What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Prospective RV-10 builder

Hi all,

My first post here so please be gentle :)

I am currently working on a vans training project and I’m days away from putting a deposit on an RV-10 empennage kit from Van’s. I’ve trawled the internet and learned a great deal, many hours have also been spent watching others build their -10s on YouTube. I notice that quite a few people tailor the later stages of the kit, deleting items in favour of aftermarket parts etc but as I’ve mentioned this tends to be later on in the project.

My question is, are there any things to consider deleting/adding/adapting at Empennage stage - things that will make life easier down the line or aftermarket items that should be considered for installation at the time of build rather than having to climb in retrospectively? I’ve seen a few people touch on Servo’s, rudder trims, etc but I recall one blog I’d read which stated that he didn’t make any changes to the empennage kit because he didn’t have enough knowledge to “know” what to change.

I find myself at this stage - I don’t know what I don’t know, so any thoughts/opinions/advice at this seedling stage would be much appreciated

Thanks in advance
Matt
 
Welcome to VAF

Hi all,

My first post here so please be gentle :)


Thanks in advance
Matt

Matt, welcome aboard the good ship VAF.

Plane Around door latches, and main wheel pant mount spacers would be mandatory if I were to build another 10. https://planearound.com/shop/ols/products/new-door-180-kit https://planearound.com/shop/ols/products/two-wheel-fairing-bracket-spacers-for-rv-10-set-of-two

Machined brackets for the elevator trim cables are nice----I installed with screws and nutplates to make removal easier. http://iflyrv10.com/index.html

Geoff Combs makes some really nice accessories for the 10. https://www.aerosportproducts.com/rv-10-products/

The original style main pant outboard standoff mount was problematic----there were machined aftermarket units that were much better. I seem to recall that Vans is now making a much improved unit, you might want to look into this.

There is a thread about changes/additions for the 10----you might take a look at it.
 
Last edited:
My question is, are there any things to consider deleting/adding/adapting at Empennage stage - things that will make life easier down the line or aftermarket items that should be considered for installation at the time of build rather than having to climb in retrospectively?
Thanks in advance
Matt

Rudder trim is probably the only thing to consider at this point. I don't have it and don't miss it, but some folks like theirs.

Beyond that, everything in the tailcone is very accessible until you rivet it to the forward fuselage. So you can defer any choices on servos, magnetometer mounts, battery location, etc. until you're about to attach the tailcone, IMO.
 
Mods

Rudder trim is nice but it doesn’t affect the empennage if you use the spring bias system from aerosport products. One thing I did change was the trim cable anchors. I opted for the machined billet aluminum ones versus the welded nut stock option.
 
Rudder trim is nice but it doesn’t affect the empennage if you use the spring bias system from aerosport products. One thing I did change was the trim cable anchors. I opted for the machined billet aluminum ones versus the welded nut stock option.

Hi Rocketman,

That’s interesting - I was just reading the LAA guidance issued for builds in the UK, and it actually states that the original anchors are not permitted on projects over here. A part manufactured by iflyrv10 is permitted - would this be the item you opted for?
 
Another thing to consider is side access panels in the tunnel so you can easily service the fuel filter.

Simple to install during construction--------real pain to add after assembly of the fuse. BTDT :(
 
Hi Rocketman,

That’s interesting - I was just reading the LAA guidance issued for builds in the UK, and it actually states that the original anchors are not permitted on projects over here. A part manufactured by iflyrv10 is permitted - would this be the item you opted for?

Yes, those are the ones I used.
 
With all due respect to the LAA there’s nothing wrong with the stock WD-415 trim cable anchor bracket. Yes the original brackets, circa 2003-2005 had weld issues but Vans corrected it. I’m unaware of a single failure after the manufacturing correction on welding both sides of the anchor nut was applied.
 
