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Landings in an RV3

FireMedic_2009

Well Known Member
I bought an RV3B a month ago and flown it about 20 hrs. My landings have been hit or miss, majority of them have been a miss and is frustrating. I got my tail wheel endorsement from Jan Bussell in a 6. I had about 10 landings in my 7 before the fuel line disconnected and totaled it in a field in Feb (I'm still pissed). It seems the 6 and 7 were easier to land than the 3. With Jan I did 70% of my landings as 3 point. With the 7, I did wheel landings. With the 3 I've attempted about 40 landings and only landed 25% or less and almost all of them wheel landings. A majority of my landings have been in windy conditions and many with xwinds. The stick is short where my arm is resting on my leg so it doesn't need much movement. Early on I was using full flaps on landings but it seems using 1/2 flaps works a little better. I've never had problems landing a trigear even in strong xwinds. I owned a 6A for 4.5 yrs and over 450 hrs and had only a hand full of go arounds. My stall speed without flaps is 54mph, half flaps 53mph, full flaps 51mph. I try to come in over the numbers at 85mph and hold it off and touch between 75-70mph. It seems pretty easy to bounce, much easier than the 6 or 7. It certainly hasn't been fun to say the least. I've only tried a few times to 3 point because it would be a lot harder to recover from a near stall bounce than a wheel landing bounce. Looking for advice
Thanks
 
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I'm certainly no expert, but...

I'm guessing the stall speeds you've listed below are backwards. You'll probably have lower stall speeds with full flaps versus no flaps.

Assuming your full-flap stall speed is 51mph, I'd suggest an approach speed of 1.3x this speed = 67mph. This would be an approach speed, not a touchdown speed. If you're touching down at 70 to 75mph, I'd suggest that this is too fast. Ideally, I would think you'd want to touch down much closer to your stall speed for the configuration you've chosen. I'd say within 0 to 5mph of your stall speed would be more appropriate.

If you try to touch down too fast, the plane isn't finished flying and will have a tendency to bounce or be very pitch sensitive and I could see where it wouldn't take much to get some porpoising going on by forcing the plane to land when it's really not ready.

I'd practice flight at 67mph at altitude. I'd then practice flying a rectangular pattern at 67mph in your landing configuration. I'd then slow to within 5mph of your unaccelerated stall speed and practice making a few turns left and right to learn what the controls feel like very near your stall speed.

All this will make you more confident when slowing the plane for a normal landing. The exact feel and "float" won't be the same for an actual landing due to ground effect, but the "at altitude" practice is certainly better than nothing.

I find that most of my better landings happen when the plane and I *both* decide it's time to quit flying at approximately the same time. It's certainly possible to roll the mains on at higher speeds, but I definitely must continue to fly the airplane while the mains are on the ground until I slow to a non-flying airspeed.

I bought an RV3B a month ago and flown it about 20 hrs. My landings have been hit or miss, majority of them have been a miss and is frustrating. I got my tail wheel endorsement from Jan Bussell in a 6. I had about 10 landings in my 7 before the fuel line disconnected and totaled it in a field in Feb (I'm still pissed). It seems the 6 and 7 were easier to land than the 3. With Jan I did 70% of my landings as 3 point. With the 7, I did wheel landings. With the 3 I've attempted about 40 landings and only landed 25% or less and almost all of them wheel landings. A majority of my landings have been in windy conditions and many with xwinds. The stick is short where my arm is resting on my leg so it doesn't need much movement. Early on I was using full flaps on landings but it seems using 1/2 flaps works a little better. I've never had problems landing a trigear even in strong xwinds. I owned a 6A for 4.5 yrs and over 450 hrs and had only a hand full of go arounds. My stall speed without flaps is 51mph, half flaps 52mp, full flaps 54mph. I try to come in over the numbers at 85mph and hold it off and touch between 75-70mph. It seems pretty easy to bounce, much easier than the 6 or 7. It certainly hasn't been fun to say the least. I've only tried a few times to 3 point because it would be a lot harder to recover from a near stall bounce than a wheel landing bounce. Looking for advice
Thanks
 
corrected flap/no flap speeds

Yep, you are correct. Good catch. Corrected in original post
Thanks

I'd tried early on 1.3 x stall speed and the sink rate is pretty steep in the low 60's so I increased it, but maybe I have keep some power (1000 rpm or so) and cut it just before landing to keep the tail in a low position to roll on the mains. I've noticed it's pretty hard to loose altitude in a 3 without the speed increasing. I also want to be able to land without having any power, rather without adding any power, in case I have an engine out.
My plane idles at 800.
 
