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Please don't hit skydivers

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Danger Will Robinson

Active Member
For years I have watched conflicts between aircraft and skydivers increase at Zephyrhills FL during Sun N Fun.

Be advised that KZPH is home of Skydive city http://www.skydivecity.com one of the largest Drop Zones in the country.

It is also just outside the eastern edge of the Tampa class B airspace.

This year due to an early Easter the winter season is winding down but their is still plenty of jumping activity going on, especially on weekends.

The Sun N Fun notam advises to use caution for parachute jumping at Zephyrhills and Lakeland South. But what is cautious?

If you are not talking to Tampa approach on 119.9 I recommend transitioning aircraft give the SouthEast corner of ZPH a 1.5 mile berth. Here's a pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25314173@N08/?saved=1

To understand how see and avoid between Jumpers and A/C is so difficult here's a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu3nAfP0TxA&feature=related

Fly Safe and See you at Sun N Fun
 
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Wow... that video is something else. What a lucky guy! I wonder if the pilot even saw him as he passed.... :eek:
 
Danger Will Robinson said:
For years I have watched conflicts between aircraft and skydivers increase at Zephyrhills during Sun N Fun.

Be advised that KZPH is home to one of the largest Drop Zones in the country...
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That sounds like a real good area to avoid and it seems pretty easy to do so. The NOTAM only covers about 100 square statute miles.

What do you do with this one?

"Salt Flat [SFL VOR]: October NOTAM #460 issued by Albuquerque NM [ABQ]
Airspace parachute jumping excercise 15 nautical mile radius SFL13307.8 FL200/below 1300-0500 daily effective from October 18th, 2009 at 07:00 AM MDT (0910181300) - October 29th, 2009 at 11:00 PM MDT (0910200600)"

About 1,000 square statute miles covering most of the airspace in the narrow corridor between Mexico and the huge White Sands Missile Range with many many victor airways going through the NOTAM area.

Salt Flat Mystery Airport
 
It's see and be seen, skydivers. VFR.

Practically speaking, you're a much smaller target and **decending from above**. That puts the obligation to avoid on jumpers as I see it.

If they're over the drop zone, they probably aren't aware of the hazard/NOTAM. Not aware, they aren't looking for jumpers, and sure aren't looking up.
 
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Low Pass said:
It's see and be seen, skydivers. VFR.

Practically speaking, you're a much smaller target and **decending from above**. That puts the obligation to avoid on jumpers as I see it.

If they're over the drop zone, they probably aren't aware of the hazard/NOTAM. Not aware, they aren't looking for jumpers, and sure aren't looking up.
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Jump operations often play around the margins (or beyond the margins) of the rules, so I avoid flying anywhere near airspace that may be populated by meat bombs. A year or so ago I was on an X/C to Charleston, SC and my course was gonna take me right over a field that has a skydiving operation. I detoured 5 miles north and listened on the radio.

There was a broken overcast above me with a solid thin layer (possibly transparent if you were looking straight down) above that. The skydivers jumped through the whole mess. Having meat-bombs popping through (or around) the ~5,000 layer with 500' to see and avoid just wasn't my cup of tea. I was very glad I'd detoured around the area.

The thing is, if you have a collision with a skydiver, you're probably both dead, regardless of who caused the accident.
 
Anyone that would jump out of a perfectly good flying airplane... Well... it's like a bird. Most of the time you can miss them.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
......Jump operations often play around the margins (or beyond the margins) of the rules, so I avoid flying anywhere near airspace that may be populated by meat bombs.......
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I stay well clear just for this reason. You never know what's going to fall out of the clouds in these areas.

As for see and be seen, that's what I meant. My point was jumpers have the same obligation. But they don't understand or appreciate this.

Glad you're trying educate pilots. But I just think time and money is better spent (trying to) educating the jumpers, because they're - for the most part - pretty clueless about the rules of the road.
 
