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RUDDER BENT @ OSH - HELP

pilotkms

Well Known Member
Worse damage I found nearby my row 315 is Larry’s RV14A. He had a gust lock on it but 50+ kts twisted it anyway. Pix will be below. He’s looking for ideas from those that know more as to temporary fix, if needed, to get home 1800 miles away. He’s asked me to post this and will watch for replies. If anyone can help please reply here.
 

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He’s adjacent to me, and imo needs a new rudder.

Is there a local -14 builder with a complete rudder or rudder kit s/he could part with?
 
Randy Richmond (A&P) has a flyable rudder from a 7A in Texas that we can get up here if somebody closer doesn’t have a solution. You’ll need to pop rivet the rudder cap on the bottom using the existing.

Standing by…


7/9/14 have same rudder
 

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For educational purposes it would be nice to know exactly where/how this was gust locked, to have resulted in such damage.

And that is so awesome somebody has a rudder to lend already.
 
I agree…I’m having a hard time envisioning how that damage occurred. Was it taped like that before, or after the storm?
 
It had a home brewed lock on the counterbalance. I don’t know that anyone saw the failure in action. Either the gust lock held and the rudder twisted or the gust lock failed and let the rudder slam hard over, causing the rudder to twist.

The home brew rudder stop was similar to, but IMO less sturdy than the commercially available padded clamp type with a strap that holds the clamp halves against the counterweight.
 
FOD?

Really sorry to see the damage to any a/c. I'm having trouble imaging the gust lock contributing to this one. Of course, you guys are there and I'm sure your assessment is spot on. But from the photos, it almost looks as though the rudder was impacted by something, or am I seeing it wrong?

That kind of wind could have hurtled something into the rudder, perhaps? Looking at the TE, it looks like a FOD strike. I am curious because I also use a counterweight style gust lock on my 7.

In any case, very sorry to see this sort of thing, but huge cudos to the VAF community for help and support. Enjoy the rest of the week!

Jim
 
Replacement rudder on its way

Keith, tell your 14A guy Randy is boxing it up today and it’ll be shipped via UPS tomorrow. I’ll have more information down the road.
 
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Rudder

If you zoom in on the first pic there looks to be a hole punched in the rudder from hitting the RH elevator. Probably slammed then unzipped
 
How it happened?

I’m leaving that for Larry to post rather than 2nd hand info that will need to be corrected. I’m just trying to get him help, which seems to have been done. Larry went to talk to Ken Krueger somewhere.
 
If you zoom in on the first pic there looks to be a hole punched in the rudder from hitting the RH elevator. Probably slammed then unzipped
To add: twist or torsion failure called “unzipped”. You can almost imagine the torsional failure in clockwise direction as the the impact on lower right occurred. Rudder swung right, impact + moment arm = top result. Force vector left to right.
 
Thank you Doug! I am flying with Larry , RV-14A guy, and we talked to Vans, and the Repair folks. Brian at Vans said this was the first thing they discussed this am and that they were looking also. So we will swing by Vans and let Brian know the great news. And we will head back to take the rudder off. Is the this a fully built rudder, or kit? Larry’s user name is LJack. Hope to meet you here at the show.
 
Thank you Doug! I am flying with Larry , RV-14A guy, and we talked to Vans, and the Repair folks. Brian at Vans said this was the first thing they discussed this am and that they were looking also. So we will swing by Vans and let Brian know the great news. And we will head back to take the rudder off. Is the this a fully built rudder, or kit? Larry’s user name is LJack. Hope to meet you here at the show.

Yeah it was the first thing we were doing this morning. <g>. Talking about your rudder and trying to find you one. We were all sitting around the table with our phones texting our friends. Super glad this is working out for you. I’ll have some more information when it ships out tomorrow. It’s being boxed up today.

It does not have the fiberglass bottom cap so that will need to be removed from yours and attached to the new one with pop rivets. Other than that you should be good to go

More to come…
 
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I hate to tag onto someone else’s thread. I have a damaged rudder also from last night’s storm at OSH. ED4240E1-86EE-472C-A5D7-E5F5A18BB8E5.jpg

30C2BFA0-881B-4650-8CCE-18B4CB7DC262.jpg

6C10B3A2-DFEA-4061-BA7F-B6CFCB6158D2.jpgin my case the trailing edge rivets at the bottom of the rudder unzipped.

