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Tailwheel Excitement

tinman

Well Known Member
I had a close call (at least to me it seemed so...)

RV-8
90 degree crosswind with full windsock?let?s say 15 kts.

I had a good cross-control going with nice alignment on centerline. I got a little slow over the numbers(70 kts indicated) and decided to try for a 3-pointer instead of the wheel landing. As soon as my tailwheel hit, it went into free-swivel mode?I was going slow enough that the rudder alone didn?t have enough bite to counter the crosswind-induced weathervaning to the right. The tail was already too far around for me to consider differential braking?it would have tied the knot in the ensuing ground loop?

The only thing left to try was to let her depart the runway and slow down in the weeds, or to gun it and try to get her off before I hit the edge of the runway. I gunned it.

I did a tiny crow-hop in ground effect and settled her back down on the mains?all was well. Gotta love that throttle!!!

I guess it makes sense that the tailwheel would have gone into free swivel mode since I had so much rudder dialed in when I touched down. The tailwheel would have been in a ?turn? when it hit going straight?this probably exceeded the breakout force limit and set her free?I have my chains set pretty loose to prevent exactly what happened?



What should I have done differently to prevent this? If I had wheel-landed her, I could have kept her straight with differential brakes?I don?t know what I could do given the same situation and a 3-pointer?any thoughts?
 
Don,

Wheel land vs. three point it? That is a never ending debate.

When there is a strong crosswind, I like to wheel land it. However, runway length may also be a factor.

Wheel landings allow me time to get the airplane established on the upwind wheel. Then as speed bleeds off, I?ll let the other wheel touch. As you know, with both mains on the ground, you can ?pin? it. Then with brakes, throttle, and rudder you can choose when to set the tail down. Hopefully that will happen when the plane is going straight.
 
Hi Don
Good job on saving it :)
for what it's worth I always wheel land in a big cross wind, just always seems to work out better
Kirk
 
Fly a stabilized approach, don't let the...

airspeed get too slow on final like you might on a nice calm day and land on the mains. Use anything and everything to keep it on the center line. When the plane slows down 'enough' I pull the stick all the way back 'sharply' and hold it all the way back to keep the tailwheel pinned to the runway.
 
tail wheel swiveling!?!?!?

I'm a big fan of 3-pt landing. So this is really the dilemma - you have the right amount of rudder in for the nice, controlled, stabilized slip to touch-down.
Then the tail wheel touches and it all gets wierd because the wheel wants to steer immediately.

In the Citabria I flew for years, the chains were sort of tight, but had really soft springs with more travel. I never noticed any wierdness, even in 20+kt xwind with 3-pt landing.

On my newly flying -8, I have the Tail Lynx set up. I have zero slack in the cables when airborn. With the tail on the ground, there is some slack in the cables. Not much. The Lynx springs are pretty stiff and not a large amount of travel.

For the Rocket-Link guys, this must be an even bigger issue. Probably all the Rocket Link guys do always wheelies?

On both of my maiden landings, I kind of had the sense that the wheel went into free swivel - certainly something felt less than completely positive about the steering for a few seconds.

Do we want more slack or less slack? I think what I want is no slack, but longer, softer springs.
 
Don brought up a rarely (never) mentioned point regarding the tailwheel offset when touching down 3-pt in a strong crosswind. Just so this thread doesn't veer off into the usual (beaten to death) wheel-landing vs. 3-point comments, I'm curious what others have to say regarding this specific point. I've never heard of anyone avoiding a crosswind 3-point landing because of this issue, so it seems not to be much of a factor for most folks.

It seems to me that, in most cases, the tailwheel springs would provide enough "give" to allow the tailwheel to self-align upon touchdown with the rudder still deflected. It seems this difference in angle between the rudder and tailwheel would typically not exceed the breakout angle and cause the tailwheel to unlock unless additional side-load (drift at touch down) occured.

I'm curious about this because I never thought much about it. Interested in others' thoughts and what checks may be in order on the tailwheel setup.
 
Is the Vans supplied tailwheel actuated like the one from Aviation Specialties (AKA the Spruce "Homebuilders Special")? If so, there is NO breakout force at full rudder deflection. The index pin is "cammed out" of position by the rudder, and when it touches, it's gone. Don't ask me how I know! Full deflection of the rudder with the tailwheel on the ground is normally OK because the springs do not allow the corresponding full deflection of the tailwheel, so it stays cammed in place. The trick is to make sure the rudder is at an angle something less than where the cam starts to move at tailwheel contact (even if for an instant). After that, you're mostly OK.
 