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I aim for 60kt (69mph) on approach, carrying some power in the full flap configuration. I pull the power as I cross the end of the runway and like Rod says, the aeroplane and pilot seem ready to land about the same time! I always aim for a three-pointer. Any faster, and it floats.
 
A RV-3 will drop fast when slow on landing with only idle power. I carried about 1200-1300rpm on final until touchdown and wheel landed 95% of the time. It wheels on much easier than three point but that might just be me. My speeds were different from yours and I suspect some instrument error, stall with full flaps 62 mph.
 
Don't overthink it, nothing really unique about landing the -3 compared to other RVs or tailwheel airplanes. I'm sure it won't take much time to get comfortable. The -3 is obviously much lighter than the -6/7, so will change direction and bounce a little quicker. I had a -3 for a while and put about 1,300 landings on it. I'd mostly 3-point from an idle power approach, a touch over 70mph, and full flaps. Mine was light though and you'll need to find the approach speed that works right for you in your airplane. Don't focus on others' indicated numbers.

Lots of people like to carry power down approach, but I've always flown the pattern the same whether I'm in a J-3 Cub, RV, Pitts, or Cessna - idle power abeam the threshold and turn/slip all the way to the numbers. The RV is not a jet, you can easily fly an idle power approach. Sink rate is all relative. RVs descend faster than Cessnas but much slower than Pitts'. :) Everyone has a different comfort level with this. Just find the airspeed that gives you enough time to safely find the runway without excessive float. In RVs, be careful not to attempt to arrest high sink rate from a very low idle approach speed with elevator alone. The stubby aspect ratio wings build a lot of drag at high AOA. Fly your approach/round out profile so that you've smoothly shallowed the glide into ground effect without having to make a sharp change in your descent rate close to the ground. This will let you enter ground effect at a slow airspeed without a high descent rate, which cuts down on float and makes things easier, IMO.

And RVs recover bounces much easier than most airplanes because of their power to weight ratio and wings that just want to keep flying, so don't be afraid of the possibility of recovering a bounced 3-pointer. Hold your pitch attitude, blip the throttle and it settles right down. You will get comfortable with this. Until then just power up and go around. It'll rip you back into a safe climb out in an instant.
 
There is no need to fly lower approach speeds if not comfortable or is not working for you yet. However, you need to know that in those cases, you will need to bleed off more speed in the flare. You may want to practice holding a couple feet over the runway untill the nose starts to rise. You will eventually get a feel for how much the nose should rise before you allow the wheels to touch. If the nose is not pointing up some, it means you have too much lift and the likelihood of a bounce is too good. You only want the wheels to touch down when there is not an excess of lift that will allow the plane to keep flying. gusty days are often different and you can't let the nose up as much, as you need more lift margin to deal with disappearing gusts. So, you eventually need to find a way to feel for the ground in those situations and uses the elevator to avoid lifting back off.

Just general guidance here. I have never landed a tailwheel plane, so take it for what it's worth.

Larry
 
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I didn't mention power settings at all in my post and I really should have.

Yes, everyone loves to boast about making power off approaches all the time and how that's how they do it in a cub or a Pitts or a whatever. I've flown all that stuff and yes, I can make a power off approach in any of it, but realistically, it's not always possible or even advisable.

Until you are comfortable with your -3, I'd suggest carrying a little power almost all the way to the ground. This will give you a bit of a buffer and will give you a little time to mentally absorb the whole landing process. Work up to being able to do a power off approach and be able to do it as the situation warrants.

Reduce the power to idle as you're less than a foot off the ground. Increase back pressure as the speed decays and you simultaneously reduce power. From a technical standpoint, you're losing lift as speed decays and adding lift with increased angle of attack. The trick in any good landing (tailwheel or not) is to balance this increased angle of attack with decreasing speed to achieve a near zero descent rate just as the mains touch the ground. Once you get the knack of achieving this balance, landing any plane from an Airbus to a Midget Mustang is very achievable.

The sink rate in my -3 with a 3-bladed constant speed prop at idle is significant. Yes, I can and often do, conduct power off approaches, but it's not where I started. It's kinda like taking a newbie to the shooting range... I wouldn't have them start shooting with their non-dominate hand even though it's a good idea to become proficient with both hands at some point.

