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When tower says "Roger" instead of "Hold short"

Ed_Wischmeyer

Well Known Member
So here’s a real gotcha, could happen to any of us at a towered airport. I happened to see this one happen, as I had just landed and taxied clear of the runway involved and was still on tower frequency…

A student pilot on first solo was ready to take off on Runway 1. Downfield is the crossing runway, 10/28.

Student: Cessna XXX, ready for takeoff
Tower: Roger
Student: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna XXX
Another aircraft: Hey, tower, that Cessna just took off without a clearance!

Contributing factors to this event:
* Student mis-understood what tower meant by “Roger,” and more on that below
* Controller did not catch that the student’s readback was incorrect – this is called a “hearback” error.
* Tower procedures: when a plane calls in ready for takeoff, controllers here sometimes say “hold short,” sometimes they say “roger.”

At a Runway Safety Action Team meeting on Thursday, we found out about the tower procedures and a lot of us were surprised. When the tower says “hold short,” they have to wait for the pilot to acknowledge. When the frequency is busy and they don’t have time to wait for a pilot’s acknowledgement, they simply say, “Roger.”

Just to make it interesting, sometimes I’ll call in “holding short” and tower will tell me to hold short, and that means I have to repeat the hold short instruction.

Lots of contributing factors on this event, and we’ll forego discussing “who was at fault.” That’s not the point.

The good news is that there was no loss of separation, and that everybody is working together to make sure this doesn’t happen again. Hence this posting.

And quite by accident, at last month’s VMC/IMC Club meeting, present were the student pilot, his instructor, the tower controller on duty, and me.

Admin, please don’t move this post. It could save somebody’s certificate or even a bunch of lives.
 
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If you call the tower and ask for takeoff clearance, or any version of that, the only correct responses are either a clearance for takeoff or direction to hold short. Roger would never be appropriate and, in 20 years of airline flying, I've never heard a tower respond in that manner.
 
If you call the tower and ask for takeoff clearance, or any version of that, the only correct responses are either a clearance for takeoff or direction to hold short. Roger would never be appropriate and, in 20 years of airline flying, I've never heard a tower respond in that manner.

"ROGER" means, "I have heard your transmission and understand."

Small correction from the "Pilot/Controller Glossary" in the AIM: Roger, "I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question."

It doesn't mean anything else, PERIOD! It is NOT a clearance and it does NOT mean YES!
 
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the only correct responses are either a clearance for takeoff or direction to hold short.

I say lineup and wait 300 times a day. I must be doing it all wrong.

Roger would never be appropriate and, in 20 years of airline flying, I've never heard a tower respond in that manner.

Ehh your likely not listening good enough then. Happens all the time where I am at. If you think I’m playing the hold short game with China Southern, and trying to decipher if they read back hold short of the left or the “reft” you don’t know how the game works.

Roger works all day and requires zero read back, which increases workload and freq congestion. The failure here, was the controller not catching the read back.
 
Pretty clear the pilot is at fault here. Anything other than "clear for takeoff" is not a clearance for takeoff; same goes for landing.

If tower was busy, they could also just not respond entirely, which I think would be acceptable on a busy airport; I'd wait 60 seconds, then try again.

But, it was a student pilot, so :\
 
Thanks

Ed, thanks for posting. Something I hadn’t thought about. Now I’m aware forever more. Appreciated.

Jim
 
If you call the tower and ask for takeoff clearance, or any version of that, the only correct responses are either a clearance for takeoff or direction to hold short. Roger would never be appropriate and, in 20 years of airline flying, I've never heard a tower respond in that manner.

I’m with Randy. 20 years of USAF, 15 years of airline, and a few thousand hours of GA flying all over the world and I’ve never heard a tower controller reply “ROGER” to “Ready for takeoff.” I do understand what ROGER means, but it just doesn’t seem appropriate in this case.
 
Yeah - they both screwed up :( More importantly though - if it's not a clearance, then it's not a clearance! Like Mel said (and smt6 expands on), ROGER is NEVER a clearance to do anything, it just means that what you have said has been heard.
 
