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Updates Announced for RV-15 During 1-27-2023 Webinar

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
Screen grabs of just the slides listing the changes/updates (w/video clip)
You'll see two videos at the link. The first has no audio and is of higher quality. The second was shot from my phone pointed at the monitor during the webinar and contains Axel's commentary.



- EAA Archive link to listen to/view the entire webinar. (1hr 12min)

I think Van's will sell thousands and thousands of these kits. Clearing an area in the hangar now to build the wing kit (the first that will be released). Can't wait to get mine in the air, throw a telescope and tent in the back, and launch for dark West Texas skies.

v/r,dr​
 
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Bummer. Tons of two place designs. Looks like it is between a Zenith CH-750 SD and Bearhawk. Really wanted an aluminum Bearhawk 4 or at least 3 person
 
Grand Slam!,!!

With the changes the Vans team told us about tonight!
This is a World Series Winning Grand Slam Home Run!
I am super excited to hear about this.
Way to go team!!!
I’ll need 4 kits to start
 
This looks great! For me, this is the perfect size bush plane. Can’t wait to see the kits being offered for sale.
 
Moving the wing, extending the fuselage, reshaping the doors, moving the engine. Seems like some pretty significant changes are required.
 
Moving the wing, extending the fuselage, reshaping the doors, moving the engine. Seems like some pretty significant changes are required.

That was pretty much the entire purpose of the first article airplane design. Each of these changes are fairly subtle and really it’s all one change. This is improvement and refinement. It’s what we do.
 
To me, this is like when Porsche and Lamborghini build SUV. But I guess times and market changes and in order to stay relevant, they will need to change with the market.*
 
That was pretty much the entire purpose of the first article airplane design. Each of these changes are fairly subtle and really it’s all one change. This is improvement and refinement. It’s what we do.

Thanks for the updates in today's webinar. Truly exiting stuff!! Can't wait to get started on mine.
 
That was pretty much the entire purpose of the first article airplane design. Each of these changes are fairly subtle and really it’s all one change. This is improvement and refinement. It’s what we do.

One of those posts that makes me wish this forum supported a LIKE button!!

Only Robert McNamara was naive enough to think you could get it right first time out of the box! (I can tell you stories off-line about the TFX/F-111 development).
 
Greg,

A little sad the flap control arm is no longer overhead, seems like direct mechanical control is simple. However, having more head room will be nice.

Since the flap handle is now on the floor, is it now wire or torque tube driven?

Also, curious as to what path the wire or torque tube will take to get to the flaps.

Great webinar, thanks!
 
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Bummer. Tons of two place designs. Looks like it is between a Zenith CH-750 SD and Bearhawk. Really wanted an aluminum Bearhawk 4 or at least 3 person

Did they specifically mention 2 place in webinar? I couldn't find it in Doug's pics. I thought they initially said 2+2 at one point.
 
Did they specifically mention 2 place in webinar? I couldn't find it in Doug's pics. I thought they initially said 2+2 at one point.

Yes. It's a 2 place. 2 place plus a bicycle. The most striking thing I think I learned from the seminar is that carrying a bicycle is really important in GA. More so than carrying small people. Van's does their research so I don't question the demand for it, but it surprises me.

I don't think it's really the best mission fit for me to fly, but I want to build again for the sake of building and it does seem to fit my build mission and I probably will.
 
Only question

So my only question is when does the camping open onn Vans front lawn? And will we be mistaken for a homeless encampment?
 
Webinar

Bob (bhassel)

You can head to EAA's website. Click on Webinars. There was a choice for recent or most popular. I located it under most popular. So you can watch at your leisure. Don't know if you need to be a member or not although I am.

Also the Vans Webinar from the 25th discussing the various models is there as well.

Hope this helps.
Arnie
 
Yes. It's a 2 place. 2 place plus a bicycle. The most striking thing I think I learned from the seminar is that carrying a bicycle is really important in GA. More so than carrying small people. Van's does their research so I don't question the demand for it, but it surprises me.

I don't think it's really the best mission fit for me to fly, but I want to build again for the sake of building and it does seem to fit my build mission and I probably will.

Thanks, was really only option for me if it was at least 3 people... Bummer
 
After seeing the current prototype in person, I could imagine installing and Attlee Dodge folding rear seat pretty easily.

That was my thinking too which is why I'm surprised. Only difficult part would be making it structurally sound.
 
So cal tour?

