chubsterini
Well Known Member
I guess am an ignorant newbie. What's changed that's causing everyone to be upset? Just the requirement to have to apply for a LODA?
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FAA policy on training in experimental aircraft
- Thread starter Draker
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GimpyPilot
Well Known Member
I suppose it sounds simple, and it might be simple. The uncertainty is what it challenging. We all need to know...
1) What criteria will be used as the FSDOs evaluate LODA requests? (According to lore, my local FSDO is famously resistant to things that others are not, though I have never had any problems in the past.)
2) How long will it take?
3) What exactly will be permitted (and forbidden) under the new LODAs?
As I've said before, a bit of patience is required, but for people who are currently engaged in training in their own aircraft, (like myself), that kind of patience is challenging. I spoke to my CFI yesterday. He has applied for a LODA as well. We've just got to take the wait and see approach, but technically, I can't pay him for training in my aircraft until the unknowns become knowns, and at least one LODA is issued. Gaps in training and currency are likely to occur. This is good for nobody. Hopefully I'll get a magic email from the FSDO tomorrow and a LODA that in essence says, "Carry on!"
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RV8JD
Well Known Member
"Notification of Policy for Flight Training in Certain Aircraft"
The new Policy/Rule did get published in the Federal Register over the weekend with an effectivity date of 7/12/2021, as the EAA article suggested.
Published in the Federal Register:
See the Section entitled, "III. Process for Compliance; A. Experimental Category Aircraft" for info on obtaining a LODA. It appears that there was no change from the Draft Policy.
I would suggest reading the entire document, as it answers many of the questions folks have been asking (ad nauseam).
The new Policy/Rule did get published in the Federal Register over the weekend with an effectivity date of 7/12/2021, as the EAA article suggested.
Published in the Federal Register:
See the Section entitled, "III. Process for Compliance; A. Experimental Category Aircraft" for info on obtaining a LODA. It appears that there was no change from the Draft Policy.
I would suggest reading the entire document, as it answers many of the questions folks have been asking (ad nauseam).
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BillL
Well Known Member
Corrected and confused.
Thanks Carl,
It is real when published. It also includes this guidance for FAA inspectors:
"The guidance states that flight instructors may receive compensation for providing flight training in an experimental aircraft but may not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft in which they provide that flight training unless they obtain a LODA"
It goes on to say owners may not receive compensation for the aircraft w/o said LODA. Seems like nothing new there either.
BUT: In the method of compliance the document says . . .
"As discussed, FAA guidance incorrectly indicates that no LODA is necessary if the owner of an experimental aircraft provides compensation for flight training in the owner's own aircraft and no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft itself. The FAA will update the guidance to align with the regulation, as previously discussed. To mitigate disruption for this type of flight training, which has been allowed under FAA guidance and is viewed as an increased safety measure for pilots who regularly fly these aircraft, the FAA has developed an interim process to issue LODAs to the owners of experimental aircraft and flight instructors that will permit flight training for compensation in experimental aircraft when no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft."
It looks like my LODA request is required. Stupid.
Thanks Carl,
It is real when published. It also includes this guidance for FAA inspectors:
"The guidance states that flight instructors may receive compensation for providing flight training in an experimental aircraft but may not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft in which they provide that flight training unless they obtain a LODA"
It goes on to say owners may not receive compensation for the aircraft w/o said LODA. Seems like nothing new there either.
BUT: In the method of compliance the document says . . .
"As discussed, FAA guidance incorrectly indicates that no LODA is necessary if the owner of an experimental aircraft provides compensation for flight training in the owner's own aircraft and no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft itself. The FAA will update the guidance to align with the regulation, as previously discussed. To mitigate disruption for this type of flight training, which has been allowed under FAA guidance and is viewed as an increased safety measure for pilots who regularly fly these aircraft, the FAA has developed an interim process to issue LODAs to the owners of experimental aircraft and flight instructors that will permit flight training for compensation in experimental aircraft when no compensation is provided for the use of the aircraft."