Yes Michael, the API tailwheel and Van's tail wheel are identical in breakout characteristics - the pins are even interchangeable. If you truly have FULL rudder, the tail wheel will essential break out as soon as you touch it down.

I was one of those folks lucky enough to learn to fly in a tail dragger some three and a half decades and a few thousand tail dragger hours ago, and have always been more comfortable using a wheelie in a crosswind - in fact, that is what I was taught that they were for! I have never really thought about it in terms of preventing a swerve when the tailwheel touches down (more for having a little extra speed to manage the crosswind throughout the landing), but certainly, that is a bonus.

I too had a couple of interesting swerves in my initial RV-8 hours, mostly when I was trying to three-point it. Every model of airplane is different, and I just don't feel like I have as nice of control in a three-point landing in the 8, partially because of the ground handling aspect I guess. It is still one of the most forgiving tail wheel airplanes I have flown, but if you get it sideways and light at the same time, it can still bite you.

Do what works and leaves you the most margin.

Paul
 
Boy, am I going to open a can of worms here. I'm not advocating the following technique, just throwing it out there for consideration. This works for me and I'm wondering if anyone else uses it. In severe crosswinds, not mild crosswinds, I will sometimes land across the runway using a three-point landing. So, let's say the crosswind is from the right at 90 degrees. I will take out about 45 degrees of the crosswind by landing as much as 45 degrees across the runway, from left to right. This assumes at least a 150' wide runway, of course. Consider the advantages: one, it reduces your groundspeed at touchdown, thus your landing roll is minuscule; two, it reduces or eliminates the crosswind component; and, three, after touchdown, you have total tailwheel control so you can straighten the airplane out before you reach the other edge of the runway, and a gust of wind will be less likely to lift a wing. Of course, it's always advisable to divert to an airport with better conditions. Not for the inexperienced, I grant you, and not for every crosswind situation. Just another tool to consider. In an emergency, this just might save your bacon. As always, use good judgment.
 
Excitement

So, let's say the crosswind is from the right at 90 degrees. I will take out about 45 degrees of the crosswind by landing as much as 45 degrees across the runway, from left to right. This assumes at least a 150' wide runway, of course. Consider the advantages: one, it reduces your groundspeed at touchdown, thus your landing roll is minuscule; two, it reduces or eliminates the crosswind component; and, three, after touchdown, you have total tailwheel control so you can straighten the airplane out before you reach the other edge of the runway, and a gust of wind will be less likely to lift a wing. Of course, it's always advisable to divert to an airport with better conditions. Not for the inexperienced, I grant you, and not for every crosswind situation. Just another tool to consider. In an emergency, this just might save your bacon. As always, use good judgment.

Pat:

I've done this too and it works even better if there's a "high speed" turnoff that you can use as as an extension of the "runway".:p
 
Pat and Mannan and I do this..

..as well.

I've had a bugger of a summer with crosswinds and my Air Tractor.

A couple of helpful points in very stiff crosswinds are that a) Use less flaps (if any) for a faster landing and more rudder effectiveness and a wheelie as others have said.

b) Don't rely on the tailwheel to stay locked....use brakes and burn up the tires if you have to in order to avoid groundlooping and possibly totalling the airplane.

My .02c,
 
I once -

landed a glider in a 35kt++ direct 90 degree crosswind from a summer storm in Taos, NM. My runway was 75 ft long by 5800 ft wide plus a bit of a taxiway where four guys piled on my wings as I came to a screeching halt. Don't want to have to do that again!! The only other option included sagebrush. I don't think there are any regs that say you have to use a runway the long way. :p
 
I know I'll regret this but......

Had it been a nose dragger, it would have been a non-event........

Hey, us trike guys get so picked on we don't get a opening like this very often.........
 
Webb,
The physics are similar in this case...both the taildragger and the tri-gear would have had free-swivilling "steering" wheels. Both types would have immediately started weathervaning into the wind and would have needed to be held on centerline with rudder and differential braking. The tri-gear would have been able to apply braking more aggressively without bringing the tail around, though. (If the situation were diagnosed in time...)

The difference is that a tailwheel pilot is supposed to be a bit more suspicious of what is in store once the rubber hits the runway...I got caught off guard when my steerable tailwheel became non-steerable...this will not happen again. I just passed 25 hours of tailwheel time and consider this to be one of the best learning experiences to date...