I’m with Randy. 20 years of USAF, 15 years of airline, and a few thousand hours of GA flying all over the world and I’ve never heard a tower controller reply “ROGER” to “Ready for takeoff.” I do understand what ROGER means, but it just doesn’t seem appropriate in this case.

Jerry (and Randy), I personally wouldn't use ROGER in this instance. I would've used STANDBY, just to be "more" clear. But then again, 33 years working with a significant number of foreign pilots "taints" my judgement ;)
 
Roger

I hear "Roger" pretty often...

The ONLY three words you should ever hear from a controller prior to beginning a takeoff roll are "Cleared For Takeoff"; yes, there can be qualifiers like "fly runway heading" or "RNAV to XXXXX" but the actual clearance comes with those three words...
 
If that is the only mistake this student makes in his first 100 hours, he will be way ahead of most of us.......:rolleyes:

I can also imagine the controller had to answer a few questions...:eek:
 
The potential for confusion or misinterpretation is very high and a risk of an incursion is high in this situation. None of which should be new news to the controller. Saying Roger does not ensure separation. Ensuring separation is their job. The controller should have acknowledged the request with standby hold short. This is an example of ATC failure to maintain positive control and ensure separation.

Of course the student and CFI bear responsibility as well.
 
Controllers overseas, towards the Asian Continent, will often reply with "Roger" to a request. At first hearing, it was ambiguous, and especially frustrating when you're trying to get a reroute or altitude. But then I realized that is how they will say "Stand by". In some cultures not having an answer is embarrassing, so instead of nothing you get the "Roger". Not so much in the states.

Last night I watched an aircraft fly a visual in front of us to the wrong runway until we asked "which runway is the aircraft ahead using?". The controller replied "19C, the left is closed... " Soon after the aircraft ahead drifted over to 19C. You can just about guarantee that they expected 19L, as usual, and didn't hear the clearance for the runway they were assigned (other factors aside).

When you build expectation bias into your mindset, you're setting yourself up for failure. Hear what was said, not what you wanted to hear. It's been around as long as planes have had radios.

Overall the OP example is just sloppy comms, new pilot skills, and pilots not holding the controller responsible for their part. Hopefully the "student pilot" in all of us learns a little from this event ...

Cheers
 
I have herd “roger” to ready for takeoff and don’t have a problem with it, but, I do have a problem with..” cross 30 north of Dallas, at 17 thousand, turn left to 330, altimeter is 29.96, slow to 250, and squawk 2976.” Especially the older I get.
 
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IMO the key is understanding standard phraseology, knowing what to expect, and reacting appropriately. If the instruction is non-standard AND you’re not 100% sure what was meant, best to query and not assume that you and the controller are on the same page.

I get Freq congestion can make it worse, especially in the air. But To be honest I’m more concerned that the student took the runway and departed, despite what was said by the controller leading up to the event. Had he waited and asked for clarification, the worst that would have happened is planes behind him would have been annoyed.
 
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In most countries the phrase “ready for take-off” is banned in favor of “ready for departure”.
Is this also the case in the US?
The only time the pilot uses the word “take-off” is to confirm a take-off clearence.
So any time a controller hears a pilot speaking about “take-off” the awareness is triggered.

Another change in that same batch was “line-up and wait” i.s.o. “line-up and hold”
 
I have herd “roger” to ready for takeoff and don’t have a problem with it, but, I do have a problem with..” cross 30 north of Dallas, at 17 thousand, turn left to 330, altimeter is 29.96, slow to 250, and squawk 2976.” Especially the older I get.

^^^This is so true!^^^

Flying at my night job we’ll often say “we’ll be ready at the end” to keep the beast moving. The reply is normally “cleared for takeoff runway XX”, “hold short of runway XX landing traffic” or “Roger”. Only one of those replies is a clearance to depart.

From the pilot/controller glossary:
ROGER− I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.

When in doubt verify the instructions.
 
Universally misunderstood word.

"ROGER" means, "I have heard your transmission and understand."

It doesn't mean anything else, PERIOD! It is NOT a clearance and it does NOT mean YES!

I agree with the last statement, I was taught that "ROGER" means I heard you say something but not necessarily that it was understood.

