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Hypoxia Training

wawrzynskivp

Well Known Member
Hello All,

The military takes the position that hypoxia training is mandatory, they of course have the $$$ to take that position. There is nothing at all (that I can find) in the FARs apart from academic requirements concerning Hypoxia Training requirements.

Modern Hypoxia Training can be accomplished at normal pressure with a device that extracts oxygen from the air rather than using a sealed hypobaric chamber. Once can just sit in a chair and breath from a mask or sit in a room inside a tent. Such devices are now being sold for home use to folks that want to be hypoxic for various reasons such as athletic training.

Would anyone be willing to offer a personal price point ($$$) for a simple hypoxia experience simulating exposure up to say FL250? Of course this presumes the host of the training would be properly trained and industry standard safety measures would be in place.

What if it became a requirement say every four years at your AME evaluation? What would you consider to be a reasonable additional fee added to your flight physical to offset the costs of your AME keeping the equipment?

_________________________________
Vincent Wawrzynski
LtCol USMC (Ret)
F-18, F-5, F-16, UH-1, CH-53, CH-46, C-130, AN-2
RV-7 complete with all the gadgets
Aviation Safety/Accident Inspector/Investigator
San Jose State University Aviation Faculty
 
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brown paper bag. have a friend standing by to take it off.

better yet, put the bag on and sit in the plane and see how long it takes you to become confused and unable to find the buttons and switches. wear an O2 meter.

do not attempt this procedure without supervision.
 
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free FAA option

The FAA FAAST guys have a portable chamber they take on a road show. I think it's called PROTE?

Anyway, I'd check it out, they probably post a schedule somewhere.
 
I did the training just like the rest of us Air Force pilots. I would say it was a good experience and training though I stopped trying to be a Superman after my first shot and would “gang load” immediately at the first symptom.

Trying to recreate military training for the general population though would be expensive and burdensome imo.
 
Would anyone be willing to offer a personal price point ($$$) for a simple hypoxia experience simulating exposure up to say FL250? Of course this presumes the host of the training would be properly trained and industry standard safety measures would be in place.

What if it became a requirement say every four years at your AME evaluation? What would you consider to be a reasonable additional fee added to your flight physical to offset the costs of your AME keeping the equipment?

I wouldn't pay for high altitude training if optional, but other's might, and I think it would be fine if that was available for people to optionally sign up for a ride. Like most of General Aviation, I don't fly high enough often enough to make hypoxia training even remotely important to my flying. As to the equipment necessary for the average AME to have it in his office....I can't even imagine that that would be financially practical, nor practical from a liability standpoint.
 
I wouldn't pay for high altitude training if optional, but other's might, and I think it would be fine if that was available for people to optionally sign up for a ride. Like most of General Aviation, I don't fly high enough often enough to make hypoxia training even remotely important to my flying. As to the equipment necessary for the average AME to have it in his office....I can't even imagine that that would be financially practical, nor practical from a liability standpoint.


Thanks, for the reply.

IRT C.A.M.I: Most .gov sponsored physiology training is shut down right now.
 
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Thanks, for the reply.

IRT C.A.M.I: Most .gov sponsored physiology training is shut down right now.

Indeed it is - I just called them and got a recording including "All training is on hold for coronavirus, please check back frequently" (paraphrased)
 
The FAA FAAST guys have a portable chamber they take on a road show. I think it's called PROTE?

Anyway, I'd check it out, they probably post a schedule somewhere.

I did the FAA FAAST seminar about 5 years ago. Very well done and useful. It was a half day class. They use the O2 extraction method in the portable chamber.
 
Ah shucks. You don't need a chamber just get a friend whom you trust, have him ride a safety pilot on oxygen after 10,000 feet and wear an oxy meter and keep climbing till you can't. 16,000 is enough for a half hour.
25 years ago my then 13 year old son started turning blue after 8,000 and at 10,000 he was real loopy. Nose down cause he couldn't stand it anymore.
Find out for your self. Kinda fun. Of course have an extra cannula for your brain when you realize altitude really does affect ones judgement.
Just go scuba diving deeper than say 100 feet on regular air and see how your judgement is REALLY screwed up.
I realize they aren't the same, But, the brain can really trick you.
Now that's why you dive with a buddy.
Been there done that. Been screwed up, But survived.
Art
 
The FAA FAAST guys have a portable chamber they take on a road show. I think it's called PROTE?

Anyway, I'd check it out, they probably post a schedule somewhere.

I did it a few years ago when it came through Dallas. They had the chamber with an oxygen level equivalent to an altitude of about 25,000 ft. No one made it past about 30-45 seconds after the mask came off. Very eye opening.
 