What was drilled into my head during RV transition training was that you must NEVER give up on a landing no matter how deeply into the poop you get...you must stay in the fight. The airplane will beat you if you give up...even a good landing will turn ugly if you let down your guard. I am having so much fun learning and bagging new tricks in order to keep us both out of trouble some day...
 
Don - PLEASE don't get too serious on me here. I don't care what you fly, strong crosswinds require practiced skill.

That being said....

It was meant as light hearted.......The tail wheelers are always ganging up on the nose wheelers.......This group enjoys a good verbal joust every now and then.
 
Webb,
No worries...I am just using you guys as my sounding board as I try to sort through what I did and failed to do.

Believe me- for five seconds last Saturday, I was wishing that I had built a nose dragger :D
 
hehehe Don't worry Don... Webb just wanted to use his pretty pink computer to take a swipe at us real men:D
 
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Steady v. Gusting Crosswind?

I guess the rigid, German side of my brain is not as dominant as it used to be, because although I generally do 3 pointers (well, lets say "attempted 3 pointers" . . ) regardless of crosswinds, I also do wheelies some of the time, also regardless of crosswinds.

But where I fly the most (i.e., around my home area near Seattle), it seems as though crosswinds I get are most often gusty, uneven, and often due to - or compounded by - ground contours, buildings, etc. Rarely is it a nice, steady, predictable crosswind component.

So, my question for those of you who adhere to one technique (wheelie or 3 point) for crosswinds is: do you change techniques depending on whether the crosswind is steady as opposed to gusting and variable? Or do you find that your preferred technique works best regardless?

Just celebrated 727JW's 5th birthday (first flight was 9/8/04) by taking the afternoon of 9/8/09 off and making a nice scenic flight with my wife. :) The down side? Only 290 hours on the Hobbs ..... gotta find a way to work less, and fly more. :rolleyes:
 
I watched a Beaver go into the same mode last weekend. He did actually loop it a little. I think he avoided major damage, but might have scraped a wing a touch and ended up in the dirt. Same thing, too much flappage, and too slow for rudder effectiveness on touchdown. You could even tell just watching him fly that it wasn't gonna work.
 
...So, my question for those of you who adhere to one technique (wheelie or 3 point) for crosswinds is: do you change techniques depending on whether the crosswind is steady as opposed to gusting and variable? Or do you find that your preferred technique works best regardless?...
Yes

I almost always do 3 point landings and will do them in light X-winds, even light gusts.

The stronger the X-wind the more likely I will wheel it on.

I used to fly my T-Craft in cross winds that would keep Cessna's tied up in their hangars. I have found that the RV is so responsive, it is actually easier to fly than that old light wing loaded T-Craft with heal brakes.

Don,

As they say about tail wheel pilots, there are those who have and those who will. Good to hear you got yours behind you with no damage!
 
Good to hear you got yours behind you with no damage!

Bill,
No damage to the plane...you should have seen my shorts, though! :eek:
 
Bill,
No damage to the plane...you should have seen my shorts, though! :eek:

I can imagine!

Back when I was getting my tailwheel endorsement in a friend's J-3 and Stearman he used to tell me on base, "Sit up, pay attention, get your feet ready, you are in a tail dragger now." Every time I come in for a landing I hear Ed's words in my head.

I?m just waiting for my turn. :eek:
 
I have done it!

I ground looped my Super Cub three years ago on a tarmac runway at a place called Worms in Germany. I did a 360° pirouette but managed to keep the plane on the runway and did not scrape the wing tips. The reasons for the ground loop was a poorly designed towing bracket that allowed the tailwheel leaf spring to move sideways, a worn tailwheel that broke out with just the slightest pressure and a 130 Kg passenger in the back.

I bit the bullet and bought a new Alaskan Bushwheels tailwheel and a Töst tow hook carrier. 2000 Euros lighter in the wallet, the plane was a much tamer animal on tarmac. Up until that time, all my landings were on grass and I had no problems, even in 12 to 15 Kt crosswinds.

The problem at Worms started once the tail was down and the airspeed over the rudder was not enough to keep the Cub turning into the 9 Kt crosswind. There was a perfect black doughnut of rubber left on the runway.

Grass runways are much more forgiving for tailwheel aircraft to land on, and given the choice I will always go for the grass runway.
 
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So, my question for those of you who adhere to one technique (wheelie or 3 point) for crosswinds is: do you change techniques depending on whether the crosswind is steady as opposed to gusting and variable? Or do you find that your preferred technique works best regardless?