As a skydiver, I got to interject. Lets look at the physics of it all. We are traveling vertically between 2 and 3 miles a minute with little ability to move horizontally. With perfect form, and time to accelerate, we could get close to about a 100 mph horizontal movement, but in reality, as shown in the video posted, the skydiver is probably going to have very little time after seeing an aircraft. When exiting the jump plane, our visibility and ability to look for other aircraft (that are 2-3 miles below us and 2-4 miles laterally if they are on a collision course with us) is often restricted. Depending on the aircraft, we may have 180 degrees of vertical and horizontal view on a side exit aircraft, excluding the area blocked by the wing and tail. On rear exit craft, we are lucky to see 60-90 degrees of view in either direction. So if we have very limited visibility before we jump, and have little control of our trajectory (in the time allotted if we find our self in a "Oh $&!T there is a plane!" situation) it is not in anyones interest to put the burden of "You get out of the way" on the "meatbombs." As I see it, it is much more of a "Faster, more maneuverable craft give way to slower, less maneuverable craft." Even at 200 mph, an RV has the ability to change trajectory (up, down, left and right) much faster, and to a greater degree and any skydiver. They also have the ability to know ahead of time when/where drop zones are active, monitor that airports frequencies as to when "jumpers away", and plan flight paths around such airspace. Jumpers have no ability to know when other aircraft are going to penetrate our airspace, airspace that is a pretty narrow 5-10 thousand foot wide cylinder of air from ground to about 15k AGL, and have to fly in if we want to land back at the airport. So while it is the responsibility of every person in the sky to "maintain safe distance from other craft", I believe the aircraft have a much better stocked "toolbox" to solve the problem, and physical abilities to prevent midair collisions with skydivers. As long as we all do, as much as we can do, we should be able to coexist.

Low Pass said:
Glad you're trying educate pilots. But I just think time and money is better spent (trying to) educating the jumpers, because they're - for the most part - pretty clueless about the rules of the road.
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Don't forget Lake Wales...

It's also important to point out the dropzone at Lake Wales (X07) is very active. It is a good area to avoid when traveling to and from LAL.

I've been a professional skydiver for a few years and I've had a number of semi-close calls with other aircraft that seem to concentrate around SnF. A pilot should always exercise extra caution when flying in the vicinity of jump operations. Monitoring the CTAF or approach frequencies can clue you in to when groups will be exiting, but the best thing you can do is simply avoid the area. Skydivers rarely end up more than three miles (usually less than 1.5) from their intended landing point, so giving a wide berth to this area when jump operations are taking place will keep everybody out of harm's way. Also, the aircraft dropping jumpers will fly a jump run into the winds aloft so that the skydivers end up opening their canopies upwind of the intended landing point. Larger dropzones like Zephyrhills usually operate Twin Otters, Skyvans and other large aircraft which may be carrying upwards of 20 jumpers. Those 20 or so jumpers often exit in several groups of two to six with a group leaving the airplane every 5 to 15 seconds depending on the aircraft's ground speed at altitude. If you see a group of jumpers open in front of your aircraft, expect another to open a few tenths of a mile upwind in roughly ten seconds.

Low Pass said:
As for see and be seen, that's what I meant. My point was jumpers have the same obligation. But they don't understand or appreciate this.
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Skydivers are taught to use their eyes and scan the area before leaving the airplane, but remember, a group leaves the airplane every 5-15 seconds, so there isn't very much time for scanning. Skydivers jumping from 13,500 AGL will freefall for roughly a minute before opening their parachutes, usually at altitudes between 2000 and 6000 AGL. If a skydiver looks down before jumping and sees your RV a few miles away from where he will be opening, he may figure that you're far enough away for him to jump safely. If he's in freefall for a minute, by the time he gets to opening altitude, your RV has traveled over three miles, quite possibly into what he thought would be clear airspace when he exited the airplane... Remember this is working on the assumption that he sees you in the first place.

It's see and be seen, skydivers. VFR.

Practically speaking, you're a much smaller target and **decending from above**. That puts the obligation to avoid on jumpers as I see it.
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Skydivers are a smaller target, sure, but they are by FAR less maneuverable. Descending from above is a moot point when the only direction that you're capable of going is down. While in freefall, they are stuck going pretty much straight down. Under canopy, they have good directional control but are fairly slow moving and only capable of descending at a glide ratio of at best 5:1. This restricts parachutes to a very small bit of airspace above and upwind of their intended target. Due to this fact, I think the obligation to avoid lies in the hands of pilots. Just avoid these very small areas around dropzones and there will be no chance of collision.

