What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Fun times at OSH arrival

I'd be interested to hear from someone watching on the ground Sunday/Monday, did it seem like the runways could handle more traffic? If all 3 available runways were operating at or close to maximum capacity no approach changes are going to make any difference in getting planes in any faster. No approach system is going to work if there is no where to put planes down.
 
Air Rage

I'm thinking this past weekend will be one of those "benchmark dates" when we realize the term "AIR RAGE" came into our vocabulary.
 
Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.

Thank you, James. I'm glad you're tuned in.
 
Whatever dude you don’t agree that is fine I am not going to argue.

What managers engineers have to do with flying into AirVenture is a bit of a mystery to me. I always thought it was about pilots and controllers.
 
Last edited:
Oshkosh Arrival

Saw this crazy event unfold on Flight Radar 24. Couldn't believe what I was seeing and the near misses by a couple hundred feet. I can't believe that there wasn't an accident and no one was killed.

I'll will be going again to Air Venture but will still leave my RV-4 home.
 
Whatever dude you don’t agree that is fine I am not going to argue.

What managers engineers have to do with flying into AirVenture is a bit of a mystery to me. I always thought it was about pilots and controllers.

Generally you hit the quote button so people know who you're talking to...

And the point was I was making is that's it's ridiculous to blame an entire generation for behavior you don't like. Usually it's older disparaging younger ones, it's not original, and it's not accurate. It's basically this:

297.png


ANYWAY. Nice to see they're taking these issue to heart and looking at ways to improve. Hopefully it's better by the time I plan to fly in.
 
I do NOT choose to fly close formation with people I do not know. It is very easy to fly into FDL and take the bus.

Mark
 
I'd be interested to hear from someone watching on the ground Sunday/Monday, did it seem like the runways could handle more traffic? If all 3 available runways were operating at or close to maximum capacity no approach changes are going to make any difference in getting planes in any faster. No approach system is going to work if there is no where to put planes down.

We were sitting along runway 9 for about 4 hours Sunday watching traffic land. Didn’t seem that heavy. Had quite a few lulls in traffic. Then you would see 4 or 5 planes all bunched together and usually one or two would have to go around. Weirdest thing we saw was bonanza V tail turning from left base to final then turn right and go south over homebuilt camping. Tower kept trying to talk to him but he wouldn’t respond and finally went out of sight about 200 feet above the ground. Don’t know if he got intimidated by the cross wind and decided to abort landing and just try to sneak out of the area or if he decided to try to get into the downwind for 36.
 
Last edited:
We were sitting along runway 9 for about 4 hours Sunday watching traffic land. Didn’t seem that heavy. Had quite a few lulls in traffic. Then you would see 4 or 5 planes all bunched together and usually one or two would have to go around.

Thank you. Maybe the procedure and/or the FISK controllers training could be upgraded a little bit. It obviously doesn't make sense to have unused capacity with the ADSB screenshots looking like they did.
 
Last edited:
Well that blows it for me.

After reading all this it is for sure I will either arrive well before the first Friday or not at all and come by commercial.

The one place sounded like you could land and then bus up.

Who needs to die while going to an airshow?

Dave
 
Aside from the non-go around hop-frog, if the below was a V-tail, he scared the gazinks out of tower. Sun 3:15pm thereabouts.

The notam of 1/2 mile nose to tail is generous enough. What seemed to gum up the works was ATC asking for one and at times two miles. Has that been done before?

Folks cried out for 90 knots and 1800 feet far more often than I'd heard or heard of occuring. Busting everyone en masse to a left turn back to Ripon wasted runway time.

We were sitting along runway 9 for about 4 hours Sunday watching traffic land. Didn?t seem that heavy. Had quite a few lulls in traffic. Then you would see 4 or 5 planes all bunched together and usually one or two would have to go around. Weirdest thing we saw was airplane turning from left base to final then turn right and go south over homebuilt camping. Tower kept trying to talk to him but he wouldn?t respond and finally went out of side about 200 feet above the ground. Don?t know if he got intimidated by the crow wend and decided to abort landing and just try to sneak out of the area or if he decided to try to get into the downwind for 36.
 
