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F-1011D misdrilled angle

echozulu

Well Known Member
Here's a picture: https://imgur.com/a/2K9Kud2

Way back when I did my part fabrication I misdrilled the line of rivet holes at an incorrect distance. I subsequently drilled the correct holes at the correct distance, verified they were adequately spaced apart and didn't think too much more about it.

After riveting yesterday I kind of realized this may compromise the strength of the structure.

Vans Support says they don't have any specific information on the load for that part, just that their testing assumes it's installed but they recommended to replace.

I've ordered a new angle, but would like to get some opinions from the community on whether to replace or not. .
 
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I would replace. I don't like the edge distance on the vertical bolts. Angle was shaved back too far. Those two bolts are pretty critical. They are taking a good amount of HS load. Looks too close for my comfort. It's a pretty simple replacement.

Larry
 
You're right! I didn't even think about that and I was struggling with that bolt all of yesterday (solo builder makes everything harder).

That does make the decision easier, I'll replace when the new angle comes in. Not the worst thing in the world to do, it'll just make my scrap pile a little bit higher...:(
 
How do you match drill the new angle? Pull the F-1011B and use that? Use hole finders? Replace the F-1011B along with this but then you still have the #12 holes that go into the longerons for the bolts to locate?

And yeah, the F-1011D is supposed to match the front of the F-1011B. It looks like you cut it back more than the 1/8" the plans call for. It works out to about a 9? angle.

PS, did you pull the vinyl from the F-1101C attachment bars? It might be camera trickery but it looks like it's peeling back. It's clear on those parts and really hard to see if you aren't looking for it!
 
My plan is to fabricate a new angle, clamp it to the attachment bars and the aft deck, and drill into it from inside the tailcone.

Yeah, I don't know why the cutback is what it is. I'm chalking it up to an error (on my part of course) but I don't remember ever thinking it didn't look right. But now that you mention it yeah it does not fit what the plans are calling out.

I did peel the vinyl. What you're seeing is the primer that I used flaking off I think. I used the SEM EZ Coat system for parts of my build and it didn't adhere well. While the surface is clean the ambient temperature was below 40 for much of the time I was shooting primer. Never been an issue with SEM self etching primer but the EZ Coat system didn't like it. I sanded and redid the mating surfaces for the stiffeners with SEP but not for the rest, I'm planning on using Boeshield T-9 after it's flying instead of worrying too much about primers.
 
My plan is to fabricate a new angle, clamp it to the attachment bars and the aft deck, and drill into it from inside the tailcone.

Yeah, I don't know why the cutback is what it is. I'm chalking it up to an error (on my part of course) but I don't remember ever thinking it didn't look right. But now that you mention it yeah it does not fit what the plans are calling out.

Gotcha. Those longeron bolt holes are going to be a real bear to match in place. I almost wonder if you can match the rivet holes then pull the doubler and angle off and use that to drill the holes? Or find a #12 transfer punch and use that..

It almost looks like you cut the angle 1/2" back instead of 1/8"? That part is slightly annoying to make since you cut it vertically then cut the 45? clearance notch on top. Page 10-14 has a good picture of it in place.

I only asked about the vinyl since I almost missed it!
 
Doubler is riveted in the back already, so I probably don't want to pull that off. I'm not sure how I'm going to do it yet. It might just involve me with a flashlight and a drill and hoping for the best. I think it should be ok coming from inside once I get the rivet holes drilled and cleco'd, it'll just be tight space.
 
Gotcha. Those longeron bolt holes are going to be a real bear to match in place. I almost wonder if you can match the rivet holes then pull the doubler and angle off and use that to drill the holes? Or find a #12 transfer punch and use that..

It almost looks like you cut the angle 1/2" back instead of 1/8"? That part is slightly annoying to make since you cut it vertically then cut the 45° clearance notch on top. Page 10-14 has a good picture of it in place.

I only asked about the vinyl since I almost missed it!

Use the old part to drill the new part. Cut off the vertical part of the old angle without disturbing the flat back edge (make sure new piece can lay flat on the old piece), place under new angle and butt both back edges against a straight stock that is at a 90 angle to the table and clamp. Then drill. Leave it long on both sides and then mark them for cutoff when cleco'ed in place. Holes in vertical edge should be easy to match drill.