It looks like my LODA request is required. Stupid.
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Foam-the-runway
Active Member
LOL...That could be anything (local/federal).
I'm here on behalf of myself and my point of view is entirely my own.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
No issue with that, but you evaded answering the question.
I think you're on to something here....
RV8JD
Well Known Member
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cderk
Well Known Member
I guess the word is finally getting down to the local FSDOs. My FSDO sent me an email this morning and asked me to just follow the instructions in the link below and let them know when I submitted my info so they can follow up.
At least it appears that the local folks are trying…
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...olicy-for-flight-training-in-certain-aircraft
At least it appears that the local folks are trying…
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...olicy-for-flight-training-in-certain-aircraft
Ed_Wischmeyer
Well Known Member
1. My CFI/I buddies give me instruction for free in my RV-9A, and I give them instruction for free in their spam cans. No money changes hands, no records are kept, no tit for tat. Are two LODAs needed? Play safe, get a LODA.
2. I demonstrate the Expanded Envelope Exercises® in my RV-9A. Neither I nor the recipient log this as dual instruction, and the time is not usable towards any "pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege" -- unless I let them land the airplane, and then the landing counts. There is no compensation here although for ground instruction, I let them buy lunch. Does this require a LODA? Play safe, get a LODA.
This whole LODA mess has several consequences:
1. It has given the FAA as a whole yet another black eye that it certainly did not need. Nobody is going to trust the FAA for a long time to come.
2. Yes, there are good folks in the FAA with lotsa smarts and their hearts in the right place. The mud's gonna splash all over them.
3. The FAA safety programs are gonna get mud splashed all over them, too, from this mess. (IMHO, a lot of the FAA safety programs were just reiterations of the party line when the party line was apparently written by people who really didn't know what they were talking about.)
At AirVenture, when the Administrator is introduced or whenever he makes a comment, let's hope that nobody applauds.
2. I demonstrate the Expanded Envelope Exercises® in my RV-9A. Neither I nor the recipient log this as dual instruction, and the time is not usable towards any "pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege" -- unless I let them land the airplane, and then the landing counts. There is no compensation here although for ground instruction, I let them buy lunch. Does this require a LODA? Play safe, get a LODA.
This whole LODA mess has several consequences:
1. It has given the FAA as a whole yet another black eye that it certainly did not need. Nobody is going to trust the FAA for a long time to come.
2. Yes, there are good folks in the FAA with lotsa smarts and their hearts in the right place. The mud's gonna splash all over them.
3. The FAA safety programs are gonna get mud splashed all over them, too, from this mess. (IMHO, a lot of the FAA safety programs were just reiterations of the party line when the party line was apparently written by people who really didn't know what they were talking about.)
At AirVenture, when the Administrator is introduced or whenever he makes a comment, let's hope that nobody applauds.
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I'm coming back to flying after a long haitus and I was refamiliarizing myself with the regulations over the weekend and read over the sections relevant to this apparent change of heart at the FAA. What really suprises me is that the FAA didn't require LODAs previously. §91.319(a)(2) Clearly states that "No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate -- carrying persons for compensation or hire." To me that reads, if you hire a flight instructor for instruction in that aircraft, that aircraft is carrying a person for hire. §91.319(h) provides the work around: "The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority."
It seems pretty clear that the regulations intended for flight instruction to fall under the compensation or hire clause or they would not have explicitly mentioned the need for a LODA. It also appears the regulations don't support the interpretation that this instruction must be limited to transition training, so I find that limitation odd.
I certainly share everyone's sentiment that this has become an exercise in paperwork that isn't improving flight safety, but it really needs to be addressed in regulations and it's too bad that the faulty interpretation probably interfered with it being done sooner. I wonder what rewrite might enable an owner to receive instruction in their own aircraft without opening loopholes that have been abused in the past? Perhaps simply issuing a LODA to the owner to receive training at the time the airworthiness certificate is issued?