They need 1 mile when down to 1 runway. 2 mile spacing I've never heard of. That does bring up another point - why did Tower keep shutting down runways. Before this year, the only shutdowns I've seen or heard is when someone has an accident. Seems like Tower had to keep "fixing" metering problems created by the Fisk controller.
 
After reading all this it is for sure I will either arrive well before the first Friday or not at all and come by commercial.

The one place sounded like you could land and then bus up.

Who needs to die while going to an airshow?

Dave

It's also not bad towards the end of the week, it really is a cool experience to land and camp there. I for one hope this "bad" couple of days doesn't scare new people from flying to Oshkosh. Even with all the horror stories you read I can only find one mid-air collision in the entire history of oshkosh and both planes flew away from it. While not perfect, the Fisk arrival has proven to be (mostly) effective and safe.
 
Last edited:
Well said

I?ve flown in probably 8-10 times and will absolutely do it again. This year things were compounded because of the weather delaying all arrivals. I have landed and waited for the holds to clear once before, but usually we get right in. I would consider this year an anomaly. It is disappointing that it seemed like the ones that got in were the ones that didn?t follow instructions, but there will always be some of those. The procedure, as I see it, is adequate. There are probably over 10,000 planes on the ground here and not a single accident in all the holding. See and avoid has worked because most people read and follow the notam and they just put up with people cutting in and doing things wrong without making a big deal about it. I think the controllers did the best they could with what they had. I congratulate the controllers and the pilots for not having any mid-airs and am sorry for those who didn?t get in. It?s a great event and worth the hassle, IMHO. Blaming anybody for the trouble doesn?t do anything productive. Let?s just all continue to do what we can to be safe and suck up our pride when somebody is inconsiderate or ignores the procedure. I?m sure we?ve all done something wrong in our flying careers.

This sums it up very nicely.
Thanks Jesse!
 
Why do they continue to have both runways be fed from Ripon to FISK. The runways operate completely independent so why not have a separate VFR arrival path for 18/36? It would half the traffic heading up the railroad tracks and be simple conga line for each runway. Could even have one line be the 90 knoters and another the 135 knoters. That alone would help out the huge discrepancy of folding in fast and slow at FISK.

I know there is a thousand issues with this suggestion, but maybe they are easier to solve then the one big issue being discussed in this thread.
 
As a multi-year veteran of the Ripon knife fight, I'm glad the weather in Florida and along the entire route kept me home this year.
Thoughts for the future in no particular order:
1. Cancel all group arrivals and flybys when the weather goes south. I know all the planning they do but Plan B is single ship especially when your Notam'd time has passed.
2. Develop additional start points to augment Ripon.
3. Don't bother publishing a NOTAM because nobody seems to read it.
4. Don't bother making instructional "How to Land at Oshkosh" videos because, well, you know.
5. Every weather report published the entire week prior to opening day showed rain and IFR conditions persisting until Monday the 23rd, yet 10,000 airplanes showed up on Saturday.
6. Answers and corrective actions need be on hand when the FAA reviews the arrival footage and reads this thread and the like.
7. I'll plan for a early Thursday or Friday arrival for 2019.
 
1 runway and 2 mile spacing

From what I deduced listening on tower freq?s and watching FlightRadar24, the problem was the weather induced pouncing on Ripon, exacerbated by spam-can mass arrivals and warbird arrivals that all happened in the space of 3-4 hours on Sunday afternoon, requiring a dedicated runway (36) for the mass gaggles, and overflow warbirds onto 09. Throw in the bizjets and IFR arrivals and it was mayhem. So the runways weren?t closed, they just weren?t available or dedicated for Fisk. The controllers seemed to be doing their usual awesome job of orchestrating the madness, and yes it sounded like a few rookie controllers, but with no place to land, it?s moot. Pilots not flying properly definitely didn?t help.

If EAA doesn?t do something to minimize the number of and priority given to, or even eliminate mass arrivals entirely, the experimental community, the backbone of EAA will continue to suffer similar malaise trying to get into their Mecca. Let GA do their mass arrivals somewhere else and take the bus like lots of guys had to do this week.