I personally don't stick to rote procedures when it comes to the actual "stick and rudder" flying of the airplane - I guess I simply fly the airplane, and do whatever is required to make the outcome acceptable. The gustier it is, the less likely I am to try touching down at the stall, or in a 3-point attitude, since I want more control margin in that case.

There is no one-size-fits-all, and one mark of an experienced pilot is that they "feel" what they need to get to a specific goal (in this case, a good touchdown and safe roll-out).
 
I personally don't stick to rote procedures when it comes to the actual "stick and rudder" flying of the airplane - I guess I simply fly the airplane, and do whatever is required to make the outcome acceptable. The gustier it is, the less likely I am to try touching down at the stall, or in a 3-point attitude, since I want more control margin in that case.

There is no one-size-fits-all, and one mark of an experienced pilot is that they "feel" what they need to get to a specific goal (in this case, a good touchdown and safe roll-out).

With regard to the last sentence, I rebuilt a wrecked -A (due to a NG flip) to tail dragger configuration thinking I did not want that to happen again. After two TD check outs, one in a Citabria and one in a -6, I felt confident enough to blast off with reconfigured -7 although it was an untested engine on first flight.

Well, long story real short, between an overheating engine and little TD experience, I nearly rolled the airplane into a ball on the second flight with hot engine and a screwed up attemtped wheel landing. Two serious pogo's and finally saving the day with a go around and full stall landing, I decided it was time to get control of the airplane if not the overheating engine. I closed the hangar door and did not re-emerge until the NG was reinstalled.

The tail wheel hardware is still in the back end if ever I care to revisit and get acquainted with it. As it is it makes a good tail skid. Some friends have suggested intalling the tail wheel and fly with both. :)
 
I personally don't stick to rote procedures when it comes to the actual "stick and rudder" flying of the airplane - I guess I simply fly the airplane, and do whatever is required to make the outcome acceptable. The gustier it is, the less likely I am to try touching down at the stall, or in a 3-point attitude, since I want more control margin in that case.

There is no one-size-fits-all, and one mark of an experienced pilot is that they "feel" what they need to get to a specific goal (in this case, a good touchdown and safe roll-out).

I could not agree more, with the minor exception that I do "anticipate" a wheelie in gusty conditions... Depending how things feel at the roundout is what drives the resulting touchdown. After all, you can always turn a wheelie into a 3 point if needed, but not the other way around.
 
I ground looped my Super Cub three years ago...

Me too, though mine was far more dramatic and resulted in significant damage. The upside is that if the saying about taildragger pilots and ground loops is true (there are those that have ground looped, and those that will...), we have had "ours".
 
Real men aren't afraid of pink

hehehe Don't worry Don... Webb just wanted to use his pretty pink computer to take a swipe at us real men:D

Hey Kirk.......be careful about pink.....I know a real man that ain't afraid of it.

ciaobellaxy5.jpg
 
Funny thing is....

...that just yesterday, Jenny and I flew to Jekyll Island for her birthday. Man, the 496 said 17 gusting to 22! at a 45* angle to our approach. I told her that this was going to be interesting and, like Paul, no one size fits all.

I used half flap and the airplane was all over the place because of trees upwind and the FBO but the quick ailerons took care of that as I landed fast with barely a little nose up. Whew...I knew that the toilet paper holder I installed would get used sooner rather than later:D

Regards,
 
...I knew that the toilet paper holder I installed would get used sooner rather than later.

I had one fitted in my Cub to the cross bracing in the centre section of the wings, I had to be careful that the roll did not unwind when flying with the door open, otherwise it looked as if I was wearing a long whites Biggles scarf!
 
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Got my TW Endorsement Yesterday in Super Cub

Feeling great about getting the sticker in my logbook, and very, very aware that I really don't know how to fly a TW aircraft yet.

Thanks for sharing your techniques and experiences and if I can get my rear to the airport more (instead of building my 8), I'll improve enough to be able to share.:cool:
 
Shortly after starting on my RV7 I was told that the local airport has about a two year waiting list for a hanger. About 3 months ago after just over a year I received a call from the airport office informing me that a hanger was available. After a few days thinking about it, I passed on the hanger and decided I'd spend the money that I'm going to be paying for the hanger on TW lessons.

While doing touch and go's in a Super Cub, after I land my instructor has me reduce the flaps, add power (about 40%), raise the tail and keep the airplane tracking straight down the runway until I add full power and take off. Yesterday during one of these landings he took control of the airplane to illustrate that it will do whatever you want it to do. He proceeded to put the airplane on each wheel one at a time.