With all due respect to the LAA there’s nothing wrong with the stock WD-415 trim cable anchor bracket. Yes the original brackets, circa 2003-2005 had weld issues but Vans corrected it. I’m unaware of a single failure after the manufacturing correction on welding both sides of the anchor nut was applied.

…but they are oh so ugly…
 
Hi Rocketman,

That’s interesting - I was just reading the LAA guidance issued for builds in the UK, and it actually states that the original anchors are not permitted on projects over here. A part manufactured by iflyrv10 is permitted - would this be the item you opted for?

You need to clarify with your local authorities if ‘original’ means pre 2006 (that’s my guess). As already reported, after 2006 the anchor nuts had an extra weld and to the best of my knowledge have given no trouble in service. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and, of course, this part is hidden inside. So I suspect it’s your money, your choice.
 
YGTBSM—they aren’t visible to who the F cares? I know this was tongue in cheek, but this is this the kinda thing that newbies latch onto as gospel.

Yes, it was TIC.

I opted for the billet anchors because I had the original stock versions and they were…less than optimal. I did get a more recent set and still wasn’t impressed. I used PEM nuts pressed into the billet anchors to simplify assembly and adjustment. I also don’t like the fact that the stock anchors are securing a rather hefty teleflex cable and only have about 1 square inch to spread the load. Yes, the steel part is plent strong but the aluminum plate the it is attached to, not so much.

There you have it.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it was TIC.

I opted for the billet anchors because I had the original stock versions and they were…less than optimal. I did get a more recent set and still wasn’t impressed. I used PEM nuts pressed into the billet anchors to simplify assembly and adjustment. I also don’t like the fact that the stock anchors are securing a rather hefty teleflex cable and only have about 1 square inch to spread the load. Yes, the steel part is plent strong but the aluminum plate the it is attached to, not so much.

There you have it.

I did the same. PEM nuts into the billet anchor.
The most beneficial aspect of this mod is it makes the adjustment of the trim throws significantly easier than the anchors (“ugly” or billet) riveted to the access plate.

Cheers
 
Yes, it was TIC.

I opted for the billet anchors because I had the original stock versions and they were…less than optimal. I did get a more recent set and still wasn’t impressed. I used PEM nuts pressed into the billet anchors to simplify assembly and adjustment. I also don’t like the fact that the stock anchors are securing a rather hefty teleflex cable and only have about 1 square inch to spread the load. Yes, the steel part is plent strong but the aluminum plate the it is attached to, not so much.

There you have it.

Regardless, the stock 415 bracket works just fine. 8 years flying and counting from a 2006 tailcone kit.
 
Last edited:
Never said it didn’t. I chose, IMO, a better solution.

Shall we discuss, primers, window adhesive, or heaven forbid, EFII?

Just kidding!

There’s nothing wrong, per se, going with an aftermarket part. However, like the macmaster-Carr door seals, suggestions tend to take a life of their own— the macmaster seals look better admittedly, but the stock kit seals work just fine. My quest is to differentiate, IMO, the really must have mods/substitutions, vs the nice to haves/builder preferences. IOW, the plane doesn’t fly any better/safer or is easier to maintain with this mod or that, but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
 
Last edited:
There’s nothing wrong, per se, going with an aftermarket part. However, like the macmaster-Carr door seals, suggestions tend to take a life of their own— the macmaster seals look better admittedly, but the stock kit seals work just fine. My quest is to differentiate, IMO, the really must have mods/substitutions, vs the nice to haves builder preferences. IOW, the plane doesn’t fly any better/safer or is easier to maintain with this mod or that, but if makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

I would hope that we could agree on the third latch, though!
 
There’s nothing wrong, per se, going with an aftermarket part. However, like the macmaster-Carr door seals, suggestions tend to take a life of their own— the macmaster seals look better admittedly, but the stock kit seals work just fine. My quest is to differentiate, IMO, the really must have mods/substitutions, vs the nice to haves/builder preferences. IOW, the plane doesn’t fly any better/safer or is easier to maintain with this mod or that, but if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

I 100% agree with the above sentiment but I do believe in this case this is a far superior substitute for the stock part rather than a “nice to have”. I believe it’s a must have.
People don’t install them because they look nice, rather they make the trim rigging and adjustment much more user friendly.
Unless I’m missing something about the original design WD415, my 2nd hand feedback is that rigging with them riveted to the access plate is a right PITA.
 