Perhaps the concept of an experimental exclusive runway with easy access and entry, much like the ultra lights, but paved, should be entertained. Just thinking.

Woody

They need 1 mile when down to 1 runway. 2 mile spacing I've never heard of. That does bring up another point - why did Tower keep shutting down runways. Before this year, the only shutdowns I've seen or heard is when someone has an accident. Seems like Tower had to keep "fixing" metering problems created by the Fisk controller.
 
Brainstorming rules,... all thoughts recorded,... no criticism

After a while some wild and crazy things start to gel and point to something probably nobody thought of to begin with,...

Possible ?buckets?

1 - flow control

2 - crowd control. (Would not want to use the word enforcement)

3 - ? (Looking for others...)

Ok,... I?ll start

Flow control

- force all to land at feeder airports within 100nm ( pick a number) - ?slots? can only be assigned when on ground at airport,...ready to depart in plus X,... control slots,...so no more than Y in hold around lake

- lottery assignments on sequence,.... based on ?bids? for arrival windows,....real time updates as weather, etc impacts arrivals,.... e.g. if you flew the simulator at Osh this year,.. did you get a wait list text,...and could check real time where you were in the queue,..and could cancel if you decided to not make it

Crowd control
- ADSB has been mentioned,..hmmm

- maybe border control needs training on aircraft

- pre defined levels of action for busted NOTAM, and safety.... ( this could get me thrown off the forum)

Anyway,..you get the idea.....
 
Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.

Jim, although I did not attend this year, my previous experiences at RIPON, were just about to the limit of my risk tolerance. It seems this year would have been well beyond my comfort level. Improvements to this process will definitely influence my future decisions to fly into the show.

Thanks in advance or your help in helping to improve the safety in this area.
 
Flying into OSH.

After reading all these comments, i am very glad i didn't spend the day and hundreds $$$$ in fuel on Sunday to try and get in ( and of course all the other costs lost like hotel,rental cars etc.). Sounds to me the pilots who were cutting in should be held accountable ( and they know who they are). They should be banned from entering OSH for at least a couple of years, Considering the mess they caused and of course the possible dangers of mid airs, that should be a minimum charge.
I also agree with the Mass fly overs, If you have these type of Weather problems the highest time wasters ( Mass flyovers) should be ruled out or rescheduled.
And the B-1 Fly over that was late!! Give me a break!! Be on time or just flat reschedule. This cost all fuel and frustrating waiting again..
I also think EAA should consider Experimental aircraft have the priority over GA, after all isn't this what Paul P. started Oshkosh for???? I don't think he did it for Mass Mooney or Bonanza flyins!!!
I "Might" Try again next year, Ill wait and see what comes from this.
 
Being the Board member referenced, I can say the following:

We just spent the opening of the board meeting discussing this and will have a lot of people working to understand the root causes, propose solutions and establish action plans.

This is a BIG DEAL for us!

When there is something I can share, I will do so.

All right - here's a question maybe you can answer for us. Always before 1/2 mile in trail worked fine. This year suddenly we are 1 and 2 miles in trail, and on a single runway. You CAN NOT get airplanes into this airport with 2 miles in trail on a single runway, or even with 2 runways, as fast as you need to - much less as fast as they are coming in.

The weather was fine - what was the driving force behind 2 miles in trail?
 
Once I got past Fisk, it seemed I had the sky to myself.
Sure seemed like they could have had more planes in the pipe to 27, but that?s not my call (and Fisk is not the only pipe of arrivals). I am used to landing a thousand feet behind another plane and do it every weekend, so my level of comfort may not be the norm (and I know and trust those pilots!)

I look forward to an evolution of the procedure based on the evolution of the types of planes that are coming to Airventure

I was in the mess Sunday evening (was turned away) and Monday morning. I was hanging at 62mph multiple times:eek:. I bailed south after three wallowing laps around Rush and went high. It was like a different world at 2300?. Everyone was following the NOTAM exactly and nailed on speed and altitude. Still went around Rush four more times at least (lost count), but it was tolerable and controlled. Down low was amateur hour(s).
 