I am going to need a new rudder if anyone else has a 7,9,14 rudder I would appreciate talking to you. I have talked with Van this morning and discussed my damage. He believes I can repair it and fly home. However, it will have to be replaced once home.

If anyone has a built 7,9,14 rudder they can sell me please call me: four O fife ate 2 two zero six 2 won. You can also find my phone number on the link below in my signature.

I was using the AntiSplat gust lock. The wind pushed the elevator hard enough to pull the stick aft. That allowed the bars to the rudder pedals to fall away and dislodge from the pedals. The rudder was free moving at that point.

If anyone can help please call my cell.

Thanks,
 
It won’t help this case but I have an unused 8/ late 6/ early 7 rudder on the shelf at home in Milwaukee if needed. This is the early smaller counterbalanced version with .020 skins. Built but needs the fiberglass bits riveted on.
 
Doug,
Just a note about your previous post above about the fiberglass caps. They do not have to be attached to the rudder to fly the rudder. Talking from experience having done so flying home from OSH in 2017 when I had to replace my damaged rudder here at OSH then. Yes, you read that correctly! This is the second time at OSH I have had my rudder damaged at OSH!
 
It won’t help this case but I have an unused 8/ late 6/ early 7 rudder on the shelf at home in Milwaukee if needed. This is the early smaller counterbalanced version with .020 skins. Built but needs the fiberglass bits riveted on.

Jeff, I would welcome a conversation with you. I am at the homebuilt pavilion most of today, or call my cell. Thanks.

I do have an RV9A so not sure if that would work for me or not. Anyone else please keep me in mind.
 
Steve

Sorry for your plight
A potential TEMP fix to get you home- I assume you have inspected the rudder & elevators for any other damages, the real repair would be either outright replacement or re-skinning your rudder.

-go down to the EAA emergency repair area (I think down near Classic Aircraft camping)
- ask for a bit of .025 aluminum (2024 0r 6061 doesn't matter) 4" square, cut it diagonally to give you two triangles
- borrow a drill & .030 bit, pull rivetter & some .030 pull rivets
- sandwich the damaged area with the two triangles & drill through the trailing edge & bottom rib of the rudder & secure with the pop rivets.

Last note to appease the folks that would be concerned about balance & flutter - Its a 9.. I would assume Steve would think it wise to not be a speed demon flying home...
 
I hate to tag onto someone else’s thread. I have a damaged rudder also from last night’s storm at OSH. View attachment 28562

View attachment 28563

View attachment 28564in my case the trailing edge rivets at the bottom of the rudder unzipped.

I am going to need a new rudder if anyone else has a 7,9,14 rudder I would appreciate talking to you. I have talked with Van this morning and discussed my damage. He believes I can repair it and fly home. However, it will have to be replaced once home.

If anyone has a built 7,9,14 rudder they can sell me please call me: four O fife ate 2 two zero six 2 won. You can also find my phone number on the link below in my signature.

I was using the AntiSplat gust lock. The wind pushed the elevator hard enough to pull the stick aft. That allowed the bars to the rudder pedals to fall away and dislodge from the pedals. The rudder was free moving at that point.

If anyone can help please call my cell.

Thanks,

Steve,
I have a completed rudder except for the fiberglass. I called the number above, the mailbox was full and was “Jacob Duncan.” Not sure I got the number.

https://andycrabtree.smugmug.com/RV7-Tail-4-Sale
 
Rudder damage cause

Ok. I talked with Larry and it seems he has action in place to allow him to get home. Thanx for those that are assisting him.
I got the scoop on what his control lock was that DID NOT FAIL. It held the rudder tightly at the top where he had it installed. It was mounted on the rudder portion protruding forward (counter balance) and the vertical stab, using zip ties. It held tightly but the wind forced the bottom of the rudder to the left.
Pix below.
He used 2 “bondo” spreaders on each side with 2 holes drilled in each for the zip ties.
He used a similar setup for the elevators and ailerons, but just 1 “bondo” spreader on each side. They held and had no damage to the elevators or ailerons.
Larry- if I have anything wrong or u can add anything here, please correct me or add info here.
 