When we returned one of the observers commented "Looking good, I see you're having a little fun out there doing wheelies". I assured him that it wasn't me at the controls and had it been it probably would not have been on purpose.

I strongly urge every pilot to get their TW endorsement even if they never plan to use it, it's a blast!
 
Feeling great about getting the sticker in my logbook, and very, very aware that I really don't know how to fly a TW aircraft yet.

Thanks for sharing your techniques and experiences and if I can get my rear to the airport more (instead of building my 8), I'll improve enough to be able to share.:cool:

congrats!! :D
 
STEERABLE TAILWHEEL INOP

My RV-7 tailwheel is free castering until I get new parts from vans. Anybody out there have experience flying with a free Castering tailwheel on a 7?
 
I have on my -4, sort of

I did once by accident on my -4 when the eyelets weren't safety wired and one of the chains separated during during taxi out for take-off. I have the non-full swivel factory TW. I knew something was off, but had already started my roll on take-off. Landing was uneventful but return to hangar taxi was sketchy and I needed brakes for one direction to make turns. I don't know that I would purposely do it, especially with any level of wind. Cannot be compared to a non-steerable nose wheel, since the little wheel in back is always fighting to be the little wheel in front.
 
Boy, am I going to open a can of worms here. I'm not advocating the following technique, just throwing it out there for consideration. This works for me and I'm wondering if anyone else uses it. In severe crosswinds, not mild crosswinds, I will sometimes land across the runway using a three-point landing. So, let's say the crosswind is from the right at 90 degrees. I will take out about 45 degrees of the crosswind by landing as much as 45 degrees across the runway, from left to right. This assumes at least a 150' wide runway, of course. Consider the advantages: one, it reduces your groundspeed at touchdown, thus your landing roll is minuscule; two, it reduces or eliminates the crosswind component; and, three, after touchdown, you have total tailwheel control so you can straighten the airplane out before you reach the other edge of the runway, and a gust of wind will be less likely to lift a wing. Of course, it's always advisable to divert to an airport with better conditions. Not for the inexperienced, I grant you, and not for every crosswind situation. Just another tool to consider. In an emergency, this just might save your bacon. As always, use good judgment.

Totally agree with this approach. Adjust for narrower runways...
 
crosswind

At the US National Aerobatic Championships in Sherman TX competitors flew all day with an absurd 90 degree crosswind. I think gusts to 50 when I flew. I landed across the runway with no issues in the Pitts S1S. The Pitts is a great crosswind airplane because of excellent rudder and aileron control.
Planning cross countries with questionable winds if I am planning a single runway destination I try to find an alternate with multiple runways. On ex military airports there are often closed runways or even taxiways that can be used in emergencies. With strong winds in the SW a dirt runway with a strong headwind is often better than crosswind on the pavement. Silver City NM is a good example of this.
 
Three point vs wheel landings in a cross wind....

Ask me about the time I landed the Cub on the RAMP in Casper, Wyoming with a 45 knot crosswind! :eek::) (Tower: I can't approve of your landing there but do what you have to do to get on the ground!)

I was taught the diagonal landing technique when I was first learning to fly in a Super Cub 90. It is also helpful to take off diagonally when the wind is really honking. Tuck up on the downwind edge of the runway and head across; that can eliminate 15-20 degrees of crosswind if the runway is wide enough. I have landed on perpendicular taxiways before.....

I know it is personal preference but I ALWAYS do wheel landings in a cross wind. Comes from flying a light Cub with a lot of wing area for so many years. Usually no flaps and carrying a little more speed. Roll that upwind wheel down the runway until the airspeed drops enough to bring the downwind wing down which also will tell you if you have enough rudder and if brakes will be needed. Then worry about the tail. Works in a low wing as well. The argument is that the tail has to come down sometime. But think about how you take off in a cross wind: do you take off three point?:eek::eek: I don't. Stick into the wind, tail low but up (meaning rudder is also flying), roll up on that upwind wheel if necessary and fly it off. IMHO....
 
It is also helpful to take off diagonally when the wind is really honking.

This is always mentioned in x-wind discussions, but unless you're flying a super STOL airplane there's little value. A little math...

Let's say you're on a 100' wide runway and planning a 500' take off run while using the entire width of the runway. This results in a takeoff path angled 10 degrees from the runway heading.

If you have a 25KT direct x-wind, angling your take off path 10 degrees into the wind will reduce the x-wind component to 24.6KT which is virtually zero benefit while making the takeoff more risky.
 
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