Thoughts after a couple of post-show beverages...

Maybe it?s time for the FAA to consider making ADS-B Out equpage mandatory for Airventure arrivals in 2020. It would make self-separation a helluva lot less stressful for those of us with ADS-B In and make it easier to ID the line-jumpers and others who can?t/won?t comply with the NOTAM.

Just kidding...mostly.
 
Crowds at Ripon

Would it help if ATC specifically announced "Holding over Green Lake in progress." The NOTAM is written to proceed to RIPON, then mentions what to do if holding in progress. If holding is not specifically mentioned by ATC, pilots will proceed to RIPON to see if they can get in. Once there, they either enter holding around the lake (overcrowding and hacking everyone off), try to circle around the RIPON area (dangerous), or make a right turnout with most people approaching from the south. This ATC announcement would blatantly encourage people not to approach RIPON instead of deducing it for themselves. Sunday ATC just told people "turn left and go back to Ripon and get behind someone." Shouldn't ATC be able to use ADSB data to see lake holding progress to know when to announce "OK to approach Ripon"

Also, if Ripon was only approached from the West/NW, people would be able to enter the tail of the holding pattern once open.

Just spitballing after a bad experience Sunday.
 
After reading this year?s iteration and last year?s experience it seems one recommendation makes sense. If you have a mass arrival slot or single ship (B1) and WEATHER IS ACCEPTABLE, do it. Otherwise cancel if IFR or min VFR and let the natural VFR flow occur when weather improves.

Not a silver bullet but hey it is EAA not SpamAA or WarbirdAA.

Be Safe
HR
 
Ah, the B-1 and mass arrivals "disrupting" traffic. Who is Airventure really for? Seems like that's a question that needs to be addressed. The mass arrivals idea came about simply so a bunch of Bonanza pilots could camp together. As a result, they take up prime space in the North 40 and generally inconvenience everyone else 'in a good weather year' for their own benefit. In a poor weather year? Well, you already know what happens then.

I think it's time to end the practice of mass arrivals, except in very specific circumstances. All of those groups assemble at airports close enough to OSH that a simple phone call to OSH tower before they depart would get final approval for the operation. Criteria could be good VFR at OSH, say 3000' ceiling and 5 miles vis, AND a 2 runway operation in progress at OSH, so regular arrivals could continue on one runway while the mass arrival used the other. Maybe limit them them to maximum number of planes per "wave' with the waves spaced a half hour or hour apart.

The subject came up when I struck up a conversation and had lunch with a fellow named Jake, who was making his first visit to Airventure. He was similar in age to myself, who made my first visit in 1975 and have made about 90% of them in the intervening years. I recounted to him that it was long before Hangars A,B,C & D were built. Beechcraft had a couple of airplanes and a tent about twice the size of Vans. Vans hasn't really changed their presence much.

But, Boeing and Airbus? What are they doing at Airventure? I mentioned to Jake that, at least Cirrus had their roots in the homebuilt arena, even though the first Cirrus didn't look anything like the current models.

Anyway, Jake was telling me of a Gulfstream on Monday who had to make 2 or 3 go-arounds while in the pattern and was getting increasingly annoyed over the frequency. Too which the controller simply gave a priceless response,"Welcome to Oshkosh.".
 
Last edited:
Maybe it?s time for the FAA to consider making ADS-B Out equpage mandatory for Airventure arrivals in 2020. It would make self-separation a helluva lot less stressful for those of us with ADS-B In and make it easier to ID the line-jumpers and others who can?t/won?t comply with the NOTAM.

Just kidding...mostly.

In two more years it will effectively be that way... :D
 
Many of you may know that I am the Homebuilt council chairman, am on the BOD, and am on the EAA Safety Council, left by Charlie Precourt. I want to assure all of you that this topic has been front and center in all of our meetings this week. As mentioned by many of you here, there is no single solution. We are going to be working on it as a group, and no doubt many of the suggestions mentioned here may be incorporated.