Maybe this hear Axel can bring the first production example to Inyokern and we all have an ice cream social. I still owe Vlad some ice cream.
 
Did they specifically mention 2 place in webinar? I couldn't find it in Doug's pics. I thought they initially said 2+2 at one point.

During the presentation, they talked about not having enough height in the back for seating. I really don't want to deal with the fabric of a Bearhawk, and I would like something that looks better than the Zenith CH-750 Super Duty.

I honestly don't understand comparing it to a C-170 size, then being a two-seater. Personally, I'd pick 135 mph over 140 mph to be able to actually take BOTH my wife and my son. But they have done their research I guess, so I'll move on. I'm sure it will be a heck of an airplane, but just not working for my mission. Wonder if I can trade in my son for a bicycle...
 
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I found the presentation by Rian and the team very encouraging. For me, the size is perfect. Kitfox is too small, 180/185 is too big. I love the large flaps, stabilator, large doors, solid payload, and rugged landing gear.

A few years ago I help build the canoe on an AirCam. For those unfamiliar, the wings and tail are fabric, but the fuselage (referred to as the canoe) is metal and built with pull rivets. It was a very pleasurable experience and much faster than the all the work required when I built the -7. I'm optimistic the -15 will be similar.

Like many of you, I am waiting to put down a deposit and get in line. Until then, it's time to get the shop in order since I finished building the -7 in 2006.

There are a few things I want to improve on this time around. One is the air compressor, both for riveting and also for paint. I had my -7 professionally painted so this time I want to learn to do that myself. I found the compressor below - it is a scroll compressor meaning it is super quiet (but rather expensive $2200). You can barely hear it running, if that's believable. But it's true. Plus another $500 in filters, dehumidifiers, etc.



Another improvement is shop lighting so I put in a bunch of 8" LED flush lights. Super easy to install and they draw very little current.



Standing by... :)
 
During the presentation, they talked about not having enough height in the back for seating. I really don't want to deal with the fabric of a Bearhawk, and I would like something that looks better than the Zenith CH-750 Super Duty.

I honestly don't understand comparing it to a C-170 size, then being a two-seater. Personally, I'd pick 135 mph over 140 mph to be able to actually take BOTH my wife and my son. But they have done their research I guess, so I'll move on. I'm sure it will be a heck of an airplane, but just not working for my mission. Wonder if I can trade in my son for a bicycle...

Sir, i wish you the best in selecting the right fit for you and your family.
 
2+2

If there is indeed no 2+2 option, that's a deal breaker for me. My impression was that the two seat market was already well filled with great and affordable products.
Anyway, if Van's is deciding to go only with a 2 seat variant, there are reasons and there are so many of us that we can't all be pleased.

Best of luck to Van's with the revised -15, I am still looking forward to the next updates
 
RV16

When Vans announced the RV15 at Osh 2021, I thought they did mention a RV16 too. Perhaps the RV16 will be the 4 place?
 
When Vans announced the RV15 at Osh 2021, I thought they did mention a RV16 too. Perhaps the RV16 will be the 4 place?

Maybe, but they would never tell us that.

It's just crazy to me that the 2 seat market is so dang big, I think the 4 seat market is bigger than many realize, especially if someone could do it on an a 4 cylinder to keep costs down. Many aren't looking for stupid performance, just a way to take the whole family. Not many options for 4 seat homebuilts out there. Would have been awesome if this was a 2 seat high performer and a +2 or even +1 lower performer.
 
I'm one of the "take my money" meme posters Greg referred to, and I appreciate all the work they're doing to tweak the design. However, I'm quite disappointed that Van's has abandoned the 2+2 design. Taking lots of "stuff" along is nice and the mountain bike in the back is cool, but I agree with the previous poster that there is an abundance of 2 seat backcountry options but little that gives at least the option to take along an extra passenger even if they have to be petite.
 
During the presentation, they talked about not having enough height in the back for seating. I really don't want to deal with the fabric of a Bearhawk, and I would like something that looks better than the Zenith CH-750 Super Duty.

I honestly don't understand comparing it to a C-170 size, then being a two-seater. Personally, I'd pick 135 mph over 140 mph to be able to actually take BOTH my wife and my son. But they have done their research I guess, so I'll move on. I'm sure it will be a heck of an airplane, but just not working for my mission. Wonder if I can trade in my son for a bicycle...

