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Buggered Rudder Skin, Cosmetic or...

StickNRudder

Active Member
Well I have been sailing along and then while trying to set the end rivets of the tip rib, the squeezer got caught on the bottom and twisted into the skin. I don't really care if it is just cosmetic but I don't want any structural issues.

My opinion is it is ok and will get smoothed out when painted. What do you think?

And yes, I switched to pop-rivets to avoid further damage.

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Personally, I would be happy to leave it as-is. I did a similar thing to my lower left elevator when I back-riveted the last rivet on one stiffener and the bloody thing was a bees-d1ck off the backing plate. I left it there.
 
I ran the backrivet set off the plate on one of my last rudder stiffeners, and the dent didn't look as bad as yours, but upon close observation, the skin was actually cracked. I replaced it. (I also have .016" skins, so you have stronger metal there.)
 
It would drive me crazy! I remember those tight rivets and yes, there is an extra buggered up rudder hanging on my wall of shame. I used it to practice painting.
 
It would drive me crazy! I remember those tight rivets and yes, there is an extra buggered up rudder hanging on my wall of shame. I used it to practice painting.

That is not a wall of shame. It is a display of commitment to a self-imposed standard.

Here are the best written standards available, in a format designed to make decision easy (with shameless credit to the EAA). Note "airworthy" is not a very high bar.

 
In my case my goal is to be flying (a lot) in two years. I will absolutely build a quality airplane as defined by the mil-spec and the FAA accepted practices which I refer to constantly. I think it comes down to personal goals. My goal is to be in the air, not the garage. I think if my dad was to build, it would be just the opposite. The only bad answer is unsafe.
 
Really?

Dave
Whats the problem? I riveted the entire lower QB wing skins with MK-319-BS pop rivets. They have sufficient strength and resulted in a safer airplane overall as I knew every rivet I set was acceptable, versus trying to set some awkward ones solo and have to re drill them.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using blind rivets so long as you choose ones of acceptable strength.
 
The numbers on the right side of judgement tree could also be years to build.

The two small dings are combat airworthy. Fill before paint and they become #10's on chart.

If cracks show under microscope drill out and fill with something, or leave the upper one open for moisture relief.

Press on post haste! :)
 
No issue with the MK-319-BS blind rivets. The phrase "Pop rivets," though, implies something considerably less, and is worth clarifying. If in fact "Pop-rivets" were used, they should be replaced with the MK-319-BS rivets or AD solid rivets.

Terminology matters.

Dave
P.S. I replaced my entire horizontal stabilizer for less damage, just trying to be airworthy. It's described here. Please see post #14.
 
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Rudder

Poor workmanship no matter how you look at it. Take some pride in what you are building , if flying tomorrow is your goal go buy a finished plane .
 
No issue with the MK-319-BS blind rivets. The phrase "Pop rivets," though, implies something considerably less, and is worth clarifying. If in fact "Pop-rivets" were used, they should be replaced with the MK-319-BS rivets or AD solid rivets.

Terminology matters.
Aaahh, indeed it does, and I now see the intent behind what you posted. Not so much questioning the blind rivets, but using "Pop Rivets", a brand name that may not necessarily have the required strength. Apologies for any offence.


g zero said:
Poor workmanship no matter how you look at it. Take some pride in what you are building , if flying tomorrow is your goal go buy a finished plane.
That's a big call. A bloody big call! :mad: It is not poor workmanship at all, take a look at the rest of his rivets in the reflected light, barely a ripple outside a nice crisp dimple, and without seeing the shop heads, I'd say it is pretty good workmanship all round, with one error that is bloody easy to make.

I have a lot of pride in my RV, but I also have a couple of dings in various places. One behind the canopy on the aft deck, one under the left elevator, a little dint in the HS, a scratch in an elevator, a figure-8 dimple somewhere I can't even remember and you know what? I don't give a hoot!. Because they are not safety-of-flight matters, each one has a story (and a lesson) behind it and even though they are cosmetic blemishes, they were a part of the process that saw me build a real-life, flying aeroplane in my backyard! and that is why I have no problem with others seeing them, because they go to show that you don't have to build a perfect plane, but even with minor dings here and there, the result is still a safe plane.
 
I am wrong ? Would you accept sub par quality at your place of business ?