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Ok. I talked with Larry and it seems he has action in place to allow him to get home. Thanx for those that are assisting him.
I got the scoop on what his control lock was that DID NOT FAIL. It held the rudder tightly at the top where he had it installed. It was mounted on the rudder portion protruding forward (counter balance) and the vertical stab, using zip ties. It held tightly but the wind forced the bottom of the rudder to the left.
Pix below.
He used 2 “bondo” spreaders on each side with 2 holes drilled in each for the zip ties.
He used a similar setup for the elevators and ailerons, but just 1 “bondo” spreader on each side. They held and had no damage to the elevators or ailerons.
Larry- if I have anything wrong or u can add anything here, please correct me or add info here.

Curious… if it didn’t fail why all the duct tape ? Was the hole in the rudder previously? Trying to learn something here .
 
Curious… if it didn’t fail why all the duct tape ? Was the hole in the rudder previously? Trying to learn something here .

No doubt the duck tape was added after the damage incident to minimize continued flopping around of the rudder.

Really sad. At OSH you don't necessarily have the option of tying down pointed into the wind - even if you knew which direction the wind might come from.

The cause of damage here is that if you restrain the rudder motion at either end -- either the top at the counterweight or at the bottom by any control lock that keeps the rudder horn from moving -- either way, the aerodynamic load from the wind is distributed along the whole length of the rudder, so there is a lot of torsional moment put into the rudder. At some load, the rudder skins will buckle in the areas between the stiffeners.
Arguably restraining the counterweight is slightly better than restraining the rudder horn, because the skin bay between the counterweight rib and the first stiffener below it is smaller than the skin bay between the bottom rib and the first stiffener above that. The smaller bay of unsupported skin takes a higher buckling load. Also presumably there is some 'boundary layer' in the wind, so that the wind velocity on the upper half of the rudder is probably a bit more than on the lower half, so the upper restraint is probably closer to the effective point of application of the aero load.

The only way to prevent the torsional moment that causes this is to restrain BOTH the counterweight and the rudder horn. That allows the aerodynamic load to be shared by both restraints.
 
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The duct tape was added the next morning, after the failure.
Thanx for your opinion Steve.
I will continue to restrain my rudder at the horn because, even tho it is contrary to your theory, it has worked for me thru 2 disastrous OSH storms.
 
The duct tape was added the next morning, after the failure.
Thanx for your opinion Steve.
I will continue to restrain my rudder at the horn because, even tho it is contrary to your theory, it has worked for me thru 2 disastrous OSH storms.

Yeah, I think the distinction between restraining upper or lower might be splitting hairs. But if you already have a good restraint on the bottom (at the horn) then it is pretty fast and cheap to add the additional restraint at the counterweight as well - use an AirGizmo one, or roll your own. I think something maybe stiffer than bondo-spreaders though. I think having both restraints would give me a lot of peace-of-mind overnight when a storm is pounding away.
 
Jeff, I would welcome a conversation with you. I am at the homebuilt pavilion most of today, or call my cell. Thanks.

I do have an RV9A so not sure if that would work for me or not. Anyone else please keep me in mind.

My rudder wouldn’t work on a 9, sorry.
 
I have a DIY (aluminum) restraint for my 7 rudder that is between the rudder and HS. I have wondered about it slipping to the pivot and allowing movement.

That could have happened here . . . where the nylon stretched as the parts displaced and pushed the "lock" closer into the pivot until the nylon stretch allowed sufficient rudder displacement to make contact. Make sense?

Also, I have wondered about the calculated torque that could be generated to test the lock. Steve (Smith), is there a straight forward - worst case angle for the wind to calculate the torque vs gust velocity? This might help understand the design requirement.

Edit: Steve, I looked at a NASA L/D curve for a thin flat plate and it had a .7 CL at ~10 deg. Using that and an online lift calculator, 936 in2 for the rudder (7/9) and 12" from area center to the pivot line. The "lift" calculator yielded 42 lbf at 53 kt (88 ft/s). Is this in the ball park? I don't know the 14 rudder dimensions.
 
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Hi VAF community! This is Larry (aka the guy with the twisted rudder). It's been a sleepless night and a busy day, but things are looking better thanks to all of your help.