It seems pretty clear that the regulations intended for flight instruction to fall under the compensation or hire clause or they would not have explicitly mentioned the need for a LODA. It also appears the regulations don't support the interpretation that this instruction must be limited to transition training, so I find that limitation odd.
I certainly share everyone's sentiment that this has become an exercise in paperwork that isn't improving flight safety, but it really needs to be addressed in regulations and it's too bad that the faulty interpretation probably interfered with it being done sooner. I wonder what rewrite might enable an owner to receive instruction in their own aircraft without opening loopholes that have been abused in the past? Perhaps simply issuing a LODA to the owner to receive training at the time the airworthiness certificate is issued?
I think I woke up an put my rose colored glasses on. Wouldn't it be nice if this is just a simple paper work exercise and when the Administrator speaks at AirVenture they can say that they have already issued thousands of LODAs and they have an efficient streamlined system in place to process them.
I would apply for a LODA to get training in your 9A and a LODA to provide instruction in RVs. Just a CYA.
Providing flight training for compensation in your RV is prohibited. The only exception is with a LODA that is for Transition Training. There are also insurance implications of providing training for compensation in your own experimental. You may not be insured. And the FAAs definition of "compensation" is very broad. If you are receiving any type of compensation for that training, logging time, maybe even that lunch, or the marketing value, may expose you to an enforcement action. I would think this risk is very low and would only happen if the FAA wanted to make an example of you, like they did with the warbird operation. I would continue to demonstrate the Expanded Envelope Exercises® in your RV-9A. I would think very hard about logging any of the time by the instructor or the student.
Ed_Wischmeyer
Well Known Member
Agreed all up and down the line. I've applied for a LODA to receive flight instruction in my RV-9A, and two of my three CFII buddies who give me periodic signoffs have also applied for LODAs. As for the Expanded Envelope Exercises®, neither I nor the "clients" log that as dual. "Marketing value" is an interesting point I'd not thought about. Then again, since I do not sell E3 but only give it away, it's not clear what marketing value there may be.
Thanks for your inputs and concern.
In summary
So I am working on my instrument rating in my -7 and of course get a BFR every 2 years, do I need a LODA for the instruction in my plane or does the instructor need a LODA or both of us?
If the instruction is provided for free (instructor is a very good friend and not charging anything) does that change things.
What will be required for the instrument check ride, will I have to take it in a certified aircraft?
Figs
So I am working on my instrument rating in my -7 and of course get a BFR every 2 years, do I need a LODA for the instruction in my plane or does the instructor need a LODA or both of us?
If the instruction is provided for free (instructor is a very good friend and not charging anything) does that change things.
What will be required for the instrument check ride, will I have to take it in a certified aircraft?
Figs
cderk
Well Known Member
So I am working on my instrument rating in my -7 and of course get a BFR every 2 years, do I need a LODA for the instruction in my plane or does the instructor need a LODA or both of us?
If the instruction is provided for free (instructor is a very good friend and not charging anything) does that change things.
What will be required for the instrument check ride, will I have to take it in a certified aircraft?
Figs
Yes, you need a LODA if the training is done in your aircraft. If its free, i dont think you need it, but if you’ll be getting a check ride with a DPE, you’ll need it.
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
Will you need to apply for a LODA if you are giving a demonstration ride in your plane as part of the pre-purchase inspection?
Plummit
Well Known Member
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Well, as a moderator I try to keep things on track with the forums.
Something about his posts tickled my spidey sense.
Also, I have received PMs about his posts relating to the same issues I see, which reinforced my concerns.
Now, just to keep the playing field level------why is what I am doing any of your business?
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Got me with that one----Google to the rescue.
Nope, just trying to establish if he was speaking from a position of knowledge.
See above response.
Also, I saw similarities to the guy who asked about his why his RV 9 was so slow---dont remember the name.
Seems like some of his comments were made just to incite arguments.
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