I have been an engineering manager for over twenty years and have been responsible for many systems from robotics to electronic test systems. Not one was perfect, but EVERY one met the design specifications and the customer requirements.

In my airplane, I am perfectly willing to accept a cosmetic flaw. I am not willing to accept a flaw that could compromise safety. That is MY definition of quality. For example, I had an oblong hole in a spar, I replaced it and everything affected.

I applaud your pursuit of perfection. Just don't call it quality. I am sure you will have a stunning aircraft that you will rightfully be proud of. Mine may not win any awards but I will be proud of her none the less and will enjoy seeing this great country from a vantage point that few others get to experience. Upside down!
 
No issue with the MK-319-BS blind rivets. The phrase "Pop rivets," though, implies something considerably less, and is worth clarifying....
You are quite correct sir, I followed the Van's manual which states, "holes may be enlarged to 7/64? and MK-319-BS blind rivets may be substituted for the last one or two AN rivets."
 
Dan H., thanks for the chart. I haven't see it before but I can tell that I was always striving for the 10 category and may have accepted a 9 if that was the best I could achieve after several attempts to reach 10. Unfortunately that is why it took 6 years to get the project in the air but I would do it the same if I did it over again.
 
That'l rub right out. :eek:
If unsure, have an experienced builder look at it.
Your airplane. Your judgement. Your responsibility. Your decision.
Build what You want and how want. Follow the plans and AC-43. Fix what isnt airworthy and accept or fix cosmetic issues as you see fit. Period.
You will have more fun that way than worrying about conforming to someone else's ideal.
 
On the pop rivet thing

Just going to chime in on the pop rivets thing.

The MK-319-BS rivets are well in-line with the Van's Manual/Plans for the last two holes as you mentioned. (Although I found that 7/64" hole did not allow the rivet to sit flush, the #33 hole was perfect). My thought process is that I'm trying to build a nice plane, not a show plane so I'm ok with simple processes like pop rivets. (I tried to do the EAA indirect rivet technique, but I just couldn't get it to set nice on my test pieces:rolleyes:)
 
Just going to chime in on the pop rivets thing.

The MK-319-BS rivets are well in-line with the Van's Manual/Plans for the last two holes as you mentioned. (Although I found that 7/64" hole did not allow the rivet to sit flush, the #33 hole was perfect). My thought process is that I'm trying to build a nice plane, not a show plane so I'm ok with simple processes like pop rivets. (I tried to do the EAA indirect rivet technique, but I just couldn't get it to set nice on my test pieces:rolleyes:)

Just another piece of data...pulled rivets oftentimes have 120 degree angles on the flush heads, NOT 100 degrees. You can buy 120 countersinks and dimple dies for these cases, and they'll sit flush better if you do.
 
No issue with the MK-319-BS blind rivets. The phrase "Pop rivets," though, implies something considerably less, and is worth clarifying. If in fact "Pop-rivets" were used, they should be replaced with the MK-319-BS rivets or AD solid rivets.

Terminology matters.

Dave
P.S. I replaced my entire horizontal stabilizer for less damage, just trying to be airworthy. It's described here. Please see post #14.

Terminology does matter...

However, in this case MK319BS as mentioned by Vans is actually a "POP" rivet company part number...:)

POP is the brand name of the original manufacturer, now owned by Stanley Engineered Fastening, a division of Stanley Black & Decker
 
I know it is agonizing to bugger up something like this on the beginning of the project. Hopes are high for perfection and then are dashed.
Here's my advice: build on.
5 years later after doing the wings, fuselage, finish kit if this still bothers you, then fix it or build a new one. You will have gained lots of perspective during the build, so don't sweat this now.
 
Dear SticknRudder, I'm not going to give you my opinion as to whether you should accept that damage or not. In the end YOU have to make the decision. Asking other builders on VansAirforce is largely useless in cases like this. Builders with dings all over their aircraft will tell you to bog it up and move on. Those who are compelled to build to a higher standard will tell you to repair or replace the defect. In essence the advice you will get will say more about the project/aircraft owned by the poster and their attitude to building than it will about your problem.

I recommend you take some more pix and send them to Vans for a structural assessment. If Vans thinks it is not a structural issue then you simply have to decide whether the defect meets your own aesthetic standards.

Having said that I would make the following comments.