Larry
 
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Use the old part to drill the new part. Cut off the vertical part of the old angle without disturbing the flat back edge, place under new angle and butt both edges against a straight stock that is at a 90 angle to the table and clamp. Leave it long on both sides and then mark them for cutoff when cleco'ed in place.

Larry

Ha! That's so obvious now that you say it! I was trying to find a way to save the old part for whatever reason.
 
For future reference, you are not allowed to drill into the inside radius of an angle. I will try to dig up the spec on what the leg to hole edge minimum is for a specific angle. I have seen it, but can?t recall the reference.
Good you are replacing for that and other reasons mentioned.
 
Question for MY Education

In the image posted, it looks like the 470 rivet in F-1011B aft of F-1011C was installed with the die not centered on the rivet and damage was caused to F-1011B. Is this construction acceptable? (This is not intended to cause thread creep, or insult anyone - just educate myself.)

Thanks,
Mike
 
Definitely replace....likely going to need to do additional rework after you get those rivets drilled out.

Several things in that pic need to be addressed. Do you have a tech counselor nearby to come and give it a look?
 
Also not trying to be critical

Please see title of this post -- I am absolutely not trying to be critical at all, and there is a wide range of what constitutes airworthiness and finishing techniques. I do intend this to be absolutely helpful --

- are you edge prepping your parts? There are some serious cut marks on the angle and it looks like the vertical bars and other parts may not have been prepped.
- for the bolt holes that go through the longerons, do you have any material on the longerons at all that is surrounding the bolt (where the washer/nut goes)? With the angle cut so short, I wonder if there is any material on the longeron at all or not...
- not being critical on the misdrilled holes, but they don't look deburred like one typically would do. Fair to assume that these just weren't deburred because of the misdrilled nature?

Again, please take this with the most positive, constructive tone possible. We all were new builders once, and this journey is one of continuous education. I just want to help you out with some aspects that may be a problem for you now or in the future with the build. Please reach out directly via a PM or email if you'd like to chat.
 
I will try to address what I can.

JonJay, I found what you are talking about. I believe it is in AC43.13, and they set out a minimum setback from the radius of an angle.

MJarreau, I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't think it's an issue. While the rivet itself is not up to standards per Section 5 & AC43.13, my judgement is that drilling it out tends to damage the skin and surrounding areas more. Of course, being a first time builder, judgement may be suspect and all that. You can see this issue repeat itself four more times across F-1011B & the angle. If more experienced builders think it's an issue and recommend replacement, please do speak up.

Brantel - Unfortunately, I'm in the *** end of nowhere so Vans Support & the forum is the best I have. The nearest tech counselor is 2~3 hours away. I'm planning on either moving soon (well definitely moving soon but whether or not that's before I complete empennage...) or asking someone really nicely to come do a once over once I complete the empennage. I've annotated the build plans with all the places with in my eyes suspect construction that I want a second pair of eyes on, but again, as someone with no experience I probably missed whatever I don't know/understand. Shoot me a message of what you see if you have time?

Rob - I totally understand! Edge prepping - I run a v-deburring tool around the edges to get rid of the burrs and follow it up with a pass or two of sand paper but that's it. Am I supposed to be smoothing everything out? I just get rid of anything sticking up. For the bolt holes, yes! I had to double check but I wouldn't think I'd miss something so big, then again you never know. It's right about smack in the middle of the longeron. I don't think it would be an issue since the hole is measured from the tip of the angle, and as you can see the tip is still aligned with the doubler, it's the angle that the "support angle" was cut that is an issue. Deburring - Yeah those holes are not deburred at all. I generally run a hex deburr that lightly chamfers the holes.

And yes, if there's anything else that you could see done wrong I absolutely want to know!
 
This part needs to be replaced. Not sure about the underlying structure because we can't see it. From the picture it looks like your rivet set for the universal head rivets is either under sized, or not held at the right angle. It looks like most of yours are either over driven, or set improperly, including one or more on the aft side of the HS forward spar. This is a critical part of the airframe and errors in this area must be few and far between. Find a tech counselor or DAR to take a look before you go further on this part of the build.
That's my suggestion. I'm sorry if I sound critical, but the pictures suggest a closer look.
 