My (1986) training environment was in Mobile AL, a busy environment with a very diverse mix of private and military pilots for all branches, experience from zero to the max and from worldwide. Controllers were both civilian and military in a compact area. I would hear "roger" often. My instructor says, when you hear that do nothing different, it is not a clearance or acceptance or even that they understand, so find out.

Thanks FOGHORN for the book definition, it is consistent with my training, albeit ancient.

The student, instructor and tower would all do well to never use that word in a busy environment. YMMV
 
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Never hurts to clarify what was meant. I'd rather have a grumpy controller come back and "yes that's what I said..." than to bust a clearance.
 
I agree

This sounds like a student error. Period.

Lesson learned, move on.

The real lesson and reminder here is that no matter who (tower or pilot) says what (roger, cleared, hold short), we must take care of Job #1: Keep your head on a swivel, expect the unexpected, and assume NOTHING. Fly the airplane and realize people WILL make mistakes. Deal with any administrative problems later.

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6....
 
Funny but busy environment is where I hear that word the most…

(after I read what I wrote below, I realized that it's a little disjointed and a bit of a ramble, but... ;)

A little more "clarity" to the group here... Priorities are EVERYTHING in ATC, especially when it's getting busy - keeping 2 birds from scraping paint vs a wind check for example. I would typically use STANDBY instead of ROGER if I didn't have time to answer the transmission with "more" because I don't want the pilot to ask again or expand on his request. ROGER is OK too, but leaves a little bit of a window for more verbiage from the pilot to follow (clarifying their request, etc). If I say nothing (the worst "response") - the pilot assumes I haven't heard him (or her) and keys up and makes me even busier by repeating their transmission. Frequency management is a BIG part of the whole ATC picture when it starts to get busy or the controller NEEDS to do something other than attend to "your" particular request. The key here, and it occurs and works beautifully 99.99% of the time, is everyone LISTENING to what is said, and not having a biased ear. Yes, we "expect" certain clearances, responses, standard phraseology, etc - but don't let that lull you into complacent listening. I'd much rather clarify our comms than try to fix what happens with misunderstood comms - whether I'm in the Pilot seat or the ATC seat.
 
In most countries the phrase “ready for take-off” is banned in favor of “ready for departure”.
Is this also the case in the US?
The only time the pilot uses the word “take-off” is to confirm a take-off clearence.

It should be, but possibly only international experienced US licensed pilots know ICAO standards and the differences that keep english language secondary pilots safe.

https://skybrary.aero/articles/standard-phraseology.

https://skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/3584.pdf

https://www.easa.europa.eu/downloads/24164/en

Our pilot controller glossary is not ALWAYS as drilled in from day one as it should.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/pcg_4-03-14.pdf

Sloppy R/T will bite, hard.

I prefer NORDO gliders to learn how to fly, then add an engine, then go Class D then C then B- a bite at a time. Others start in Class C and do fine- it's all up to the instructors' standards trained.

With a "zipper" just turn me to a "dot";)
 
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If the entirety of the the local controller's transmission was "roger", then the controller was not talking to the student pilot. The controller wasn't talking to any airplane in particular. This is where the training of this student failed. An ATC transmission/ instruction isn't valid without specifying the callsign of who it is intended for.
 
A bit late to the discussion, but I once had this happen. I had taxied to the runway and there was traffic waiting to takeoff on a taxiway that entered the runway from the opposite side.

Me: NXXXX on Charlie at runway 19 ready for takeoff.
Tower: ( in fast and unclear speech) I your request.

Obviously not clearance to takeoff, but also not sure what was to come. I asked for clarification and he then told me to hold short in a fast and almost unintelligible manner.

Not a lot of tower communications going on but seemed non- standard to say the least.
 
Humans

I guess the lesson is that ATCers are human and we should assume that they might make a mistake from time to time. They are certainly counting on us to clarify things when needed. Listening to an ATC podcast has taught me a lot about what’s happening on the other side of the mic.
 
“…… Wait”

I need to brush up on my “lineup and wait “or anything with the word “wait”because I’m used to “position and hold “or “hold short “

Ive been flying into San Diego Montgomery Field which is a lot busier than Bakersfield and I’ve had a problem understanding if “lineup and wait” is the same as “position and hold” out on the runway.