You'll want a complete bag of tricks in your repertoire, but knowing what technique to use for the given situation is a significant part of being a good pilot.
 
Thanks for all the advice

I appreciate all the help. I think with the 6 and 7 I was rolling on the wheels with a fairly level attitude but I think with the 3 I need to do it with a low tail (Higher angle of attack)
 
Landing

My preferred method is 70-75 kias on final with full flaps and throttle just cracked open. Then around 50’ close throttle and gently flare looking for zero rate of descent a few inches above the runway. You will use up 100-200 feet while you gently feel for the runway. You will be set up for a tail low wheel landing. Don’t let the nose get too high. I find the -3 to wheel land easier than a -7, but probably more due to individual aircrafts cg. This is not a great short field technique, but very comfortable from my 2400’ home base and results in very smooth landings.
 
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Landing an RV3

This is purely my opinion, having time on RV4 and RV6's this is what I have found operating of short grass strips and I always land 3 pointers. I have found that the final approach needs to be on the back end of the drag curve and not too fast, if not they will float on round out.
What I have found on my RV3 being lighter in comparison to the bigger models is that it bleeds energy faster on round out so there is a smaller margin to get the round out float attitude & speed just right to settle on the ground without arriving or floating an extra 50 yards.
I would suggest a little power on approach helps until you get used to it.
Due to this faster energy bleed off the wind conditions on approach have a more pronounced effect so approach speeds must take this into account otherwise it will be an arrival. So approach speeds need to change to take into account close to ground wind gradient.


Hope this helps
Purely my take on things.
Rob
G-BVDC
 
Just Wheel Land it. I said pretty much the same thing as you to my buddy Charlie when I first got my -3 and that was his advice, "Just Wheel Land It". So I did and I never looked back. 500 hrs later I still couldn't do a respectable 3 point landing but I could "Wheel it on" under almost any conditions. Granted, I never tried to put it into a ~ 1500 ft strip but that was never a concern for me anyway.
 
My -3 taught me to wheel it on in a tail low attitude. A very slight forward slip just before touchdown gets one foot on the ground and the other follows, which helps reduce bounces. Then the rudder dance begins. I’ve made approximately two perfect three-pointers in a thousand landings in the -3. A very slight touch of power just before touchdown helps flatten the sink rate so you can chirp it on.
 
RV-3 landings

I’ve had my -3 for about 2 1/2 years and here’s a few tips that I’ve learned. Go to altitude and instead of practicing stalls, practice approaches with the focus on how light the control forces get at slower and slower speeds. Pay attention to how much elevator authority you have to arrest, say, a 500 fpm descent. I think one gets used to that firm, responsive stick feel in cruise and come time to land, the light stick forces can be a bit unnerving. Unless it’s a gnarly crosswind I use full flaps in which case I use partial and choose when to set the tail down. I plan on a tail low wheel landing, which easily converts to a three point, if desired. And lastly, I make a conscious effort to put one main down first (only an inch or two). This mental exercise focusses my attention to really controlling the plane (useful in crosswinds, etc.) and transfers the bounce (if there is one) to the other main rather than to the tail. Remember, practice makes permanent, not perfect; so practice well and enjoy!

Dan
 
RV3 landings

Coming over the numbers at 85mph, you'll float and float. I'll use 80 in turbulence or a hard x-wind, so to have plenty of airspeed left to deal with gusts or a bounce. But in normal conditions (calm or light turbulence or light x-wind), I like 70-75 over the numbers, full flaps. I don't know what speed it touches down at because I've never looked, keeping eyes outside (I've never had a ground loop either, maybe that's one reason why) (... knock on wood!) If it's a short field, then I'll want to drag it in with power, full flaps, low and slow, 65-70 over the numbers. Once you pull power in that configuration, you'll be down and on good. With a short field and an obstacle on the approach, you'll have to come in steep with idle power, but I wouldn't get much below 70 over the numbers like that.

Here's what I typically do for landing: 80 on downwind with half flaps, 75 on base, put in full flaps, turn final, 70-75, get on centerline - at this point, the key is to keep the descent rate going through the round-out, the flare. As you bring the stick back slowly, say to yourself: "descend, descend, descend ...", and keep the sight-picture descending until something touches, either all three, or just the mains, or a single main, or whatever, it doesn't matter. In turbulence, it is pretty difficult to say "Now, I am going to do a 3-pt", or "I will do a wheel landing this time". Just setup the airspeed/glidepath/centerline, keep the descent rate going, and then let the airplane do what it is going to do, then adapt to it.