That said, I hope everyone has a safe trip to Sun-N-Fun! I'll see you there. If anybody wants to know more about parachute operations, feel free to ask.
 
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Why wouldn't the jumpers just play it smart and cease jumping during the week of SNF if they're in an area where there may be conflicts with the high volume aircraft traffic?


Glenn Wilkinson
 
It would seem to me....

...that it would be prudent to consider stopping jump activities for one weekend, since there is going to be a heavy population of transient aircraft.

Not doing so means that the risk is now in the hands of the jumpers/jump school, since they're aware of the heavy traffic but choose to jump anyway.

Either that, or jump during airshow times (12:30 p.m.-5:30 p.m.) at LAL when there will be no transient Sun 'n Fun airplanes.

Flame away....
 
I can't believe what I am reading here.
Stop jump operation for a week or the weekend on a drop Zone that has been established for decades?
The DZ is clearly marked on your sectional and skydivers are confined to that space. Read it!
Having dropped over 20000 skydivers in years past I remember the scariest thing about it was the oblivious GA pilots on their Sunday outings busting through an active drop zone utterly clueless about the airspace they were in.
Seriously, there is room for all of us just avoid the DZ, a small dog leg around it will set you back a couple of minutes on arrival.
If we could make the skydivers stop I am sure some else could make us stop.
Next time someone has wedding next to your airport and decides to stop them noisy little airplanes just for a day.
Think about that.
 
I would contend that it is IMPOSIBLE for a pilot to see (or avoid) a skydiver in freefall. Spotting another airplane is hard enough. Best to stay out of the way all together.

The traffic at ZPH can get CRAZY during SNF week. Flew in there in a King Air last year. All the traffic of a SNF arrival, with none of the control. Add skydivers, glider operations, and airplanes of all sizes and speeds landing on intersecting runways. :eek: Wheew. Keep your eyes open - or stop somewhere else. Or both.
 
While I am in support of Skydivers excercising their priveleges just like we do as pilots, I have a major problem with those that do not follow the rules.

We have had an explosion of new mom and pop operations popping up around here and some of them do not follow the rules.

Some do not have Notams, don't use the radio or are talking on some frequency nobody knows about.

Some are droping in the middle of an airway right next to a published holding fix that is used all the time for IFR training.

Go read some of the comments on that video posted above. You will see that most people do not have any idea what the rules are and who is responsible for what.
 
What prevents the jump plane pilot from calling ARTCC and asking if there are any planes in the area before dropping the skydivers?
 
I am not defending any rulebreakers.
Specifically this thread was about Zephyr Hills, a long established DZ.
As a rule the jump pilot is in contact with ATC and announces drops a minute early and specifies the altitude.
Depending on airspace, these announcements are also made on CTAF.
So, if you like to penetrate a DZ speak up and ask if a drop is imminent.
As I mentioned, the problem pilots are the oblivious ones who don't even know they are in a DZ.
 
as a jump pilot and skydiver i have always had communication with atc while monitoring ctaf switching back and forth trying to keep clear airspace and i far as i know all jump pilots do the same... but as a skydiver they do have a responsibility to see and be seen but often they put alot of that responsibility on the pilot.. i know zhills is a very busy airport the week of sun n fun just make contact with jumper one... he will love and respect a pilot that flys in and is trying to be safe for everyone
 
Please don't hit sky divers

I think pilots and sky diver should work together. I hate it when one group points fingers at another group and says you need to be restricted so I can enjoy my hobbie, sport or whatever. I always thought that the little jump symbols on the chart were not quite good enough. Jumper's always have a defined landing area and the chart should have some type of marking showing the area that jumpers could be in around that point. If it were more obvious I think pilots would fly around that area even if they are not listening to their radio and every body would be happier.
 
My .02 cents

Just watch out for the Meat Bombs and the Airplane Poop!!!!!!

People do dumb stuff all the time, I have seen them do it!!!!

Rich
 
jumpers should aim for the tail of a plane, insures they never hit it

the guys in that video didn't have a clue what to do from the look of it
 
Bdalporto said:
I always thought that the little jump symbols on the chart were not quite good enough. Jumper's always have a defined landing area and the chart should have some type of marking showing the area that jumpers could be in around that point. If it were more obvious I think pilots would fly around that area even if they are not listening to their radio and every body would be happier.
Click to expand...