The damaged rudder has been removed from the plane. Confirming our original assessment, the broken trailing edge and buckled skin resulted in a complete lack of torsional stiffness. I am grateful for all of the help. Updates will be coming.
 
VAF at its best

''Keith, tell your 14A guy Randy is boxing it up today and it’ll be shipped via UPS tomorrow. I’ll have more information down the road.''
-----------------------
Absolutely amazing...4 hrs after the mishap was reported and there is already a fix in the works...outstanding..;);)

Bruno
 
I saw this Posted in the forum classified today…..

FS: RV-14A Tail Kit with tail strobe / trim servo, C-Frame
 
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''Keith, tell your 14A guy Randy is boxing it up today and it’ll be shipped via UPS tomorrow. I’ll have more information down the road.''
-----------------------
Absolutely amazing...4 hrs after the mishap was reported and there is already a fix in the works...outstanding..;);)

Bruno

The Power of VAF Bruno :D I experienced it first hand in the middle of nowhere. Was ready to roll next day...

14.jpg
 
I have a DIY (aluminum) restraint for my 7 rudder that is between the rudder and HS. I have wondered about it slipping to the pivot and allowing movement.

That could have happened here . . . where the nylon stretched as the parts displaced and pushed the "lock" closer into the pivot until the nylon stretch allowed sufficient rudder displacement to make contact. Make sense?

Also, I have wondered about the calculated torque that could be generated to test the lock. Steve (Smith), is there a straight forward - worst case angle for the wind to calculate the torque vs gust velocity? This might help understand the design requirement.

Edit: Steve, I looked at a NASA L/D curve for a thin flat plate and it had a .7 CL at ~10 deg. Using that and an online lift calculator, 936 in2 for the rudder (7/9) and 12" from area center to the pivot line. The "lift" calculator yielded 42 lbf at 53 kt (88 ft/s). Is this in the ball park? I don't know the 14 rudder dimensions.

“GustBuster Guy” has done the calculations and made spring loaded tubes for the rudder pedals and a bungee lock for the control sticks to absorb the gusts and allow them to move. A fixed rudder on the RV will bend around 50knts @ 90 degrees every time.

I’m one of the lucky ones who has his control locks for my 7.

I think it was too much trouble for the sales at the time and he doesn’t offer his control locks anymore. Kinda wondering if someone bought his design rights etc if they couldn’t get 1000 orders for it by the end of OSH 22’.
 
I agree with what others have surmised; that the lack of material stiffness of the stacked poly spreaders contributed to the failure. The gust lock did hold, however under heavy load it did flex, inducing a rolling force on the counter weight. This rolling force caused the structure immediately below to buckle inward. At this point the gust lock twisted out of the then widened gap and the rudder slammed into the elevator.
 
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Worse damage I found nearby my row 315 is Larry’s RV14A. He had a gust lock on it but 50+ kts twisted it anyway. Pix will be below. He’s looking for ideas from those that know more as to temporary fix, if needed, to get home 1800 miles away. He’s asked me to post this and will watch for replies. If anyone can help please reply here.

Update Monday morning. Keith, my friend is flying up here tomorrow in a bonanza and he’s going to bring the replacement rudder with him. So it will be on the field tomorrow and I’ll let you know when we have it

V/r,dr
 
Thinking how I would get home.

And I remind myself that opinions are the lowest form of fact.

You have technical advisors at the vans tent. Talk to them. A bit of light bending on the trailing edge may be all that is needed to get home.

Make a doubler if needed.

Once straightened, get a pop rivet tool and some rivets, cordless drill and bit, and a piece of sheet aluminum. Bend it to form a trailing edge and blind rivet it into place. Sine you are at Oshkosh, you should be able to lay your hands on the needed items.
 
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Thank you for the update Doug.And thank you Keith for flying the rudder up here! I'm gathering up pop riveting tools etc. today. I look forward to seeing you all tomorrow. Now I have a worry free day to enjoy the show!
 