It does pain me to hear comments about not coming back. This is the greatest aviation event in the world, for everyone from Pietenpols to B-1?s, and we are victims of our own success. Throw in the weather and some other uncrontolloble events, and I agree it is a train wreck at times. We?re going to have a lot of good people working on it, I assure you. We need to continuously figure out how to safely get everyone here who wants to be here, and get them here at the right times.

There is no quick fix this week. Be patient, and be safe if you are still coming. And please don?t key the mic to express your thoughts to the controllers. I was embarrassed by some of the behaviors of our pilot community. It doesn?t help the situation.

Just remember that without you coming to Oshkosh, there is no Oshkosh. 😀
Vic
 
Brainstorming,... con?t

As someone asked before,...what are the real bottlenecks? Is it taxiing capacity,...is it hold and breakout,..is it really runway? Is it trying to have all the different kinds of traffic at once?

Flow control
- so,..windows for mixed and dedicated traffic?

- lots of folks hate the the 90 kt. What about making a 70 Kt approach lane,...easier for slow pokes,...spacing should be workable

- additional holding patterns,...with call out based on ADSB/ callsign and time to make the spacing about right,....

- or aligned so that alternating patterns could have visiblilty to merge

- as stated earlier,...additional flow options based on weather,...including cancel of mass arrival
 
But, Boeing and Airbus? What are they doing at Airventure?
I think the event has become a lot more commercialized in the last 30 years and the nature of the attendees has changed. Rather than just us mad-monk homebuilders, the event is now oriented more to the general public. What year was it...1998?...when the Concorde flew in to OSH? Now THAT was awesome! Oh look, videos!

Low pass and landing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlxc6e956lU

Takeoff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0pCWn3qLyI
 
Brainstorming, con?t

Flow control

- simple system..... using registration numbers,.... group them into 3 or 4 groups,... assign them a time slot e.g. on hour to 15 min after,.... 15 min after to 30 min after,... if your number is not up,....you are not allowed within 10 miles of RIPON,.... fairly simple check could be made at touchdown if you are in your group or not,...
 
Not just homebuilts

> I've seen a lot of good and nutty ideas on this thread. Keep it up.

> I love RVs. I'm building an RV. After looking at the 35th RV I'm ready to see something different. So I enjoy the company of Boeing, Airbus et al.

> From outside the box (way outside): Fill in the median on freeway 41 and taxi in from Fond-du-Lac.

> Build a nice grass N-S runway on the outer fringes of Camp Scholler with an alternate means of taxi to the parking/camping areas.

> As of Tuesday some areas of aircraft parking/camping were sold out. It doesn't work to have aircraft attempting to fly-in if there is no place to go. Would you be happier with a reservation and an assigned arrival day rather than breezily showing up at Ripon only to find dozens grumpily piloted aircraft in your face?

> In fact, the threat of a sell-out increases opening weekend congestion. What solution or thought process would Steven Leavitt and/or Steven Dubner propose?
 
Many of you may know that I am the Homebuilt council chairman, am on the BOD, and am on the EAA Safety Council, left by Charlie Precourt. I want to assure all of you that this topic has been front and center in all of our meetings this week. As mentioned by many of you here, there is no single solution. We are going to be working on it as a group, and no doubt many of the suggestions mentioned here may be incorporated.

It does pain me to hear comments about not coming back. This is the greatest aviation event in the world, for everyone from Pietenpols to B-1?s, and we are victims of our own success. Throw in the weather and some other uncrontolloble events, and I agree it is a train wreck at times. We?re going to have a lot of good people working on it, I assure you. We need to continuously figure out how to safely get everyone here who wants to be here, and get them here at the right times.

There is no quick fix this week. Be patient, and be safe if you are still coming. And please don?t key the mic to express your thoughts to the controllers. I was embarrassed by some of the behaviors of our pilot community. It doesn?t help the situation.

Just remember that without you coming to Oshkosh, there is no Oshkosh. 😀
Vic


Thanks for letting us know that this is on the radar, Vic!
 
In two more years it will effectively be that way... :D

OSH will still be non-rule airspace, ADS-B not required but must be operating if installed.