So thank you for those terminology links.
 
…..and I’ve had a problem understanding if “lineup and wait” is the same as “position and hold” out on the runway.

So thank you for those terminology links.

Yes they are the same. But ‘position and hold’ was removed from the official lexicon something like a decade ago. Where have you been hearing this?
 
I assume its just me flying out of uncontrolled fields and having forgotten the change (brought to my attention) during some obscure Biennial flight review— thanks.
 
I assume its just me flying out of uncontrolled fields and having forgotten the change (brought to my attention) during some obscure Biennial flight review— thanks.

More obscure trivia: The official FAA words are now ‘Flight Review’, due every two years. Lots of pilots still use ‘BFR’ (it does have a nice ring to it) but apparently too many pilots spelled ‘biennial’ as ‘biannual’ which, of course, is every 6 months. Personally I miss ‘BFR’.
 
I need to brush up on my “lineup and wait “or anything with the word “wait”because I’m used to “position and hold “or “hold short “

"Position and hold" became "Line up and wait", but "hold short" has always been "hold short" (nothing to do with "position and hold"/"line up and wait").
 
Thanks— so i went and read the incidents regarding “line up and wait”. And I’ll continue to hold short.

I quit flying right around then(restarted 2014) so makes sense.
 
Since we have controllers commenting, if ATC says to me, LINE UP AND WAIT, is it ok for me to NOT move and stay behind the hold short line?? This way I can see planes on the approach, rather than turning my back on the approach by taxiing on to the runway and stopping???
 
Since we have controllers commenting, if ATC says to me, LINE UP AND WAIT, is it ok for me to NOT move and stay behind the hold short line?? This way I can see planes on the approach, rather than turning my back on the approach by taxiing on to the runway and stopping???

No, you are expected to abide by their instruction (unless "Unable" for some reason), where the Tower is supposedly watching your back. They are trying to expedite the traffic flow.

But this brings up two safety concerns by using "Line Up and Wait" and conducting "Stop-n-Goes" (not "Touch-n-Goes") at Non-Towered Airports, where no one is watching your back. These operations have been brought over from Towered Airport operations and are not appropriate for Non-Towered Airports.
 
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I know I’m barking at the moon, but man “roger” in response to “holding short” is a very bad idea. If there is congestion, that’s the worst possible time to avoid giving clear instructions. It takes almost no time at all to say “holding short”, and there’s nothing to confuse a student about it.
 
I know I’m barking at the moon, but man “roger” in response to “holding short” is a very bad idea. If there is congestion, that’s the worst possible time to avoid giving clear instructions. It takes almost no time at all to say “holding short”, and there’s nothing to confuse a student about it.

+1. If the faa wants pilots to use standard phraseology, they should demand it from their controllers. Like several others, I’m based at a controlled field, and have never heard a ‘roger’ instead of a ‘hold short’.
 
I know I’m barking at the moon, but man “roger” in response to “holding short” is a very bad idea. If there is congestion, that’s the worst possible time to avoid giving clear instructions. It takes almost no time at all to say “holding short”, and there’s nothing to confuse a student about it.
Something to consider in this scenario is that the controller transmitting "Roger" may NOT have been in response to the student reporting ready for takeoff. It is quite common for a controller to be working combined frequencies, often Local and ground combined, sometimes two Local (Tower) freqs plus Ground combined. For example, airport ops truck reports clear of the movement areas, at the same time the student reports ready... Controller responds with "roger". That is why it is IMPERITIVE the pilot must hear an aircraft I.D. as a part of the controller's transmission, before accepting it as a clearance or instruction. If the controller does not respond to your call with your I.D., then you have not established communication.
 
Can I ask if the student actually used the phrase “take off” as in “ready for take off”? I was under the impression that the use of “take off” in this way had been stopped by just about every country?

Where I’m from “take off” is only used twice. Once by the controller issuing a clearance. (Cleared for take off) and second by the pilot responding to the clearance. In every other instance “take off” is referred to as “departure”. This was in response to the Tenerife accident in the 70’s where 2 B747s collided on the runway.
 
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