I took the FAA-CAMI sponsored training at Andrews AFB in Maryland. They ran us through classroom training and labs for several physiology subjects, including vertigo, hypoxia and night vision. A really great experience. The training included a chamber ride to 25,000 ft with pressure demand masks, then removing the mask and doing math problems and other mental challenges. It was all filmed so we got to see how we deteriorated without supplemental O2. It enabled each person to learn how they experienced hypoxia and recognize their symptoms. A full day.
The cost was $50. You end up with a CAMI certificate.
 
I took the FAA-CAMI sponsored training at Andrews AFB in Maryland. They ran us through classroom training and labs for several physiology subjects, including vertigo, hypoxia and night vision. A really great experience. The training included a chamber ride to 25,000 ft with pressure demand masks, then removing the mask and doing math problems and other mental challenges. It was all filmed so we got to see how we deteriorated without supplemental O2. It enabled each person to learn how they experienced hypoxia and recognize their symptoms. A full day.
The cost was $50. You end up with a CAMI certificate.

Thanks for the reply
 
brown paper bag. have a friend standing by to take it off.

better yet, put the bag on and sit in the plane and see how long it takes you to become confused and unable to find the buttons and switches. wear an O2 meter.

do not attempt this procedure without supervision.

can I get at least one smile from this suggestion? :)
 
The FAA FAAST guys have a portable chamber they take on a road show. I think it's called PROTE?

Anyway, I'd check it out, they probably post a schedule somewhere.

They do and it is free. It is suspended right now due to Covid but it will be back.
 
Just go scuba diving deeper than say 100 feet on regular air and see how your judgement is REALLY screwed up.
I realize they aren't the same, But, the brain can really trick you.
Now that's why you dive with a buddy.
Been there done that. Been screwed up, But survived.
Art
In that setting, likely not hypoxia, or even oxygen-related…more likely nitrogen narcosis. But yeah…sometimes we might not recognize when we aren’t quite hitting on all cylinders. That would be the real value of hypoxia training.
 
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In that setting, likely not hypoxia, or even oxygen-related…more likely nitrogen narcosis. But yeah…sometimes we might not recognize when we aren’t quite hitting on all cylinders. That would be the real value of hypoxia training.

Spot on. Easy to relate Hypoxia Training to High Altitude Training, but it's not the same thing anymore. Consider that Hypoxia is a condition that has many possible causes, and really only one solution. My worst hypoxic event happened at 34' MSL, and it would have been fatal had I not caught my personal symptoms of hypoxia onset immediately. I believe I owe my life to hypoxia training.

I gather there is no $$$ value seen in hypoxia training, and perhaps even a little resistance out there from a few. Nothing wrong with that, it's good to know. This is the value of this forum!

Interestingly, there is an appetite for buying and installing Carbon Monoxide detectors. To my knowledge none of them can tell you if their detector has failed. A few models have internal circuitry tests but that isn't the same as knowing if it will detect CO. I have had a few of them fail recalibration and did not know I was using a dead detector.

The FAA lists four ways to get Hypoxia in the cockpit, various medical interests list a few more. The kicker here is that you can succumb to Hypoxia at 2,500' MSL without Carbon Monoxide being the culprit. If you know your personal hypoxia onset symptoms (and they are unique to each of us) you may have time to get to more oxygen. Or, at least get on the ground where taking an unintentional nap isn't as big a deal. Initially it doesn't matter what the cause of the hypoxia was, what matters is immediate recognition and proper response.

A device can't reliably do that for you, but you can if you know how.
 
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Here you go Steve

brown paper bag. have a friend standing by to take it off.

better yet, put the bag on and sit in the plane and see how long it takes you to become confused and unable to find the buttons and switches. wear an O2 meter.

do not attempt this procedure without supervision.

I think you know the brown bag technique helps restore normal blood CO2 levels for hyperventilation victims, it doesn't really deplete blood oxygen.
 
I applaud the OP. Any form of hypoxia training and education is a really good idea for anyone that spends time above 8,000 IMO. I went through the chamber at Edwards AFB along with a full day of ground school and it is still, the best single day of education I've ever received.

Just a few months ago, the high altitude _Expert_ in the skydiving world died of hypoxia preparing for a tandem jump with a passenger. Tom Noonan. It has rocked the skydiving world that someone so experienced could become a victim. It looks to me like pretty much everyone on the craft was hypoxic and they narrowly avoided a major disaster.

Again IMO, hypoxia is a silent killer and probably the least understood and underappreciate danger in aviation.
 
I think you know the brown bag technique helps restore normal blood CO2 levels for hyperventilation victims, it doesn't really deplete blood oxygen.

if there is more CO2 and not enough oxygen then where does the O2 come from?

perhaps it leaks in from the eye holes you cut in the bag?
 
