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Van's Update (2/17/22): Manufacturing changes, price increases, and more

greghughespdx

Well Known Member
Advertiser
We've posted an operational update on our website.

In this post:

  • Update on manufacturing process changes and planned delivery of kits
  • Update on forthcoming video communications
  • Heads-up on RV kit (this Sunday) and Lycoming engine (March 15th)
  • Collection of QB deposits and our deposit policy
  • Limitations on raw materials and crating materials sales

Keep an eye on our YouTube channel ("PUNCH THAT SUBSCRIBE BUTTON!" ... and we will of course post here on VAF when it happens) for a video update later next week from Rian and me, as well as a discussion with one of our incredibly talented engineers on the testing he performed for our analysis of laser cutting parts.

TLDR; Kits are being manufactured in much larger numbers and batches; price increases on kits this weekend, Lycoming engines increase on March 15th; a couple of new video updates in the works; etc.​
 
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Thanks for the heads up.
Does the price increase also affect individual parts in the online store, or is it only for main kits and engines at this stage?
Paul.
 
two 10% increases in 8 months from Lycoming... ouch.

Dang, that is painful. These frequent and substantial price increases are not doing experimental aviation any favors. Part of me wonders at what level of opportunism are these increases? 20% in less than a year isn’t trending with the averages.
 
Greg,

Are engine and avionics kits for the RV-12iS increasing this weekend, or just the airframe kits?

Thanks,

The RV-12iS powerplant kit is included in the price change, it’s getting the lowest percentage increase of any of the kits at about 2.5%. Note that the Rotax engine is just one (major) component of the power plant kit. Lots of other parts in there, too.

The avionics kit prices won’t be changing on Sunday night, but they likely will see an increase sometime next week or the week after. The avionics kits review process is pretty complicated so we do that separately.
 
Dang, that is painful. These frequent and substantial price increases are not doing experimental aviation any favors. Part of me wonders at what level of opportunism are these increases? 20% in less than a year isn’t trending with the averages.

I think a substantial part of what we’re seeing is a price adjustment that includes the current economic trends, plus a sort of adjustment because for several years Lycoming experimental engine price increases were a bit smaller than the increases that were seen on the same certified engines.
 
Thanks for the heads up.
Does the price increase also affect individual parts in the online store, or is it only for main kits and engines at this stage?
Paul.

You’re welcome for the heads up. We almost certainly won’t be able to do it in the future, and I want to make sure people understand and expect as much.

Kit prices are what’s changing in this round of changes. Store pricing reviews and changes are typically an ongoing thing for us.
 
Please clarify: "Van’s Aircraft has suspended the sale of aircraft stock/raw materials to owners/builders of Van’s RV aircraft"

  1. Sheet stock?
  2. Angle stock?
  3. Bar stock?
  4. Hinge Stock?
  5. Tubing stock?

need some more details on what cannot be ordered.

Thanks
 
Please clarify: "Van’s Aircraft has suspended the sale of aircraft stock/raw materials to owners/builders of Van’s RV aircraft"

need some more details on what cannot be ordered.

Sorry, that was a poorly worded sentence. It's been updated to read as shown below. We are selling only to RV builders and owners, and not to others, for the time being.

"Van's Aircraft is restricting the sale of aircraft stock/raw materials and will only sell these items to owners/builders of Van's RV aircraft. In addition, we are no longer selling crates/crating lumber to third parties."
 
Greg,
What about email Kit orders that were placed 10 days ago and acknowledged by Van's that it was received but not yet processed. Will they be subject to Sundays increase?
 
Greg,
What about email Kit orders that were placed 10 days ago and acknowledged by Van's that it was received but not yet processed. Will they be subject to Sundays increase?

No, they won't. Any orders received by Van's prior to the Sunday night deadline will be entered at the current prices. All orders received after that will be entered at the new prices.
 
Sorry, that was a poorly worded sentence. It's been updated to read as shown below. We are selling only to RV builders and owners, and not to others, for the time being.

"Van's Aircraft is restricting the sale of aircraft stock/raw materials and will only sell these items to owners/builders of Van's RV aircraft. In addition, we are no longer selling crates/crating lumber to third parties."

Good to hear. I ordered a piece of STOCK a few week ago and it just shipped this week. Some of that stuff I can buy from Aircraft Spruce. They had a larger piece than Van's and was a little more money for the material because of larger size. I may have paid the same as shipping would have been a shorter distance but ended up with more material than I needed.