Matt

I'm half way through an RV-10 build in Cambridgeshire, UK so if you ever want to see a project or talk about it let me know.

The UK regulatory regime is very different to the US. We don't have an experimental category, so amateur built aircraft have to comply with the same rules as certificated aircraft, albeit with a less dogmatic approach to those reguations. The LAA administers compliance and you'll need to meet their requirements before you can fly the RV-10 if it is built in the UK. Now, the LAA is made up of good pragmatic people but they need evidence of compliance and, if there is no evidence available, they may require changes. Thankfully, there are very few such changes for the RV-10: the trim cable anchors, baggage restraint, seat belt anchors and a trim override switch. There are more if you want an IFR aircraft but those additional requirements apply to all IFR aircraft.

As others have said, there is a short list of things that you might want to change in the empennage. In addition to the trim anchors:
1. I would not install electric rudder trim in the rudder for several reasons: (a) It is a big change if you are a first time builder; (b) You'll need to get LAA approval in the UK, which will be a lot of work; (c) I don't think you need one (but opinions vary); and (d) You can easily add a spring bias rudder trim at a later date.
2. If you plan to have ILS capability, you might choose to fit the VOR antenna in the top of the vertical stab (which is where it is on most certified ight aircraft). However, there are other options (an Archer antenna in the wing tip and a VOR antenna under the empennage).
3. I would suggest you get the strobe/ELT bracket (OP-41) and the AHRS tray (OP-48) as they are cheap, LAA approved and you are likely to find a use for them. These can be fitted at a later stage but it is easier during the empenage build.
4. I wouldn't buy the wiring kit from Vans, because it's out of date IMHO but it is easier to provision for cable runs during the build than after, so take a look at OP-37 as you build.
5. Deluxe static port kit (Vans part number STATIC PORT KIT). The standard Vans static port is a pulled rivet with the pin removed and a tube pushed over the tail of the rivet. This works well by all accounts but it insulted my engineer's sense of what looks "proper" so I bought the deluxe version.

Good luck!
 
Matt

I'm half way through an RV-10 build in Cambridgeshire, UK so if you ever want to see a project or talk about it let me know.

The UK regulatory regime is very different to the US. We don't have an experimental category, so amateur built aircraft have to comply with the same rules as certificated aircraft, albeit with a less dogmatic approach to those reguations. The LAA administers compliance and you'll need to meet their requirements before you can fly the RV-10 if it is built in the UK. Now, the LAA is made up of good pragmatic people but they need evidence of compliance and, if there is no evidence available, they may require changes. Thankfully, there are very few such changes for the RV-10: the trim cable anchors, baggage restraint, seat belt anchors and a trim override switch. There are more if you want an IFR aircraft but those additional requirements apply to all IFR aircraft.

As others have said, there is a short list of things that you might want to change in the empennage. In addition to the trim anchors:
1. I would not install electric rudder trim in the rudder for several reasons: (a) It is a big change if you are a first time builder; (b) You'll need to get LAA approval in the UK, which will be a lot of work; (c) I don't think you need one (but opinions vary); and (d) You can easily add a spring bias rudder trim at a later date.
2. If you plan to have ILS capability, you might choose to fit the VOR antenna in the top of the vertical stab (which is where it is on most certified ight aircraft). However, there are other options (an Archer antenna in the wing tip and a VOR antenna under the empennage).
3. I would suggest you get the strobe/ELT bracket (OP-41) and the AHRS tray (OP-48) as they are cheap, LAA approved and you are likely to find a use for them. These can be fitted at a later stage but it is easier during the empenage build.
4. I wouldn't buy the wiring kit from Vans, because it's out of date IMHO but it is easier to provision for cable runs during the build than after, so take a look at OP-37 as you build.
5. Deluxe static port kit (Vans part number STATIC PORT KIT). The standard Vans static port is a pulled rivet with the pin removed and a tube pushed over the tail of the rivet. This works well by all accounts but it insulted my engineer's sense of what looks "proper" so I bought the deluxe version.