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If we weren’t dealing with COVID right now the FAA has the portable chamber they bring to Oshkosh. Very eye opening, and kinda fun.
 
if there is more CO2 and not enough oxygen then where does the O2 come from?

perhaps it leaks in from the eye holes you cut in the bag?

It’s a quantitative thing. There is so little CO2 in the atmosphere that increasing it to 1% is a big change. True, you displace some O2 (but mostly N2) but that is a very small overall change.
 
brown paper bag. have a friend standing by to take it off.

better yet, put the bag on and sit in the plane and see how long it takes you to become confused and unable to find the buttons and switches. wear an O2 meter.

do not attempt this procedure without supervision.

The problem with this approach is the build up of CO2.

The lack of oxygen is not what gives us that choking, or gasping sensation, its the build up of CO2.

A paper bag over the head will cause CO2 buildup as well as O2 depletion, and so your hypoxia will be accompanied by the gasping "out of air" sensation.

In a true hypoxic experience the body is able to offload the CO2 effectively, so there is no sensation to tip you off.

That is why it is so insidious, and why it kills so many re-breather divers for example.
 
Mount Everest- 29,032', has been climbed without oxygen. Many factors involved.

By people that either have spent at least 6 weeks at or above base camp (19,000 feet) or people that have lived in Nepal since birth.

This is why I find the FAA requirement for oxygen at various altitudes and durations so laughable. Someone who lives in Leadville and someone from Key West have the same legal requirements, but likely very different biological responses. Oxygen really should be required in conjunction with a pulse oximeter rather than an arbitrary altitude requirement.

I've lived at 5700 feet for 20 years and I've gotten altitude sickness once, and it totally sucked. I've also climbed 14ers with people who flew in from the coasts for a group event. Some were totally fine to the summit while some had to turn around, very sick, at 12000-13000 feet. Just saying "Oxygen for everyone" at a specific altitude completely ignores that there are some who might have real problems well before that altitude and may not be ready or prepared to deal with it.
 
Forty years ago I was lucky enough to get seriously hypoxic and live to tell about it. It was a delivery flight, a new Dakota to the east coast of Florida. Big motor, easy to climb for a tailwind. Everything was just fine, except for a vague sense I was missing something. And the left wing kept getting heavier.

I don't know how long I stared at the fuel gauges before a little voice said "Hey, why does that one read full and the other almost empty?" Finally I realized I had not been switching tanks on the half hour, I was hypoxic, and needed to descend.

When rational thinking returned, I also realized I had no idea where I was. Dialed two radials just in time to avoid flying through the Orlando (then) TCA.

Scared me pretty good. A little higher and I might have kept going out into the Atlantic.

Yeah, if you get the chance, do the training. My personal symptoms are narrowed vision and vague anxiety. Best if you learn yours.
 
If we weren’t dealing with COVID right now the FAA has the portable chamber they bring to Oshkosh. Very eye opening, and kinda fun.

Yes, the FAA does bring the PROTE chamber to KOSH during the airshow. Not sure when it will ever return again given the PLANdemic. It stands for Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Environment. It is essentially a nitrogen enriched environment simulating an altitude of 26-29,000' altitude. You must have a current medical to enter the chamber and the entire visit the flight surgeon is there with you. It lasts for 5 minutes MAX! Most people are done before a minute or two! It makes no difference whether you are a tri-athlete or crack addict. Everyone succumbs!

This video is of my FOURTH ride in the chamber with a couple other RV guys. This guy in the video is callsign "Yah Dude". As you can see Yah Dude gets asked a simple conceptual question and cannot process the information.

Here is the video...
https://youtu.be/fZdOcasg-FA

As Dan H says, get to know your symptoms. Like being drunk, everyone handles it differently.

It is a great learning experience!

If the FAA ever sets it up again, DO IT!!!

:cool: John
 
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I have been through the chamber ride 2 times.

Very good 2 day classes.

Worth the trip if you can schedule it.
Rapid decompression was very eye opening.
FL 250 to sea level in 1 second.

Paper work in chamber is REAL.

You will not have casping of air. You can’t move or function with no O2
At altitude.

Boomer
 
This is why I find the FAA requirement for oxygen at various altitudes and durations so laughable. Someone who lives in Leadville and someone from Key West have the same legal requirements, but likely very different biological responses. Oxygen really should be required in conjunction with a pulse oximeter rather than an arbitrary altitude requirement.

I've lived at 5700 feet for 20 years and I've gotten altitude sickness once, and it totally sucked. I've also climbed 14ers with people who flew in from the coasts for a group event. Some were totally fine to the summit while some had to turn around, very sick, at 12000-13000 feet. Just saying "Oxygen for everyone" at a specific altitude completely ignores that there are some who might have real problems well before that altitude and may not be ready or prepared to deal with it.

