Alternative manufacturers of quick build kits?

Looking at the long lead times of quick build kits and the lack of flexibility regarding modifications, like the use of a different primer, I was wondering if there are possibly alternative manufacturers of quick build kits, using the Van's slow build kits as a basis?

I searched the forum, but came up empty handed, except of builder's assist programs, which are however rather high $$ and which follow a different approach.

Oliver said:

Looking at the long lead times of quick build kits and the lack of flexibility regarding modifications, like the use of a different primer, I was wondering if there are possibly alternative manufacturers of quick build kits, using the Van's slow build kits as a basis?

I searched the forum, but came up empty handed, except of builder's assist programs, which are however rather high $$ and which follow a different approach.

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The Quick Build Kit from Van's is FAA approved as an Amateur Built kit. If built by an individual for education and recreation, there should be no issue getting it licensed as an amateur built experimental.

Any RV kit other than an RV kit from Van's is considered Paid Commercial Assistance and should not be issued an airworthiness certificated as Amateur Built aircraft according to the way the FAA orders are written.

IF someone were to build a partial RV for themselves only to decide they did not want to finish it because they lost interest or had health issues, they could sell the project to another to finish and as long as all parties involved in said project were doing the build for education and or recreation.

RV6_flyer said:

[...] Any RV kit other than an RV kit from Van's is considered Paid Commercial Assistance and should not be issued an airworthiness certificated as Amateur Built aircraft according to the way the FAA orders are written. [...]

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Thank you for the explanation, this explains why I couldn't find any providers...

On the other hand, builders farm out individual aspects (admittedly usually small items) of the build process all the time. Isnt what really matters that 51% be amateur built? What rule says you can't buy a kit from vans and then have someone build your wings for you?
Not arguing, just thought more clarification would be helpful here.

Erich

erich weaver said:

On the other hand, builders farm out individual aspects (admittedly usually small items) of the build process all the time. Isnt what really matters that 51% be amateur built? What rule says you can't buy a kit from vans and then have someone build your wings for you?
Not arguing, just thought more clarification would be helpful here.
Erich

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FAA Order 8130.2H:
456. Determination of Major Portion. The determination of major portion is made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items. The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than 50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” An aircraft is not eligible for an experimental amateur-built certificate under § 21.191(g) if the major portion of the aircraft fabrication and assembly tasks are not completed by an amateur builder(s).

If your "wing builder" does it for free, then they are "amateur builders" and will be listed on the 8130.12 as a builder of the aircraft.
If they charge you a fee. then they are not "amateur-builders" and their work doesn't count toward the 51%. If you start out with a quick-build kit, there's not much wriggle room to stay within the 51%.

Now that I think about this topic, I am getting curious.

My understanding is, that the approval of the quick build kits is based on the evaluation whether at least 51% of the work remains left to do for the builder. Couldn't a third party provider buy a slow build kit from Van's, assemble it to exactly the same stage as the factory qb kits and then sell it? The work which is left to do for the builder, would then be the same as with the factory qb kit.

Also, how do the builder's assist programs fit into this? What is the legal basis for their involvement, as they offer their services for compensation?

Page 3 and 4 preview plan... Commercial assistance. It's right there. I was lookin into the same path. Then I posted, got smacked, decided to read the pp set and wahlah there it was the whole time. Read the pp set then re read then re re read. Then go make a plane.

Oliver good point, if a shop could get a contract or license agreement with vans maybe! I'm not a lawyer. I would like to hear from anyone who has been cited for any part of this violation. How does the faa bust you? Drones. Tapping bank accounts,emails,phone calls.

QB Kits

QB Kits are already assembled by a third party over seas.

Mel said:

FAA Order 8130.2H:
456. Determination of Major Portion. The determination of major portion is made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items. The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than 50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the ?51-percent rule.? An aircraft is not eligible for an experimental amateur-built certificate under ? 21.191(g) if the major portion of the aircraft fabrication and assembly tasks are not completed by an amateur builder(s).

If your "wing builder" does it for free, then they are "amateur builders" and will be listed on the 8130.12 as a builder of the aircraft.
If they charge you a fee. then they are not "amateur-builders" and their work doesn't count toward the 51%. If you start out with a quick-build kit, there's not much wriggle room to stay within the 51%.

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I don't believe he is referring to starting out with a QB kit and then paying people to assemble more of it. He just means having somebody else assemble the first 49%, to the same stage of completion as they come from Van's people overseas. Either way, a third party is building 49% of the plane for a fee. In one case, you pay them through an intermediary (Vans), in the other you contract with them and pay them directly. Seems the same to me. Now, the FAA has already agreed that QB kits as supplied by Vans meet the 51% rule. You may have to be prepared to show that your build also left you 51%, and I'm not sure how involved that would be...

Chris

Agree with Chris. If no more than what Van sells as QB was done by your contractor, and by definition, it would then meet the 51% rule. You'd just need to show that to the FAA, instead of it getting an automatic pass. Any other restriction would mean that the FAA is giving the kit manufacturer a financial advantage in the marketplace.

If Van picks a different sub to assemble QB kits, do they start over with 51% cert?

rv7charlie said:

Agree with Chris. If no more than what Van sells as QB was done by your contractor, and by definition, it would then meet the 51% rule. You'd just need to show that to the FAA, instead of it getting an automatic pass. Any other restriction would mean that the FAA is giving the kit manufacturer a financial advantage in the marketplace.

If Van picks a different sub to assemble QB kits, do they start over with 51% cert?

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You are correct, the builder would have to demonstrate based on the new checklist that they meet the major portion requirement.

If Van's picks a different sub they don't need to start over. The sub doesn't have the "approved" QB kit, Van's does. Eye could have 25 different subs build em and they would still qualify, assuming they are built to the same point not as the approved QB kit.

Commercial Assistance centers start with a slow-build kit and do something similar to a Quick-Build, but it must meet the major portion requirements. This is true for those who are following the letter of the law. The 2-weeks-to-taxi program is one of these programs, but not for RV's. There are also "hired guns" who build for hire and have ways to stay under the radar.

If the FAA doesn't believe a kit meets the major portion requirement, they refuse to issue an Airworthiness Certificate, plain and simple.

As with everything, there is a fair amount of "interpretation" still used by the FSDO or MIDO office issuing the Airworthiness Certificate.

YellowJacket RV9 said:

[...] He just means having somebody else assemble the first 49%, to the same stage of completion as they come from Van's people overseas. [...]

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Exactly. Only with a shorter lead time than the Van's qb kits and the freedom to chose a different primer and possibly some other options...