Seems to me that an arrival procedure that leverages ADS-B would be an SA benefit for pilots and a workload reliever for both pilots and ATC. There could still be a non ADS-B arrival procedure for non-equipped airplanes.

The FAA might get an electropolitical benefit by something like this...could encourage pilots to equip with ADS-B In and Out. Or not. :D
 
Last edited:
OSH mess

I was one of the arrivals in the mess on Saturday. After diverting into Dodge County, refueling and launching as dash 4 behind 3 other RV?s, and after 100+ Cessnas, we arrived over Ripon with the proper spacing, speed and altitude. While over the RR tracks I see a Cessna blowing by on my right, then a Navion try to do a descending rendezvous from my 7 o?clock clearly not seeing me. I bailed out to the left as the controllers announce the field is closed (1900?) and will remain closed until 140 Bonanza?s complete their gaggle arrival from Fon Dulac. ATC directs everyone to divert and come back tomorrow. Most do but I stuck around 20S of Ripon. At about 1930 a couple of planes approach Fiske and are allowed to continue up the RR tracks for a 27 arrival. I buster to Ripon, join the course rules, cleared in nobody in front of me and nearest behind me is at least 5 minutes back. Land on 27, clear to the right, double back to HS of 27 just as someone crashes a plastic plane, on the runway (1945?), runway closed again, ARGHHH! but happy I got in after 12 hours of this mess, nursing an alternator that decided to die on the way, so I?m one of the non ADSB guys not showing up on the pretty pictures.

Here?s my take away?s of the whole mess:

1. If you can?t read or follow the NOTAM then you have no business being here.
2. ATC unknowingly rewarded the non compliers and the rest of us were penalized.
3. ATC closed runway 27 arrivals for the Bonanza mass arrival. Why? Haven?t flown a Bonanza, but can they not stop on 36L/R like the rest of us?
4. If you want to fly formation with me, let?s brief before the flight please.
5. Old guy/gal, young guy/gal, doesn?t matter. I saw plenty of non compliance from all groups.
6. ATC, if you witness a NOTAM non complier like I?m sure you did, spin him out of the pattern to the back of the line. If he does not comply, hotline to the tower, ?XYZ aircraft inbound, DO NOT grant a landing clearance?. If he continues, 1-800-FAA, violation time.

Weather obviously played a big part of this weekend?s mess, but I think we can all agree that something needs to be done.

My 2 cents worth.
 
Dave Passhow and Van randomly gave my wife and I a cart ride on their way the a meeting. Van got cut off twice himself this year.

They are on it.
 
Mass arrivals

I am curious if the mass arrivals are helping or hurting the landing rate. Or are the being used by pilots to circumvent following the NOTAM and guaranteeing a no stress arrival at the detriment of others.

Being an RV builder, we should have a mass arrival for all homebuilts from 6 am Sat to 6pm Sat, all runways. Meeting point is Ripon.
 
other ideas>

change 90 knots to 70 knots, and make it clear pilots can fly whichever is most comfortable for their airplane (70/1800 or 135/2300) I'm trying to think of an airplane type that can't fly at one of those speeds comfortably. In full on-slot mode, they could just sent all high aircraft to one runway and the slow to the other would hopefully eliminate backup's behind slower aircraft. Many airplanes wide open cruise is 90 knots, that works fine ripon to fisk, but they need to slow down to land and that can really stack up the planes on final

have more services available Fri/Sat/Sun to maybe spread the crush out, it's hard to come in to camp say Friday with no food and limited other services available.

Block time for the mass arrivals is published and only available for that time, i.e. if the weather doesn't work "sorry, better luck next year; fly the fisk approach". if the weather didn't work for the mass arrival it didn't work for many single flyers too; when it clears there's going to be a mad rush no matter what changes are made. at least if the times are published the ones who read the notam won't be showing up at that time and over filling the holds.

The military jets are a big part of the draw, so I don't see them canceling those, and they're not flying without clear airspace. However, I believe i read the field closed on Monday at their "scheduled" time even though they were 30+ min out?!? that makes no sense, with ATC what it is they should be able to call ahead their arrival at least an hour early with an accurate ETA, this closing time should be put on the ATIS so approaching pilots are aware.
 