Good luck!


Thanks so much for your insightful and detailed response - this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for and it’s especially helpful to receive input from a fellow UK builder. Depending where abouts in Cambridgeshire you are based I would certainly be interested in having a look at your current progress and asking any other questions that may arise as a result.

The information you’ve given about my current question is really helpful, Thankyou - and again, whilst I’m aware there was a revision to the elevator trim anchors in 2006, the LAA notes I’ve read suggest that these are still not considered adequate and the machined option is mandatory?

With regards to the other bits you’ve mentioned:

Rudder trim - noted, and if I’m honest I’ve never used rudder trim anyway so not sure if the benefit, if it came to it I’m sure the spring bias option would suffice

ILS capability is something I really want to be able to achieve, so this is helpful to know. Is your build going down the same route or are you going to be operating in VMC only?

For the other 3 items you’ve mentioned, are these swaps from the standard empennage kit or additions? I assume the static port kit is a swap but wasn’t sure whether the wiring kit would have otherwise been included in the finishing kit, and likewise the tray?
 
Hi Matt

I'm in the south west corner of Cambridgeshire near Royston. Send me a PM with your details and we can link up.

I assume by "notes" you mean the LAA's RV-10 type acceptance datasheet (TADS). This lists the mandatory mods and the trim anchor is among them. You are right that Vans upgraded the original design but the TADS is explicit in requiring replacement of the updraded version. You might be able to get the LAA to approve the upgraded bracket on that basis that there are a lot flying in the US without problem, but it wouldn't be worth the effort.

Yes, I'm going fully IFR.

The strobe bracket is a Vans option (OP-41) but they now only seem to sell the individual parts. Either way, they are an add-on rather than a replacement. The AHRS tray (OP-48) is the same but Vans now seem to have discontinued it, so you'd need to ask them about that one.

The static port kit just replaces the rivets in the standard kit (part No. STATIC-KIT) so you could just add it, but I ended up replacing all of the parts in the standard kit, because I used metric hardware for the static lines due to its better availability in Europe. You will find that shipping bits across the atlantic quickly becomes tiresome and expensive.

With a couple of minor exceptions (door open warning and stall warner) there is no wiring in the standard RV-10 kit. The wiring kit (OP-37) was intended to be an optional add-on but avionics has moved on a long way since it was designed, so I suggest you don't buy it but simply use the information in it to guide you on wire routing.
 
t

I'm half way through an RV-10 build in Cambridgeshire, UK so if you ever want to see a project or talk about it let me know.

...Thankfully, there are very few such changes for the RV-10: the trim cable anchors, baggage restraint, seat belt anchors and a trim override switch.

What is the LAA's required change to the seat belt anchors?
 
They just insist that the outside of the cabin is painted white in the area where the front seat anchors bolt to the top of the canopy. They have some concern about degradation of the canopy material due to heat from the sun.
 
Considering

Considering the whole cabin top is a rollover structure, it would seem to be laughable that they are only concerned with the shoulder harness bolt locations…but I guess it’s the government so ‘nuff said.
 
Considering the whole cabin top is a rollover structure, it would seem to be laughable that they are only concerned with the shoulder harness bolt locations…but I guess it’s the government so ‘nuff said.

I agree. The tug on the belts is nothing compared to what the top must endure to keep itself intact as a rollover support. While I could see a requirement for paint (epoxy degrades from UV exposure) I don't see how it is damaged by heat. Most boats sit in the sun their entire life with no noticeable reduction in strength.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top