I hope that you can find the airplane appropriate for your mission - there is no one machine (and never has been) that can satisfy everyone….a designer has to work for the middle of the bell-shaped curve.

I can tell you, however, that many folks have built “for the family”, and realized that after they finished, the family isn’t the same as it was - kids grow up fast and don;t want to travel with Mom and Dad, etc….so set realistic goals.

Teh other thing I can contribute based on experience is that our Tundra is essentially the same size aircraft as the RV-15 (span, length, weight) and while it has back seats, we have installed them maybe three times, and never had more than one person back there. Realistically speaking, airplanes in this size category (which is significantly bigger than the current crop of excellent two-seaters that are LSA compliant or grew up from being LSA compliant) are “two people and an elk” or “two people and a huge amount of gear” in practice.

And remember, if it is configurable for four people, you will be paying insurance for a four-seater all the time, forever. Our Tundra has liability only, and is more than twice what our two-seat RV’s cost us…same pilot experience for both types.

Paul
 
4 seater

a 4 seater back country airplane begs for an IO540. I don't see Vans building a 4 seater with an o360 or O390; That would be a pretty poor performing back country 4 seater.
 
I can tell you, however, that many folks have built “for the family”, and realized that after they finished, the family isn’t the same as it was - kids grow up fast and don;t want to travel with Mom and Dad, etc….so set realistic goals.

I had the opposite experience. I built two seats instead of four fully expecting the family desire to fly with me to fade. After a few years of flying the -7 and seeing the family flight “demand” constantly increasing, I was forced 😁 to build the -10. One of my all time favorite flights was this Christmas. My son asked if I could fly to Denver to get them and fly them back after Christmas. They have a newborn and the pediatrician said avoid crowds (commercial airports) until she’s three months. If Van’s had a true six seater, I would have already started it!
 
a 4 seater back country airplane begs for an IO540. I don't see Vans building a 4 seater with an o360 or O390; That would be a pretty poor performing back country 4 seater.

True 4 person, certainly. But 150 lbs of gear vs 150 lbs of human does not really change anything, other than allowing it to be used to fly for an hour instead of driving for 2.5 to see family with 3. Then removing the jump seat and going out camping with two

I guess we will see as it develops. Trying to find the right plane to build with my son in a year or two. My hopes were high, because the RV-15 engineering prototype is just a really nice looking plane.
 
If there is indeed no 2+2 option, that's a deal breaker for me. My impression was that the two seat market was already well filled with great and affordable products.
Anyway, if Van's is deciding to go only with a 2 seat variant, there are reasons and there are so many of us that we can't all be pleased.

Best of luck to Van's with the revised -15, I am still looking forward to the next updates

Unfortunately I’m in the same place as you by the sounds of it. A 2+2 was going to fit the bill perfectly since I could bring 4 people for the shorter flights and out to visit friends and family farms.
Then as the kids got older and didn’t care anymore the wife and I would have an awesome 2 place backcountry machine.
Also to some saying a 4 cylinder 4 place back country machine isn’t useful it’s really true. It’s not a 150hp 0-320 it’s a 220ish HP 390. By the sounds of the gross weight being targeted it will have a decent edge in the HP-Weight ratio on all the 470 powered 180’s.
 
I had the opposite experience. I built two seats instead of four fully expecting the family desire to fly with me to fade.

+1 A big big +1

True 4 person, certainly. But 150 lbs of gear vs 150 lbs of human does not really change anything, other than allowing it to be used to fly for an hour instead of driving for 2.5 to see family with 3. Then removing the jump seat and going out camping with two

Bingo

Also to some saying a 4 cylinder 4 place back country machine isn’t useful it’s really true. It’s not a 150hp 0-320 it’s a 220ish HP 390. By the sounds of the gross weight being targeted it will have a decent edge in the HP-Weight ratio on all the 470 powered 180’s.

Mega Bingo. Exactly what I was thinking.

Many of us weren't looking for a true +4 and all the baggage that a mega hauler Cessna name a number could do. But Van's initially mentioning a 2+2 on an IO-390, now that could give a guy (and family) some serious options. Just bummed they dropped it and it seems like a missed opportunity for Van's to have a +2, even as an optional extra...
 
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As the RV-15 will be an experimental aircraft, what would prevent the builder from modifying as needed to accommodate small +1 or +2 seats in back for smaller people? Maybe a 3rd party could offer an option?
 