Last edited:
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.
 
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

Yes, but the fact that ATC could see your registration would make it easier for them to sequence arrivals and ask/tell the 'queue jumpers' to loop back. :)
 
This was the first year I drove. It may not be the last. I'm so sorry to read about the experiences a lot of you had. I was sitting on the ground at a nearby airport listening to ATC and talking to the people who landed after running through their fuel.

I think it's great that EAA is taking the issues seriously but unless someone can get the FAA to play ball it seems like little will change.

I do think it's unconscionable that anyone actually qualified to fly an aircraft would treat the NOTAM like some optional recommendation. A few years spent on the ground might get their attention.
 
I would think having your head down in the cockpit looking at ADS-B is the last thing you would want in this situation.

I absolutely agree that spending too much heads-down in the panel isn’t a good thing, but in a busy environment I’d be throwing away a valuable SA resource if I didn’t judiciously use ADS-B. Unless our airplanes and craniums are transparent, I guarantee our Mk 1 eyeballs wouldn’t have seen all the traffic that was around during Sunday’s furball! :D
 
This situation is clearly:

1. A significant safety issue that needs addressing,

And

2. An issue that deserves careful thought as to the possible causes, true root causes and contributing factors, and solutions.

It is great to brainstorm and throw out ideas without jumping to conclusions or blaming groups or individuals before all the facts are in and analyzed. I am sure that with the fine minds available, a good solution will be identified and implemented. At the same time, until that implementation is complete and proven, I will probably not fly in. Some things are beyond my personal risk tolerance.

I look forward to an improved future here, and encourage the EAA in its efforts to do a thorough job..
 
Sunday evening we saw a V tail Bonanza ordered to go around as he almost landed on a Cessna. So the guy powered up, starts to climb, flies over the Cessna and lands in front of him. I'm guessing he didn't understand the term "Go around".

There was that great article in Flying (I think) way back, like 10-15 yrs ago called I have seen the enemy and it is us. Looks like not a lot has changed.

Why are people NOT getting violated for doing stuff like that? If people knew they would get nailed they would be less likely to be cowboys. I know it isn't fun for the FAA to do that but if they don't...
 
This is what I?ve been saying. I?ve yet to find an RV driver that agrees.

?.I am in full agreement, and at times in heavily congested areas I turn my
screen off, and keep my head outside where it belongs. SEE & be seen!!!
 
Just curious, with all that traffic so close together how do you suppress "TRAFFIC" alerts on your ADS-B Out/In equipment? I would think it would drive you crazy, much less scare the heck out of you.

Chris
 
I was one of the arrivals in the mess on Saturday. .........
Here?s my take away?s of the whole mess:

1. If you can?t read or follow the NOTAM then you have no business being here.
2. ATC unknowingly rewarded the non compliers and the rest of us were penalized.
3. ATC closed runway 27 arrivals for the Bonanza mass arrival. Why? Haven?t flown a Bonanza, but can they not stop on 36L/R like the rest of us?
4. If you want to fly formation with me, let?s brief before the flight please.
5. Old guy/gal, young guy/gal, doesn?t matter. I saw plenty of non compliance from all groups.


6. ATC, if you witness a NOTAM non complier like I?m sure you did, spin him out of the pattern to the back of the line. If he does not comply, hotline to the tower, ?XYZ aircraft inbound, DO NOT grant a landing clearance?. If he continues, 1-800-FAA, violation time.

I think this has to be step 1. If this is not addressed nothing else is going to work.
 
Just curious, with all that traffic so close together how do you suppress "TRAFFIC" alerts on your ADS-B Out/In equipment? I would think it would drive you crazy, much less scare the heck out of you.

Chris

Heck - Half (most?) of the traffic alerts won't even be shown since the non-ADSB folks are told to switch transponders to STBY before approaching Ripon.
 
My alerts drove us nuts last year to the extent of wasted neurons clearing the alerts. Head inside to do it as well. Just like FMS entries in big airplanes one gets diminishing returns the closer to the runway when heads down & inside.
 
Back
Top