Just remember that skydivers will almost always be within three miles (usually less) of that little parachute symbol and they will usually be found upwind. Avoiding these areas is a very small inconvenience in exchange for assurance that there's no chance of a collision. As others have stated, the jump plane will make radio calls before and during jump run as skydivers are exiting. These calls will be repeated to all aircraft by Center and Approach controllers in the area.

Avoid these very small areas during the few minutes between the time that skydivers exit the airplane and land. This is very simple, please don't make it any more complicated than need be. The last thing anybody needs is more regulations.
 
percentage

I suspect that amoung the various pilot communities, the Experimental sector has a larger percentage of past or present skydivers, with a higher tolerance for risk.

Besides, the ultimate experimental aircraft is the human body itself, and the feeling of flight and freedom is life changing. Letting go of any aircraft from any altitude, be it 3,000 ft or 14,500 ft stands out more prominantly in my memory than my solo in a 152, even though it was over 20 years since my last jump.

Both jumpers and pilots need to work together to keep both safe.
 
LifeofReiley said:
Anyone that would jump out of a perfectly good flying airplane...
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Holy glass houses Batman!

This reminds me of how I sometimes have to defend those general aviation private pilots that are looking for an airliner to run into or are going to crash into someones house.

We are all aviation enthusiasts.
 
BASE1127 said:
Just remember that skydivers will almost always be within three miles (usually less) of that little parachute symbol and they will usually be found upwind. Avoiding these areas is a very small inconvenience in exchange for assurance that there's no chance of a collision. As others have stated, the jump plane will make radio calls before and during jump run as skydivers are exiting. These calls will be repeated to all aircraft by Center and Approach controllers in the area.

Avoid these very small areas during the few minutes between the time that skydivers exit the airplane and land. This is very simple, please don't make it any more complicated than need be. The last thing anybody needs is more regulations.
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Sometimes it is wisdom to voluntarily not do something on a certain day. I am not saying anything should be legally prohibited, but It seems similar to going to the grocery store the day before thanksgiving and complaining about the lines. As a pilot i stay away from drop zones. I don't really feel like i can comment as a jumper because i don't do it regularly, but i have done it. As a jumper (i'll say it anyhow) I would think it is foolish to go jumping the same day a close by airport has a major fly in. I mean sun and fun is one of the top three fly ins? it just seems a little foolish to want to jump that weekend

edit hows this sound "avoid jumping near this small airport during the weekend of sun and fun, the airspace is extraordinarily crowded. all other 51 weekends are fine and all weekdays"
 
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Danny7 said:
hows this sound "avoid jumping near this small airport during the weekend of sun and fun, the airspace is extraordinarily crowded. all other 51 weekends are fine and all weekdays"
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How's this sound? "Avoid flying over Drop Zones during jump activities. The airspace is extraordinarily crowded. All other airspace is fine, even P56."
 
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Danger Will Robinson said:
How's this sound? Avoid flying over Drop Zones during jump activities. The airspace is extraordinarily crowded. All other airspace is fine, even P56.
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I certainly will stay away from drop zones. I was using the guys statement that i quoted at the end to show how sun and fun happens once a year, rational thought would be more for jumpers to exercise some common sense and pick another weekend.

hey, i am in oregon, not going to FL. I'm not advocating for any regulations. I thought it was a simple observation that air traffic would be vastly increased the weekend of SNF, and it just might be wiser to avoid jumping that weekend. Yes pilots should be aware of drop zones. If something happens because a pilot didn't notice will that help anyone that is impacted? anyhow, i think i've said my point of view, i'm going to work so:

pilots look out for drop zones! ;)
 
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Danny7 said:
I certainly will stay away from drop zones. I was using the guys statement that i quoted at the end to show how sun and fun happens once a year, rational thought would be more for jumpers to exercise some common sense and pick another weekend.
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The thing about a lot of Florida DZs is that jumpers are traveling there from Europe and all over the world. Not likely they would even know about SnF. This time of year, in Florida the drop zones are 7 day a week operations (and pretty big businesses, especially Zhills). No way the DZ operators are going to take a week off!
 
jmbaute said:
The thing about a lot of Florida DZs is that jumpers are traveling there from Europe and all over the world. Not likely they would even know about SnF. This time of year, in Florida the drop zones are 7 day a week operations (and pretty big businesses, especially Zhills). No way the DZ operators are going to take a week off!
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just a quick note, i was saying the individuals might choose a different weekend, not the business closing down.

although.... the businesses close down during bad weather right?
 