Bummer. Tons of two place designs. Looks like it is between a Zenith CH-750 SD and Bearhawk. Really wanted an aluminum Bearhawk 4 or at least 3 person

But it's an RV with the RV community ... to me that adds a lot ... I'm wrapping up a Carbon Cub EX3 build and there is no community ... really night and day difference.
 
I think the 15 will be hugely successful and I’m not disappointed with the design path Van’s chose. However, it’s not for me. I want a a 4-6 place, 1500lbs useful load minimum to replace my 10. As has been mentioned, I initially wanted a 4-place for the family, but that mission never really materialized. We now use that capability mainly for cargo and I wouldn’t ever want to give that up. However, now a new 4-place requirement has developed — couples lunches and vacations. Unfortunately, most of our friends exceed the standard FAA pax weight meaning, as great as the 10 is, it simply doesn’t have the useful load to handle what we want to do. There are planes that do, but none that I really want to own. So I wait, and see what develops.
 
I’m confused when did the say the +2 part went away? Is the possibility of a bench seat or similar for kids gone now?
 
As the RV-15 will be an experimental aircraft, what would prevent the builder from modifying as needed to accommodate small +1 or +2 seats in back for smaller people? Maybe a 3rd party could offer an option?

It would need to be structurally sound for me to put a pax in it. Would really only get that likely from the factory. I supposed a guy could do it if there was the knowledge but I suspect many don't have that ability.
 
Greg, the presentation mentioned the possibility of changing the door structure from metal to composite. Has there been any thought to adding structure in the middle to allow the addition of an arm rest?
 
I honestly don't understand comparing it to a C-170 size, then being a two-seater. Personally, I'd pick 135 mph over 140 mph to be able to actually take BOTH my wife and my son. But they have done their research I guess, so I'll move on. I'm sure it will be a heck of an airplane, but just not working for my mission. Wonder if I can trade in my son for a bicycle...

I read 900lb useful load, how you load it is up to you, it will be an experimental category airplane. I have seen Rv-7s with a jump seat.
360lb of fuel that leaves 540lb for you, your wife and son plus baggage.
Trade off a little endurance (fuel) and take advantage of even more useful load.
Vans knows we are experimenters and may leave a few options up to the builder.

Having experienced the need for more seats and building a -10 after building my -8, I can assure you that you will seldom have all 4 seats occupied by family members.
Realistically, having an RV-15 ready to fly will take even the most ambitious builder 5 years or more. Two more years before wing kits are delivered and a couple more for the rest of the kits, that is, providing you have <$100,000> ready to buy all of what is needed to complete an RV-15.
The 10 is an exceptional airplane and truly a 4 place traveling machine and you can start it today if you must have a 4 seater.
There are other options but none as good as Vans, all else considered.
 
I read 900lb useful load, how you load it is up to you, it will be an experimental category airplane. I have seen Rv-7s with a jump seat.
360lb of fuel that leaves 540lb for you, your wife and son plus baggage.
Trade off a little endurance (fuel) and take advantage of even more useful load.
Vans knows we are experimenters and may leave a few options up to the builder.

I don’t think anyone heard or thought 2+2 would mean 4 people and full fuel. If you carry 30 gallons now that 900lb useful weight turns into 180lbs of fuel and and average of 180lbs/person which is more than enough for 2 200lb adults and 2 160lb kids.

Don’t get me wrong it’s still going to be a good airplane and I love the addition of 10 gallons from 50 to 60 for longer backcountry round trips. I’m just disappointed it’s not going to continue to be a 2+2 design.
 
I don’t think anyone heard or thought 2+2 would mean 4 people and full fuel. If you carry 30 gallons now that 900lb useful weight turns into 180lbs of fuel and and average of 180lbs/person which is more than enough for 2 200lb adults and 2 160lb kids.

Don’t get me wrong it’s still going to be a good airplane and I love the addition of 10 gallons from 50 to 60 for longer backcountry round trips. I’m just disappointed it’s not going to continue to be a 2+2 design.

If you placed the 2 jump seats back to back with the pilot and co pilot and kept all the weights in check and the w&b within limits you could engineer a 2+2.

Sitting backwards?? no problem, the military does it all the time. It is considered safer than facing forward. They have a window right there on each side. And if they are kids, they will spend most of their time with an I pad stuck to their face.

Van's has said that the floor is flat. The passengers do not have to sit up as high as the pilot so they can sit low enough for head clearance with plenty of legroom.

Just wait, someone will do it.
 
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