Rudder

I have a rudder lock in the cockpit of my 8 , secures the cables / rudder horn . After reading through this thread I’m adding a gust lock at the top for added security.
Glad the damaged planes found resources for getting them replaced & fixed .
Glad I was able to learn a little something too .
I’ll be at Oshkosh Wednesday 👍
 
Status update:

Worse damage I found nearby my row 315 is Larry’s RV14A. He had a gust lock on it but 50+ kts twisted it anyway. Pix will be below. He’s looking for ideas from those that know more as to temporary fix, if needed, to get home 1800 miles away. He’s asked me to post this and will watch for replies. If anyone can help please reply here.

Good morning Keith. The replacement rudder should arrive sometime Thursday and I’m gonna go try to take possession of it. Could you reach out to me via email and let’s exchange contact information?

We should hopefully be able to get it in your possession sometime Friday and get it bolted on for your return trip home.

Kindest regards,
dr
 
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Thank you for the update Doug.And thank you Keith for flying the rudder up here! I'm gathering up pop riveting tools etc. today. I look forward to seeing you all tomorrow. Now I have a worry free day to enjoy the show!

Good morning Larry (I set this same text to Keith in an earlier reply, then found your reply further down). The replacement rudder should arrive sometime Thursday. Could you reach out to me via email and let’s exchange contact information?

Kindest regards,
dr
 
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RV7A Rudder closer to Oshkosh

I have the first rudder I put on my RV7A that I replaced with the new larger one.
I'm located 2 1/2 hour drive south of Oshkosh. Monroe, WI (KEFT)
Don't think you could fly down in an RV and be able to put it inside!
Phone number 608-966-3425 (Home number)
 
Hi Bill- It's wonderful to know that I have many options now to get me home. I was feeling fairly anxious over the weekend before I had a plan! Thank you for providing this second good option...
 
Gust Locks

I was at OSH on Saturday when the big blow came through. There were several A models damaged in my row along with more in the row in front and back of me. I have now gone through 2 - 50+ mph winds quartering on my rudder and survived no issues. Having a 14 at the show draws a lot of questions (Seems there are many in the build stage) and I show them my set-up and others around that did not do so well. I would be sick if mine was damaged after 5 years and 3,000 + hours of build time. One builder told me he would not return to OSH in the future. I would highly recommend rvplasticparts. My first gust locks I 3 D printed also with similar design, but these are much better. Mine is a A model.

https://www.rvplasticparts.com/
 
For those of us who couldn't make it to Oshkosh, it would be much appreciated if someone went around and compiled a quick list of the types of rudder locks which DID work as intended. Please?
 
I was at OSH on Saturday when the big blow came through

Same here… still don’t understand why 99% of the HBC aircraft park tail into wind, i.e. tails West, when prevailing strong winds are westerlies… every year :confused:
 
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list of the types of rudder locks which DID work as intended

Went around… of those mostly exposed RVs, all the ones having the rudder TE held by an angle linked to both sides of the HS held. Same for the ones having padded strings slung on the VS/rudder.

Most failures were noted on self made fuselage rudder stops.
Noteworthy is that the Gizmo type of the title aircraft held good, but the rudder just bent due to it’s size and the very strong winds. Good luck with the replacement Larry, nice talking to you.
On one aircraft I was told by the owner that the anti-splat just broke…
 
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ULTIMATE GUST LOCKS FOR RVS

The one that I saw the owner looking at in his was the ULTIMATE GUST LOCKS FOR RVS with a damaged rudder. He made the comment it was tight or as tight as he could get it. I did not want to ask anyone what they were using as they were already upset as one can imagine. Maybe someone from the OSH ground volunteer group can comment on why we were marshaled facing east. It's a good question.
 
I was at OSH on Saturday when the big blow came through. There were several A models damaged in my row along with more in the row in front and back of me. I have now gone through 2 - 50+ mph winds quartering on my rudder and survived no issues. Having a 14 at the show draws a lot of questions (Seems there are many in the build stage) and I show them my set-up and others around that did not do so well. I would be sick if mine was damaged after 5 years and 3,000 + hours of build time. One builder told me he would not return to OSH in the future. I would highly recommend rvplasticparts. My first gust locks I 3 D printed also with similar design, but these are much better. Mine is a A model.

https://www.rvplasticparts.com/

This is really the only way to gain the leverage needed to hold the rudder. While this is very simple to make, I’m sure many would rather buy it. However, I strongly recommend not using bungee cords. You do not want any momentum from the rudder whipping around in the wind.

Carl
 
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