At least I now known that I can get material that I need for my flying RV and my RV build project.

Thank you for putting your owner and builder customers before just making money from whoever wants material. I think that is a good call.
 
Didni read this right

Did i read this right:

We anticipate that within the next 6-7 months we will have produced all the kit types. The size of the upcoming scheduled runs for most parts is now large enough to fulfill all orders that are past-due.

This will be amazing if it comes to be.

The tool suppliers and others downstream had better be ready. We may be seeing this tidal wave progress for the next few years!!!!!
 
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Did i read this right:

We anticipate that within the next 6-7 months we will have produced all the kit types. The size of the upcoming scheduled runs for most parts is now large enough to fulfill all orders that are past-due.

This will be amazing if it comes out to be.

The tool suppliers and others downstream had better be ready. We may be seeing this tidal wave progress for the next few years!!!!!

Yes you read it right. It doesn’t mean we will have produced the entire backlog for all of the kits, but we will have produced at least one batch of them all. That’s the plan anyhow. When the YouTube video update is published later next week we will probably talk about that.
 
Begs the question

So this begs the question, is Vans continuing to see a large order volume? Was there just a wave of orders that crashed the system, or is a large order volume the new normal?
 
Will the prop + engine discount catch up?

I'm not sure how long the discount of $1k has been available for combining the engine and prop when purchased together through vans, but it feels like maybe it should get a true up to keep up with inflation too? :D
 
So this begs the question, is Vans continuing to see a large order volume? Was there just a wave of orders that crashed the system, or is a large order volume the new normal?

Sustained high order volume for many months (considerably more than a year) to-date. That’s what creates the need to change production processes.
 
So this begs the question, is Vans continuing to see a large order volume? Was there just a wave of orders that crashed the system, or is a large order volume the new normal?

I'm not sure how long the discount of $1k has been available for combining the engine and prop when purchased together through vans, but it feels like maybe it should get a true up to keep up with inflation too? :D

At this point, we’re appreciative that Lycoming is continuing to work with us to keep the prop/engine bundle offer available. While prices are going up, we are all working to minimize the impact to builders.
 
No, they won't. Any orders received by Van's prior to the Sunday night deadline will be entered at the current prices. All orders received after that will be entered at the new prices.

I suppose that means that the order I submitted 8 days ago but not acknowledged will be subjected to the increase.
 
When you say you'll have produced all kit types within 6 -7 months, does that mean that if you've been waiting for kit other than the -10 or -14, it'll be another 6 months before you get your first kit? Or, are you shipping standard kits for these other lines like the -8 and -7 continuously and saying that the NEW methods of parts fabrication are what will take 6-7 months to finish?
 
I suppose that means that the order I submitted 8 days ago but not acknowledged will be subjected to the increase.

It means exactly the opposite. You submitted your order prior to the increase. You get the price on the day you sent it to us based on the email or web form submission date/time. Period. Full stop.
 
Good news

Sustained high order volume for many months (considerably more than a year) to-date. That’s what creates the need to change production processes.

This is good news for me, and others, who have built or have nearly completed a plane. To me this means that the wonderful vendors who we rely on, besides Vans, will also be seeing an increase in demand. This will help them stay around for those of use who need their support. I hope this signals a change to the industry to a more sustainable pilot / owner base.
 
Thank you to Mr Hughes and the whole Van’s team for this update and continuing to answer questions and clarifications. Much appreciated and respected!
 
It means exactly the opposite. You submitted your order prior to the increase. You get the price on the day you sent it to us based on the email or web form submission date/time. Period. Full stop.

Thank you very much for that clarification Greg. and a massive shout out to you and the whole Vans team doing what ya'll can to get the processes ironed out :)
 
It means exactly the opposite. You submitted your order prior to the increase. You get the price on the day you sent it to us based on the email or web form submission date/time. Period. Full stop.

When are avionics kit prices going Up for the 12iS and by how much for Garmin and/or Dynon?
 
Kudos to Vans.

not too many COO's would get on a public forum and weather questions on price increases. Granted a positively biased community, but still...

Also, the new online documentation is a real upgrade. I refer to the website now when I need to look at the plans. It's easier to navigate there than to look at the old PDFs I saved.
 
not too many COO's would get on a public forum and weather questions on price increases. Granted a positively biased community, but still...