Understood. Thanks for the reminder. ;-)

DM
ex DZ pilot.

Danger Will Robinson said:
For years I have watched conflicts between aircraft and skydivers increase at Zephyrhills FL during Sun N Fun.

Be advised that KZPH is home of Skydive city http://www.skydivecity.com one of the largest Drop Zones in the country.

It is also just outside the eastern edge of the Tampa class B airspace.

This year due to an early Easter the winter season is winding down but their is still plenty of jumping activity going on, especially on weekends.

The Sun N Fun notam advises to use caution for parachute jumping at Zephyrhills and Lakeland South. But what is cautious?

If you are not talking to Tampa approach on 119.9 I recommend transitioning aircraft give the SouthEast corner of ZPH a 1.5 mile berth. Here's a pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25314173@N08/?saved=1

To understand how see and avoid between Jumpers and A/C is so difficult here's a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu3nAfP0TxA&feature=related

Fly Safe and See you at Sun N Fun
Click to expand...
 
Seems to me

that no one in his/her right mind would go anywhere near a drop zone intentionally. It's the few who get disoriented, lost, or who didn't read the charts or the notams and don't listen to the av radio on the appropriate frequency that get into trouble. Getting disoriented, not reading charts, no radio, or not reading and heeding the notams is not ok - that's for sure.

I have never jumped out of an airplane and don't have plans to but it seems to me that no matter why the aircraft is in the DZ, the jumper has the better chance to 'see and avoid' as the airplane is a lot easier so see (larger and moving slower). I don't think that I'd have time to maneuver my airplane away from a speeding skydiver even if I saw him/her 5-6 seconds above me. Probably, I'd only mutter something non-profound like Oh S*** and hope for a good outcome for us all.:eek:

My guess is that a jumper above is about the size of a fly spec until he/she appears in the field of vision of the pilot for about 1/10 of a second as he/she skydives by. IE - I think it is very unlikely that the pilot will never see the parachutist.

I'll bet that parachutists, have when they have identified an aircraft below as in the clip, avoided aircraft by pulling the rip cord well above the aircraft - they don't have to pass by like a speeding bullet. And if the parachutist doesn't land back at the airport that is better than taking a chance of a collision - right?
 
E. D. Eliot said:
I have never jumped out of an airplane and don't have plans to but it seems to me that no matter why the aircraft is in the DZ, the jumper has the better chance to 'see and avoid' as the airplane is a lot easier so see (larger and moving slower). I don't think that I'd have time to maneuver my airplane away from a speeding skydiver even if I saw him/her 5-6 seconds above me. Probably, I'd only mutter something non-profound like Oh S*** and hope for a good outcome for us all.:eek:
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The thing is we are traveling in two different vectors, 90 degrees to each other. Falling vertically, a skydiver , takes time to achieve a slight horizontal movement. In lets say 5 or so seconds I doubt I could "sidestep" much more than a few hundred feet by the time I saw the plane, rotated to the direction I think will make me miss it, then assume a tracking position. An RV could in 5 seconds of say a 3 G turn "sidestep" a lot more distance.
My guess is that a jumper above is about the size of a fly spec until he/she appears in the field of vision of the pilot for about 1/10 of a second as he/she skydives by. IE - I think it is very unlikely that the pilot will never see the parachutist.
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As is a plane when looking down from 2 miles up and 3-4 miles laterally. Even the largest of planes are lost in the background at those distances and angles.
I'll bet that parachutists, have when they have identified an aircraft below as in the clip, avoided aircraft by pulling the rip cord well above the aircraft - they don't have to pass by like a speeding bullet.
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If I had time, and knew jumpers were not above me, popping my chute would be my first instinct. But as you saw in that video, chutes don't open instantaly. In fact, they usualy take around 1000 feet or more to open, depending on how it was packed. On that video, I don't pick up the aircraft untill about the 5 second mark, and I'm looking for it, knowing its there. The guy has tossed out his pilot chute (pulled the ripcord) at the 6-7 second mark (see his left hand come forward to counteract his right hand reaching back for the pilot chute), but isnt under canopy untill around 10 seconds. I think it boils down to neither an aircraft or jumper, if on a colission course, are likely to see each other, and have the ability and/or time to miss each other. Only dumb luck and "its a big sky" is going to prevent colissions if both are in the same airspace at the same time. The jumpers can't move, so I feel its the aircraft that need to avoid the airspace and/or use the radios to keep tabs on the jumping activity.
And if the parachutist doesn't land back at the airport that is better than taking a chance of a collision - right?
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Trust me, there is a long list of "must happens" when skydiving...landing back at the airport is pretty far down the list :)
 
