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Formation speed

Mike6A

Well Known Member
What speed are you guys using whendoing your thing. Just started with a group at local airport and they are using 130-140 mph.

Thanks
 
More energy

What speed are you guys using whendoing your thing. Just started with a group at local airport and they are using 130-140 mph.

Thanks

I think you’ll be more comfortable with 130-150 KTS.
 
What speed are you guys using whendoing your thing. Just started with a group at local airport and they are using 130-140 mph.

Thanks

Most of the RV Formation Teams fly to the FFI RV standards.

The maneuvering speed was originally 130 Kts / 150 mph (still is at above link). Some of the 150 HP heavy fixed pitch prop wide body airplanes would have a hard time keeping up. 120-125 Kts would typically work for them.

The "Black Jack Squadron" was using 140 MPH before FFI got started.

I retired from RV Formation flying 5-years ago. When I was leading a flight, I set my prop to 2,100 RPM and 22 inches MAP. This gave my 160 HP RV-6 122 KIAS (~128 KCAS). This power setting allowed a 150 HP RV-6A with wood prop to stay on my wing in any maneuver. The RV-6(A) has the lowest Green arc speed of any of the RVs flying formation. I did my best to keep all formation maneuvers in the green arc.
 
We use 130 knots in mixed formations of RV-6 and RV-7. A 160hp RV-6 at full-noise exceeds 150 knots, so 130 gives adequate power margin. If a wingman can't keep up they can always call "revs," and debrief it afterwards.

We also vary the speed for entry into some manoeuvres - For example, loop entry at about 145 knots, barrel roll entry at about 140 knots.

As long as lead's power setting is kept constant, wingmen don't have much of an idea of how fast they're going anyway. Diving for a few seconds before entering a barrel roll is no big deal.

- mark
 
Our Gang

Our group usually has me lead because I have the slowest RV in the group, then they tell me I’m too fast. Go figure. We typically have me leading (160 hp RV-6 with a fixed prop), a 160 hp RV-4 with fixed prop as # 2, a 180 hp RV-6 with constant speed in # 3 and a 180 hp RV-8 with constant speed prop in # 4. I run my engine at 2200 RPM which seems to get us ~110 - 130 kts depending in how well I can hold an altitude that day. Seems slow to me, but they’re all happy because everybody has a good reserve of excess power available.
 
Power, not speed.

Speed is a relative term in formation flight. If all planes are doing the same speed they can maintain formation in level flight without turning. As soon as you turn there has to be a speed differential to account for the different turn radii. Airplanes on the outside of the turn require more speed and those on the inside require less speed. The only way to change speed as a turn is initiated is to add or remove power. The power differential is more pronounced as a function of the distance from the lead aircraft. So, the leader must select a POWER setting that allows other aircraft enough power differential to stay in formation. One way to do this is to limit the RPM of the lead aircraft such that he can select full throttle and still leave enough power for all wingmen. Setting the RPM to 2100 is a good starting point. Leaders with fixed pitch props must be careful to limit throttle movement; not to much power and not to little.

Formation aerobatics add more fun and more emphasis on power management. For instance, loop entry slightly below Vne gives the wingmen enough speed over the top to have adequate control response to maintain formation. At 2100 RPM this would require a descending entry to the loop to gain enough speed. A formation barrel roll requires a smooth entry and careful G management to allow wingmen to stay in. Power reduction approaching the inverted is usually required to help wingmen out.

For the wingman, a tight formation is essential when doing formation aerobatics. Remember, the further you are from the leader the larger the power differential required because you are traveling on a larger radius on the outside of the turn or a smaller radius on the inside of the turn. For looping figures the same principal applies if you are flying lower than lead (as in close trail). (Flying higher than lead is not recommended due to loss of sight issues.)

G management for leaders carries similar considerations. Wingmen will always end up with more G than the leader so the leader must account for that and never get too close to max G. This is particularly critical when the wingmen are inverted relative to the leader.

It would be great if we all had identical airplanes but that is often not the case and a good leader will adapt his lead technique to account for differences in propellers (CS vs FP) engine displacement, sight limitations (tandem vs side-by-side) and pilot capabilities. Lead SUCKS! But a good leader will make everyone look good!
 
Thanks all, my biggest problem is staying in the turns with lead. Thank god my right seat passenger is a certified formation instuctor
 
Thanks all, my biggest problem is staying in the turns with lead. Thank god my right seat passenger is a certified formation instuctor

Anticipation…it’s the key. And you absolutely DO NOT have to baby the throttle.
 
The flight lead needs to find and set a power setting, and leave it there. Leading FFI flights at about 3000’ MSL in my -7A with 180hp IO360-M1B and Hartzell Blended Airfoil CS prop, I set 21” at 2400 rpm. That flies me level around 130 kias +/- 5 knots. I don’t touch that setting as I lead the 4-ships through FFI maneuvers, but I do have 2 exceptions.

1) For 4-ship echelon turns, I dial back 1” MAP for the sake of #4 out there on the end of the rope. On rollout, I add that inch back.

2) For fixed pitch wingies, I set MAP to 20”.

Note, however, that your entry speed for the formations in Lazy 8s becomes critical. To lead fingertips, diamonds, and close trail into the Lazy 8s, I drop the nose slightly and look for about 140kias before pulling into the lazy 8. Otherwise, your more underpowered wingmen (especially #4) will drop out.
 
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Jerry, thatsmy problem. Lead is a 8 with fixd pitch.i Either fall behind or start blowing pa#t him. I am flying a 6a with 360/cs.
 
Mike, get your formation instructor passenger to show you how to move forward and back using principles of lead and lag.

If you’re getting left behind on the outside of turns, moving higher so you’re doing the turn above plane can help. Similarly if you’re blowing past lead on the inside of turns, temporarily dropping below plane will give lead the advantage on you.

We do it subconsciously all the time to maintain constant separation in combat trail, but you can also apply the same principles when you’re tucked in close.

Generally speaking, whoever is pulling more g has a tighter radius, and is therefore covering fewer track miles.

A good way to visualise what’s going on is to think about how it’d work in a 90° banked level turn viewed looking down from directly above: if you’re on plane, the observer would see you follow exactly the same path as the lead. If you’re above plane, that means you’re on the inside of the turn, inscribing a smaller track, meaning you can gain on lead even without additional power.

It takes a bit of training and practice to get a feel for it, but once you master lead and lag you can keep up with a formation even in the presence of a significant power disparity.

- mark
 
Jerry, thatsmy problem. Lead is a 8 with fixd pitch.i Either fall behind or start blowing pa#t him. I am flying a 6a with 360/cs.
With CS prop you should have more control over your speed than lead does with a FP. Be more aggressive on the throttle, your CS prop will slow you down faster than his and it will speed you up faster than his when you need it.
 
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