Not trying to pile on even more -- but if I understood the plans correctly when I did mine, the edge of the turtle deck skin should be on the apex of the longeron angle.
 
You need some help. If a tech counsellor is too far then find a multiple builder and pay for his fuel to fly over. These parts are not acceptable, but education is at the heart of the process. Although it hurts to have your work criticized your instincts were telling you that something was wrong. Fixing this area correctly, with help, will be a satisfying and valuable experience.
 
I will try to address what I can.

JonJay, I found what you are talking about. I believe it is in AC43.13, and they set out a minimum setback from the radius of an angle.

MJarreau, I'm not sure. To be honest, I don't think it's an issue. While the rivet itself is not up to standards per Section 5 & AC43.13, my judgement is that drilling it out tends to damage the skin and surrounding areas more. Of course, being a first time builder, judgement may be suspect and all that. You can see this issue repeat itself four more times across F-1011B & the angle. If more experienced builders think it's an issue and recommend replacement, please do speak up.

Brantel - Unfortunately, I'm in the *** end of nowhere so Vans Support & the forum is the best I have. The nearest tech counselor is 2~3 hours away. I'm planning on either moving soon (well definitely moving soon but whether or not that's before I complete empennage...) or asking someone really nicely to come do a once over once I complete the empennage. I've annotated the build plans with all the places with in my eyes suspect construction that I want a second pair of eyes on, but again, as someone with no experience I probably missed whatever I don't know/understand. Shoot me a message of what you see if you have time?

Rob - I totally understand! Edge prepping - I run a v-deburring tool around the edges to get rid of the burrs and follow it up with a pass or two of sand paper but that's it. Am I supposed to be smoothing everything out? I just get rid of anything sticking up. For the bolt holes, yes! I had to double check but I wouldn't think I'd miss something so big, then again you never know. It's right about smack in the middle of the longeron. I don't think it would be an issue since the hole is measured from the tip of the angle, and as you can see the tip is still aligned with the doubler, it's the angle that the "support angle" was cut that is an issue. Deburring - Yeah those holes are not deburred at all. I generally run a hex deburr that lightly chamfers the holes.

And yes, if there's anything else that you could see done wrong I absolutely want to know!

If you would like, I could come down and take a look at what you have there. I completed my 10 earlier this year. During my build I had several tech counselors, A&P's and even FAA DAR come visit me during my build to give their blessings on build techniques and quality before moving on. That is my only qualifications but I think I can steer you in the right directions. I'm only about 45-50min flight away. Give me a call and we can set up a time one weekend coming up if you want. Cell# 443-865-9671.
 
I am by no means an expert builder and this is only intended to give you a comparison, but here is what that area looks like on my current RV-10 build....

IMG_4508.JPG


I would not move forward without consulting someone with experience. This stuff is hard to fix if you get too far down the road. I would also imagine that your tail feathers will need some attention as well based on the image you posted.

It is a right of passage.....
 
Accept Electrogunner's Offer!

I'd do it in a heartbeat and be grateful. Heck, get a ride from him while he's around!

Brian, that is just beautiful!

Mike
 
Replace

I dont replace much but that i would as it seems pretty close and likely compromises strength.
 
I had an issue with this bracket and had to redo it. I also ended up notching my longerons so I had to replace those as well. It was not a fun process but I feel better knowing it?s done per the plans.
 
I had an issue with this bracket and had to redo it. I also ended up notching my longerons so I had to replace those as well. It was not a fun process but I feel better knowing it?s done per the plans.

The time it takes to fix an issue is always less than the time consumed worrying about it! Nobody likes to step backwards. It?s no fun. However, you are now and forever worry free about it.
 
Really nice looking work. I just wanted to point out that you don't have the modified F-1012D noted in Service Bulletin 18-03-30 (https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sb18-03-30.pdf).

I also almost missed it, except that I saw Austin Manke point it out in one of his videos. Just thought I'd let ya know, in case you still have the old one.



I am by no means an expert builder and this is only intended to give you a comparison, but here is what that area looks like on my current RV-10 build....

IMG_4508.JPG


I would not move forward without consulting someone with experience. This stuff is hard to fix if you get too far down the road. I would also imagine that your tail feathers will need some attention as well based on the image you posted.

It is a right of passage.....
 
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