Appreciate the comment and thought from you and others. Doing it this way doesn't come without its share of metaphorical face-punches. But I think it's the right way to do it. I'm a builder, too. So I try to approach things from the perspective of what I'd want to see and be aware of in that capacity. And, the occasional face-punch is part of my job. :)

Also, the new online documentation is a real upgrade. I refer to the website now when I need to look at the plans. It's easier to navigate there than to look at the old PDFs I saved.

Glad you like it. For those who may not already be aware, the same PDF documentation that you can purchase from Van's on a USB stick is also available online on our new web store. Create a store account, and under your account details you'll find a section called "My Aircraft." Associate your RV kit or flying airplane with your store account and once it's listed on your account you'll find a link that you can use to view the PDF plans.

MyAircraftKitPlansLink-e1645220864344.png
 
When are avionics kit prices going Up for the 12iS and by how much for Garmin and/or Dynon?

RV-12iS avionics kit prices will be reviewed and likely changed sometime next week. I don’t have any information about the actual prices, and I don't expect they’ll be pre-announced.
 
FWF Kit price increase/ordering questions

A question for Van's in case you're monitoring over the weekend:

I'm considering a FWF kit order this weekend for my RV-10. The FWF kits are ordered in the Store and it says to call to order. Obviously Van's is closed over the weekend.

1. Do we expect FWF Kits are increasing like the other kits?
2. Can a FWF Kit be ordered via email?
3. I know what engine I'm getting, but not sure of the prop yet. Can I modify the FWF kit before crating if I needed to modify governor or other changes?
4. Any idea how long the delay is on a FWF kit? I'm not ready for it right now; just wondering.

I'll echo the other posters and say I appreciate the heads up for price increases and the transparency on areas you need to improve and some detail on how you're doing that. Keep it up!
 
A question for Van's in case you're monitoring over the weekend:

I'm considering a FWF kit order this weekend for my RV-10. The FWF kits are ordered in the Store and it says to call to order. Obviously Van's is closed over the weekend.

1. Do we expect FWF Kits are increasing like the other kits?
2. Can a FWF Kit be ordered via email?
3. I know what engine I'm getting, but not sure of the prop yet. Can I modify the FWF kit before crating if I needed to modify governor or other changes?
4. Any idea how long the delay is on a FWF kit? I'm not ready for it right now; just wondering.

I'll echo the other posters and say I appreciate the heads up for price increases and the transparency on areas you need to improve and some detail on how you're doing that. Keep it up!

Wekeend? What's that??

FYI, FWF kits are not considered one of the core kits (since some people do their own thing entirely). So, they are not included in the price changes this weekend. They are continuously reviewed and prices are adjusted as needed. I would not expect a pre-announcement of any FWF price changes (or any other future price changes for that matter) as we are switching to a more ongoing review model and can't really afford to pre-annouce everything we adjust.

Hope that helps!

greg
 
Glad you like it. For those who may not already be aware, the same PDF documentation that you can purchase from Van's on a USB stick is also available online on our store ...

MyAircraftKitPlansLink-e1645220864344.png

Greg, are the plans found online in the store the most current, i.e. updated whenever you guys make a change? Thanks
 
Greg, are the plans found online in the store the most current, i.e. updated whenever you guys make a change? Thanks

Yes. Within a day or two, at least. We do those file updates manually right now. Will be automated in the future. The version available via the store is intended to be the latest published version of all pages/drawings/files.
 
Price comparison

I noted some prices down in December 2020 when I ordered the emp kit, to get a feel for what the complete project might cost and I compared that with the prices on Van's website on Friday. So before the increase this weekend. 30% increase on the QB kit. Ouch. I assume transport costs? Any chance that will be coming down when world shipping stabilizes? Not sure if all price increases are purely based on market challenges, or if there is an element of Van's commercializing the peak in demand? I leave that for everyone themselves to decide. Obviously this is not an complete list, I can't say with certainty that in all cases it is a 100% like-for-like comparison and it is just meant to be informative.

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Van's commercializing the peak in demand? [/IMG]

As a for-profit business, they very-well should be. It's the obvious decision to make when you can't keep up with orders, and there's no indication with things slowing down in the future.

With as many price increases as we are seeing, we may look into certified planes again after finishing the -7. We'd be really excited to see some real competition enter the market. There are now a bunch of 4-place experimentals on offer, but they either aren't as fast as the -10, don't have the same useful load, or don't land slow enough.
 