Man O Man

It's more scary now that I am a more informed about skydiving!!! Sounds really dangerous to me. One Summer I saw two skydivers buy the farm in separate incidents at Lake Elsinore - not pretty, etc. That's when I decided not to ever try it.

So how do we educate the pilot who either doesn't know about skydivers in action or who doesn't care? Do we ask the chart makers to make changes on the charts or what? How often is there an aircraft/skydiver 'midair' in the skydiving community? Or close call? I'm convinced - count me out of skydiving and I'll give you guys 5 extra miles leeway.

Thanks for the education!
 
G-force said:
... I think it boils down to neither an aircraft or jumper, if on a colission course, are likely to see each other, and have the ability and/or time to miss each other. ...)
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Best quote!

I worked with Roy Haggard and the people at Vertigo, Inc. at Lake Elsinor(sp?) during the development of a recovery system for a deep space project. Several of them were pilots and sky divers. They were very serious about flying and passionate about their jumping. I think they would agree with your observation - I certainly do. I think within this small group at least the original post has achieved as much as possible of its objective. There are a multitude of sins that lead to conflicts, no pre-flight planning, spontaneous "direct to" GPS navigation in a "paperless cockpit", VFR flight planning with de-cluttered IFR charts, etc. Regardless, the man has raised the awareness of this drop zone for VAF Forum readers that are SNF travelers and asked that they consciously plan their route to avoid the drop zone and not try to deal with it real time when they are also dealing with the stress of fitting into the fly-in arrival procedure. This seems like a reasonable request that should not be reduced to a turf war.

Bob Axsom
 
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In deference to the original intent of this thread, which I believe was an admonition that there is major skydiving going on in close proximity to SNF, I will spare my complete thoughts on this matter.
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole. Maybe those of you who are serious about this sport should begin to police yourselves in the conduct of those who are jumping, and some of the nut jobs that are flying the jump planes.
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!
 
Jetjok wrote:
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole.

OK ,Mark, I'll bite... Name three.

Jetjok wrote:
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!

Let me guess, he was "descending"... in a notamed drop zone... totally uncharacteristic behavior... <TIC>
If you were close enough to get buzzed by ANY drop zone aircraft, you were right in the middle of the operation, and might even be the star of one of those little films...
 
Dmadd said:
Jetjok wrote:
However, there are many skydiving operations that are a hazard not only to their customers (victims?), but to the GA public as a whole.

OK ,Mark, I'll bite... Name three.

Jetjok wrote:
Ask me about being buzzed by a near vertical pass of a C-182 jump plane that decided I was too close to "his" jump zone!

Let me guess, he was "descending"... in a notamed drop zone... totally uncharacteristic behavior... <TIC>
If you were close enough to get buzzed by ANY drop zone aircraft, you were right in the middle of the operation, and might even be the star of one of those little films...
Click to expand...

Come on! If you want any support for your activity this is not the right way to go about it.

Bob Axsom
 
G-Force Mike said it best... the reality is jumpers in freefall are not going to see an RV sized airplane until it's too late... And a pilot isn't going to see a skydiver until it's too late. This is a case, I believe, where "see and avoid" just isn't going to cut it. I've been held in the door by the jump pilot more than a few times for traffic below. He knows that because ATC warned him. It's just like most other things... If everybody followed a few simple rules... like pilots avoiding the area or talking to somebody if they have to transit the area and jump pilots talking on CTAF and with ATC... There'd be no problem. But when pilots fly through a DZ not talking to anybody and/or jump pilots don't announce their intentions, we have problems...