No-flaps landings need a shallow approach with power, come over the numbers at 80. The nose will be high and the airplane will feel mushy and fast.

Half-flaps is much more like full-flaps than no-flaps.

Full flaps, the approach is much steeper, and you'll slow down faster once down and on.

The biggest challenge landing taildraggers with no visibility forward in 3-point is: running out of airspeed when still three feet up. That's why I like 70-75 over the numbers: if I bounce it like that, I'm often able to wrestle it down after adding a little throttle.

To stay fully current, I need at least three touch-go's every week. After 4000 landings in my -3, it's always a challenge to do it well.

Lastly, you might consider getting a longer control stick, sized to clear the lower edge of the instrument panel, but no shorter. The idea is that a short stick with small movements is harder to work with than a long(er) stick with wider movements. (then again, the 'Eze canard airplanes have a Very short stick on the console, which works fine, so to each their own.)

Oh, and do your flight reviews with an experienced RV pilot - even after 20 years you'll learn plenty about how to fly your RV!

- Steven

(1400 RV3 hours - another one on Wednesday!)
 
Update

I was idling at 800 rpm. I lowered the idle to 650 or so and what a huge difference. Much more consistent in my landings
 
Having flown some hours on my new RV-3, I feel it was easiest to start with 3 pointers first. After getting comfortable with them, I went back out and flew patterns for 2 hours, focusing on wheel landings, and by the time I was done, it was a nonissue. After getting them down, I can tell you that I find them actually easier now and prefer the visibility of the wheel landings. Full flaps provided a very level attitude on the wheel landings, but as soon as I dumped the flaps, the tail drops; be ready for that and make sure you plant the tail. In some cases with higher winds, I find half-flaps useful. I won't sit here and boast that I have a ton of TW time, but I can't tell you that the RV is without a doubt the easiest TW aircraft to fly that I have had experience with. It penetrates the wind much better than the carbon cub I did my training in, and I have found the crosswinds to be much more of a non-factor. Van got it right...
 
I've only got ONE RV3 landing, so I can hardly qualify myself as an expert on topic.

Having said that, as landings go, I've found the '3 quite a pussycat to put down. Especially considering that I had to dead-stick her in - as described in this post on close calls/ lessons learned: https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=186101

Looking forward to putting in some more air time and landings.....
 
IMO, CG plays a sizable role in how the three lands. If I understood you right, you find the wheel landings preferable. I am going to take a guess that your CG is forward. If that is true, perhaps try securing a gallon or two jug in the back of the baggage compartment. My guess is you will find three-pointers come much easier.
 
The first landings in our new to us RV-3B all were at least good. 7 out of 10. Without having flown any other RV before. Not perfect, but still good. When I had a 6 month phase of close to non RV-time and flying time in general I did still pretty fine in other airplanes, but failed good landings in the 3. Scored about 5-6 out of 10. No go-arounds, but bouncy landings or landings that carry you away 10 ft of the centerline or so.

Last weekend I went for 5 touch and gos and 2 full landings. I figurred what I did wrong in the last landings: I simply flared the airplane out too much. It dropped the last few inches and started bouncing. On time it even dropped one wing right in the moment it touched down. Big No-No for me personally.

I flew the next landings ~5 mph faster in short final with minimum throttle and cut the throttle right when I was about to touch down just a few mph above stall speed and let it settle itself on the runway, mainwheels first - tailwheel touched down just 2 seconds later. Thats the way 80% of our 3 landings get at least 8 of 10 points. ;)

It's no real wheel-landing in my opinion, but a 90% flared landing, which will almost never bounce and and a bonus: Gives you better visibility that almost fully stalled.
 
Sometimes the first couple of landings in a new plane are the best ones you make. After that you aren't paying as much attention and get a little too relaxed.
 
Sometimes the first couple of landings in a new plane are the best ones you make. After that you aren't paying as much attention and get a little too relaxed.

Absolutely true - at least for me! I am fortunate too get to fly lots and lots of widely varying types of airplanes, and I often say that the best landing I ever make in a type is the first one. After that, they begin to degrade. Of course, once I really start fling a type regularly, just turns around, and I can consistently land them….but there’s a very, very short honeymoon followed by a difficult period, followed by making peace….

Paul
 
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