1. When you get into tight spaces for riveting you should be prepared to consider grinding down/reshaping a bucking bar specifically for the task. That's what good builders do. Buy some scrap steel pieces of different cross sections to modify. There's very few places on an RV7(A) that you can't access with the right bucking bar.

2. Don't try to develop new riveting skiils on the actual aircraft. If you do you are destined to end up with a very ordinary plane. Practice new techniques on scrap otherwise your aircraft becomes the scrap.

3. This defect is on the empennage. That's the very start of the aircraft. What you are prepared to accept at this stage establishes the benchmark for the whole plane.

4. What you build is what you are.
 
I know it is agonizing to bugger up something like this on the beginning of the project. Hopes are high for perfection and then are dashed.
Here's my advice: build on.
5 years later after doing the wings, fuselage, finish kit if this still bothers you, then fix it or build a new one. You will have gained lots of perspective during the build, so don't sweat this now.

I'm with you Bruce,a couple years down the road he should revisit the rudder and see if it meets with his approval based on the rest of the build. At that point do you think you really want to put a $300 dinged up rudder on a $100 K airplane ? This is assuming it cannot be cosmetically repaired. Based on the pictures, I don't think there is a structural issue.
 
I'm with you Bruce,a couple years down the road he should revisit the rudder and see if it meets with his approval based on the rest of the build. At that point do you think you really want to put a $300 dinged up rudder on a $100 K airplane ? This is assuming it cannot be cosmetically repaired. Based on the pictures, I don't think there is a structural issue.
In the end, this may in fact be what I will do. I am already thinking of paint schemes that will allow easy replacement of the rudder (I like the checkerboard I've seen on some). For now I will press on. Later, who knows?

Thank you for ALL of the opinions. They are all helpful in seeing things from many perspectives.
 
Dan H., thanks for the chart. I haven't see it before but I can tell that I was always striving for the 10 category and may have accepted a 9 if that was the best I could achieve after several attempts to reach 10. Unfortunately that is why it took 6 years to get the project in the air but I would do it the same if I did it over again.

And you'd win another Lindy, too! :D
 
Thanks Katie,

Never intended to build a show plane, just wanted to do the best I could and be happy with it. Got talked into entering the compatition not even knowing what was involved. Compatition must have been week that year :D

The important factor to me is that it flys like a dream!

(PS: I do have two smiles that I will leave in place for ever. They were created by my 86 year old dad who slipped with the rivet gun in a really hard place to reach. I was inside with the bucking bar and knew right away what happened. At first I was unhappy but after thinking about it for a few days and knowing it wasnt structural or even visable to most casual observers, I decided to leave them as a legacy to my father. The judges at Kosh didn't even see them or if they did, didnt mention them!)
 
(PS: I do have two smiles that I will leave in place for ever. They were created by my 86 year old dad who slipped with the rivet gun in a really hard place to reach. I was inside with the bucking bar and knew right away what happened. At first I was unhappy but after thinking about it for a few days and knowing it wasnt structural or even visable to most casual observers, I decided to leave them as a legacy to my father. The judges at Kosh didn't even see them or if they did, didnt mention them!)

and those smileys with give you an inner smile every time you look at them. great call.
 
(PS: I do have two smiles that I will leave in place for ever. They were created by my 86 year old dad who slipped with the rivet gun in a really hard place to reach. I was inside with the bucking bar and knew right away what happened. At first I was unhappy but after thinking about it for a few days and knowing it wasnt structural or even visable to most casual observers, I decided to leave them as a legacy to my father. The judges at Kosh didn't even see them or if they did, didnt mention them!)

LIKE.....:)
 
Being fastidious , every little mark bothered me. Then one day a friend said; look at them as birth marks. They are memories of the time spent with a great hobby. And if they really bother you , well then replace.
I mostly took his advice . And still the plane is near perfect I've been told.
 
(PS: I do have two smiles that I will leave in place for ever. They were created by my 86 year old dad who slipped with the rivet gun in a really hard place to reach. I was inside with the bucking bar and knew right away what happened. At first I was unhappy but after thinking about it for a few days and knowing it wasnt structural or even visable to most casual observers, I decided to leave them as a legacy to my father. The judges at Kosh didn't even see them or if they did, didnt mention them!)

What a cool story!! :D
 
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