I'd have to agree with this. Even people that live at altitude are affected differently. After living at 4700' for the past 4 years, routinely skiing and biking above 8000', and routinely flying at 9.5-12.5k I've found myself to be very tolerant to the lack of oxygen and have yet to experience hypoxia symptoms. But that doesn't mean it won't happen someday. The biggest difference I notice is how much quicker energy is zapped when flying above 10k. 5-6 hours at those altitudes without supplemental oxygen and I'm beat.
 
Superman gets hypoxic

Back in 2005 while teaching skydiving at Skydive Elsinore we had a student come through the program that was quickly given the nickname Clark Kent. Late 20s, 6'3'', 220lbs, non smoker, handsome and in incredible physical condition. Picture Christopher Reeve in the late 70s. On one of our jumps the entire rest of our twin otter load was doing a big-way formation with a DC-3 in trail. 50 people from two planes making one jump together and him and I making our own afterwards. It took a long time to get to jump altitude - 14,000msl - with the DC-3 lagging behind and then forming up and then just when they were ready to jump ATC put us on a traffic hold. We ended up being at or near 14Kft for a long time. Let's just call it 29 minutes. I was beginning to experience light symptoms of hypoxia - a flush feeling and anxiety are my first two symptoms - but no vision symptoms yet. Being concerned about hypoxia I started querying Clark and educating him about hypoxia. He'd never heard of it before. When he started getting euphoric and then his lips took on a blue tinge I called off the jump and told the pilot we were going to land with the airplane. He insisted he was perfectly fine and was clearly disappointed but didn't put up an argument. As we started descending and his O2 saturation level started returning to normal and then 5 minutes on the ground, he was an instant convert. We gave it another 20 minutes and then went back up and made the jump and he did great. He became the hypoxia spokesman for the dropzone after that. "Hey look, if it can happen to me..." he would tell people.
 
Back in 2005 while teaching skydiving at Skydive Elsinore we had a student come through the program that was quickly given the nickname Clark Kent. Late 20s, 6'3'', 220lbs, non smoker, handsome and in incredible physical condition. Picture Christopher Reeve in the late 70s. On one of our jumps the entire rest of our twin otter load was doing a big-way formation with a DC-3 in trail. 50 people from two planes making one jump together and him and I making our own afterwards. It took a long time to get to jump altitude - 14,000msl - with the DC-3 lagging behind and then forming up and then just when they were ready to jump ATC put us on a traffic hold. We ended up being at or near 14Kft for a long time. Let's just call it 29 minutes. I was beginning to experience light symptoms of hypoxia - a flush feeling and anxiety are my first two symptoms - but no vision symptoms yet. Being concerned about hypoxia I started querying Clark and educating him about hypoxia. He'd never heard of it before. When he started getting euphoric and then his lips took on a blue tinge I called off the jump and told the pilot we were going to land with the airplane. He insisted he was perfectly fine and was clearly disappointed but didn't put up an argument. As we started descending and his O2 saturation level started returning to normal and then 5 minutes on the ground, he was an instant convert. We gave it another 20 minutes and then went back up and made the jump and he did great. He became the hypoxia spokesman for the dropzone after that. "Hey look, if it can happen to me..." he would tell people.

Kudos to Marshall for not only being prepared to recognize early onset Hypoxia, but also for having the moral courage to make a very disappointing decision for a large group! It's one thing to understand what the right thing is, it's a whole other thing to do it.

Safety is no accident
 
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Kudos to Marshall for not only being prepared to recognize early onset Hypoxia, but also for having the moral courage to make a very disappointing decision for a large group! It's one thing to understand what the right thing is, it's a whole other thing to do it.

Safety is no accident

Thank you for the kind words. To be clear, the 50 experienced jumpers were all licensed, had their own jumpmaster, and continued with the jump. I have no doubt that most were hypoxic to some degree. It was only my student and I that returned with the airplane.

Having said that, I am the guy you mention with the moral courage and have demonstrated it on multiple occasions. It doesn't seem complex to me. When lives are at risk you do the right thing, you step up and you speak out and the consequences be damned.

Good luck with your efforts. From your list of accomplishments and credentials you clearly are making a difference and you are right...Safety is no accident.
 
Another method for induced hypoxemia: I had a boss who literally sucked the oxygen out of the room. 2 minutes with the guy and everyone in his presence would be gasping for breath. The only recourse for survival was an emergency exit to the bathroom or an important private phone call. Probably overall more dangerous than true hypoxia but just as effective training.
 
The FAA portable chamber was back at Oshkosh this year. I went through it a couple of times and had very minimal symptoms, only tunnel vision. The good news is that it is free. The bad news is that they only take five at a time maybe twice and hour so less than 100/day. If you want to do it you have to be at the door by 8:00. They open at 8:30 and the slots are taken almost immediately.
 
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