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Old 08-09-2023, 06:10 PM
N8DAV8R N8DAV8R is offline
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Salida, Ca
Posts: 258

Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
+1. Did your friend fully understand that he was not insured while giving you dual? That unless absolutely free, it was illegal unless he had a waiver (‘LODA’)?
Is this true, at least as of the of 2022? I thought the LODA is no longer necessary in this context (builder receiving instruction in his plane from a CFI). Also, that the instructor can charge. It's the airplane that there can't be compensation for. This fix was pretty big news.
Nate - Salida, Ca
RV-12is - N8183H
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Old 08-09-2023, 06:40 PM
spatsch spatsch is offline
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Denison, TX
Posts: 437

Originally Posted by KatanaPilot View Post
Still have not seen any language prohibiting training during Phase I using the additional pilot program.

If the additional pilot is a CFI, can meet the requirements of the insurance company and be a named pilot on the policy - I think this could be a workable solution for builders needing transition training.

We can argue whether or not training on the first flight is appropriate and/or prudent - but I don't think it would violate any rules.
Only a workable solution if the insurance doesn’t consider it gross negligence. Otherwise the whole activity is not insured no matter who is named on what.

Will also be difficult to decide after the flight if it was training or not at least in rv-8s and 4s if the qualified pilot was sitting in the back seat during the crash.. .

Oliver Spatscheck
RV-8 N-2EQ -- flying 500+ hours
Fokker DR-1 N-22EQ -- under construction
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Old 08-09-2023, 11:42 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 9,271

Originally Posted by N8DAV8R View Post
Is this true, at least as of the of 2022? I thought the LODA is no longer necessary in this context (builder receiving instruction in his plane from a CFI). Also, that the instructor can charge. It's the airplane that there can't be compensation for. This fix was pretty big news.
What I’m talking about here is the ‘old’ LODA, originally issued around 2008 or so, which allows the EAB owner (who is not the pilot receiving instruction) to charge someone else for the use of his airplane. It’s limited to transition training only.
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Old 08-17-2023, 08:18 PM
gmcjetpilot's Avatar
gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,014

Originally Posted by KatanaPilot View Post
my assumption is that transition training given during Phase I by a CFI also meeting the requirements of the Additional Pilot or Observer Pilot would be permitted.

If this is not the case, I am looking for specific FAA guidance that prohibits it.
You are asking for FAA guidance in the wrong place. You will not find it explicitly. I guarantee if you ask a FAA inspector they will not know or err on the safe side and say no. EAA Legal is a good place to call. I did not read every comment in this tread. Some may be right but saw a few that were wrong. I see from your profile you are experienced and asking for others.

You can have TWO people during Phase 1.... that has changed from a strict solo test pilot or strict required crew.

Transition training in experimental is very simple, assuming plane has airworthiness, you need to be current, qualified (including tail dragger) before doing transition training. I can not do tail dragger training in an RV.

Why do you NEED transition training? Insurance. It is NOT required by FAA and it is not a check ride or even an endorsement (although I give one). It is just training.[/color]

If you are a private pilot, current medical, (3 to/ldg) last 90 days, current medical, even if you have ZERO RV time you can do the first flight. If it is a tail dragger you need an endorsement, high performance you need that aS well. I can tell you initial tail dragger training in RV is a no no regardless of phase 1 or if plane has airworthiness. However transition training is not a FAA thing, a T/G endorsement is.

YOU WANT TO BE SAFE... Drop a few grand on transition training with the many that offer training and the plane. Most notably Van's factory transition pilot Mike Seager. I never flew with him, but I talked to him on the phone about qualifying as a Van's Transition instructor (see my ratings in signature). I don't need Van's approval to do transition training in my plane or others, only to be put on their website. See van's web site for instructors in your area. I have talked to a few. They get a LOT so be ready to pay a lot. Let me say this. I called a local FBO for rental for the first time in decades (have my own plane so not a renter). A C172 and instructor was $240/hr wet. So expect to pay for transition training. Now if you just want a GEN FAM flight to go fly your own plane you can do that. If you want "assurance for insurance" expect 5 to 10 hours. Then you can fly your own plane, even for Phase 1. I was at an airport with 19 RV's and so I had opportunity to go for rides (with pilot owner not CFI). So I felt comfortable flying my plane from for first flight,.

I do transition training. I can fly off your Phase I. You could sit in the other seat. There is nothing keeping me letting you manipulate the controls while I take flight test notes, if you are a current pilot, class/catagory, qualified in high performance and/or tail draggers as applicable. Can you log it? That is between you and your logbook, but I would not GIVE DUAL instruction or log or endorse it. Would you learn, sure.

I flew my first RV 28 yrs ago with no RV time except for one back seat ride in an RV4. It was all aerobatics including intentional stall inverted. It really gave me confidence in how the plane flew. I was VERY current in taildraggers, aerobatics and flying a lot. The first flight in the RV and the next +1000 all have been uneventful. The plane was not insured at that time.

So in my opinion UNLESS you get a GO from FAA in writing. No amount of rationalization will suffice. If you want to sit in on Phase 1 and get experience so you can either
1) After X hours of sitting crew while I fly Phase 1, you could fire me and go fly it yourself, with no insurance of course.
2) Even if you have 5 hours of dual in RV with some ad hoc endorsement, some (most?) insurance will not insure Phase 1.
3) If you want to be proficient and qualify for insurance, go get transition training before you fly your plane.
Raleigh, NC Area
RV-4, RV-7, ATP, CFII, MEI, 737/757/767

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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 08-17-2023 at 08:32 PM.
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