I think it's great for Van's as a business that they have seen such an uptick in interest in their product, and how lousy for everyone that market forces are putting the squeeze on materials and forcing prices upward. I'm still waiting on two kits, the idea of ordering the finishing kit at this point has been the subject of hot debate. Cash flow vs. readiness (and storage space) and all that. The price increase announcement pushed me into team "fill out the order form as fast as possible", though. I remember fondly the days long ago when I ordered the -7 kits at my leisure... and I remember less fondly having cowl and canopy pieces living in my temperature-controlled spare bedroom for several years ;) All in all though, it was decidedly better to have the parts waiting for my time vs. putting the project on hold waiting on parts.

What I am curious about is whether the Experimental kit gold-rush in the last two years will actually result in a higher percentage of completed and airworthy aircraft down the line; how much of this demand is a reaction to the insane prices on 40-year old Standard category planes, how much is the result of the pandemic shift towards more time at home (temporary or otherwise) and a perceived opportunity to tackle such a project? And will the price creep over time cause a lot of builders to eventually set it aside? Just some musings from someone who took 9.5 years to build the last one and is now into Van's for a lot more money a lot sooner than I expected :D
 
30% increase on the QB kit. Ouch. I assume transport costs? Any chance that will be coming down when world shipping stabilizes? Not sure if all price increases are purely based on market challenges, or if there is an element of Van's commercializing the peak in demand?

Primarily a result of the massive increases in shipping and transportation costs, plus some other increases in various other costs related to the QB process. How those adjust in combination over time we shall see. There are a lot of price fluctuations in the equation, to be sure. We have a standard pricing model that we follow, and making big changes to capitalize on peak demand is not really part of that model. We take more of a "keep it as reasonable as we possibly can and run the business" approach, with a longer-timeframe outlook.
 
Shipping costs

At some point it would seem as shipping/transportation costs go up, eliminating those costs by producing QB kits in-house (or nearby) would be an option. Am I over simplifying?
 
Am I over simplifying?

Yep. :)

Production of QB kits requires a significant labor force and significant infrastructure. The companies that do this for us are not owned by Van's. They're partners. The company we work with in the Phillippines has nearly 100 workers and has been doing it for many years. Our new partner in Brazil has similar size and experience building RVs for many years. If there was a partner in the US that was already sufficiently sized and experienced to do the work, at a price the market would bear, we'd certainly consider it as an option. But these things have to continually work in the long term.
 
At some point it would seem as shipping/transportation costs go up, eliminating those costs by producing QB kits in-house (or nearby) would be an option. Am I over simplifying?

Labor costs are a big factor. At the present time, labor costs in the Philippines and Brazil are a fraction of the USA. After that, the cost to run the facility will come into play. A DuckDuckGo search for skilled labor in the Philippines turns out to be less than $2 USD per hour.
 
At some point it would seem as shipping/transportation costs go up, eliminating those costs by producing QB kits in-house (or nearby) would be an option. Am I over simplifying?

Greg has said before, if someone can make them at a similar price they get them done now they'd be interested. I think people generally vastly underestimate the wage difference for skilled labor overseas.

If we look at the new pricing on the RV-7, the QB premium is apparently $17,735. If we say that saves the average builder 500 hours you're talking about $35/hr saved. Cirrus aircraft in my home state hires manufacturing starting at about $20/hr and that's going to be the very low end; more experience is going to demand more money. That doesn't leave a lot of room for overhead, shipping, or profit... obviously a production facility will get it done faster than 500 hours but I still don't see a very enticing profit incentive there.

ETA: Greg and Gary posted while I was typing. If Gary's statement is correct the average Philippines wage is less than 10% of the starting wage in the Midwest USA
 
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Does anyone know if Van’s will have Show Special Pricing on Lycoming engines at Sun ‘n Fun this year? Is it safe to assume, if they do it will be less savings than the 10-15% increase next month.
 
With as many price increases as we are seeing, we may look into certified planes again after finishing the -7. We'd be really excited to see some real competition enter the market. There are now a bunch of 4-place experimentals on offer, but they either aren't as fast as the -10, don't have the same useful load, or don't land slow enough.

Safety record, number of flying airplanes and quality of support from manufacturer/community - these are main factors I considered when picked my RV kit. This is aside from the fact that RV is simply super cool airplane to fly.
I doubt you can find real competition to these factors on the market.
Certified market prices move up as well. It is industry and overall world situation, not just VANs. Sad to realize that aviation hobby becomes more and more expensive with higher ticket cost to enter, but that is a reality. Here up North in Canada we already pay over $2 CAD per litre of 100 LL 🤔🤨
 
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