The USPA (United States Parachute Association) was pushing hard a few years back to get a skydive symbol added to the nav data that all the GPS's use. I haven't heard anything recently about it, and I don't know why it never went through. With all the glass cockpit technology we're flying around with these days, I find it hard to believe putting a little parachute symbol next to an airport on a GPS would be all that difficult. The data is there somewhere, because the paper charts have it.

I, for one, would love to see this done. With dependency on gps and glass cockpits only getting deeper, I think it's something that needs to be done.

As a side note, part of the problem even for the really well prepared pilot, is the sectionals aren't always up to date on skydiving operations. I suspect part of the problem is the red tape and part of the problem is DZO's not reporting their activity to the right people.

Dave (semi-retired jumper)
 
E. D. Eliot said:
It's more scary now that I am a more informed about skydiving!!! Sounds really dangerous to me. One Summer I saw two skydivers buy the farm in separate incidents at Lake Elsinore - not pretty, etc. That's when I decided not to ever try it.
Click to expand...

Does this mean that as soon as you see an aircraft crash you will quit flying?

I've seen jumpers killed and I've seen planes crash, neither is pretty.

Both activities require risk management.
 
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So the jumpers have to know that an RV is outside a circle of 12 mile radius? That is unrealistic and won't happen. Better that pilots stay away from drop zones, use ATC flight following, etc.
 
Bob,
Point taken and your probably right.
I'm not even a skydiver though... it's just the post I quoted seemed beyond ridiculous... unsubstantiated blanket statements there...
Those guys have as much right to be there as I do...
My apologies.

DM


Bob Axsom said:
Come on! If you want any support for your activity this is not the right way to go about it.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...
 
The Public Park Analogy

Think of all Class E airspace as a big public park that all aviation users are allowed to play in.

You have every legal right to use every square inch of that park.

Now think of the DZ as a ball field on a small area of that park.

The parachute symbol on the chart or NOTAM basically means; "caution ball game may be in progress".

Think of ATC as the umpire.

If you are jogging around the park and don't see or heed the sign and don't ask the umpire if it's clear and you run right onto the field during a big play. Several things may happen:

You may get clocked by a fastball or run into a base runner.

Hopefully the umpire, pitcher or a player sees you in time and is able to stop play while you make your way through the ball field, hopefully you don't stop in the middle of the field and do calisthenics [aerobatics or turns around a point].

Everyone waits for you to clear the field [while rolling their eyes] so play can resume. If you are an A*#hole, you point out that you have every right to use the ball field portion of the park during the game, which is true.

Now consider those pilots who fly through a DZ as those park users who jog through the ball field either knowingly or unknowingly during a game.

They have every right to be on that ball field but courtesy and prudence would suggest they go around or ask the umpire if it's safe to cut through.

Their is probably always going to be somebody who runs onto the field during a game. Don't be that guy.
 
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Regardless of where you stand,,,

I think we can all admit this topic needs to be discussed much further in flight training materials. I just got my ticket about 16 months ago and the only thing that was ever discussed was "be careful in there there could be skydivers." having read this post and really thought about the possibilities of seeing a skydiver or being tuned into a local CTAF if im flying over at 5 k feet is slim. being careful "in there" is useless, more like dont go there unless,,,
At a minimum I would have like to have been taught what heights they drop from? Can I always ask control for a guarantee that they are or aren't jumping?

I am from more a rural area where skydiving in those marked spots was very rare. So I guess in our area it wasnt a huge issue that instructors worried about.
For the safety of both sports, I am disapointed in the lack of advice that i didnt receive in Jeppesen, and king materials.

I would like to thank everyone for their input I really feel better off for reading this thread.
 
Dmadd said:
Bob,
Point taken and your probably right.
I'm not even a skydiver though... it's just the post I quoted seemed beyond ridiculous... unsubstantiated blanket statements there...
Those guys have as much right to be there as I do...
My apologies.

DM
Click to expand...

Well, Mr. DM...Whatever your real name may be, I suppose that you are referring to me in your above posting. I can answer all your questions if you wish to continue this debate on this forum. However, why don't you PM me with your actual name and a phone number and I will be willing to hash this out in private.

I might suggest that you do some homework so as to be prepared prior to our conversation as it will go much better. You can see from my signature where I reside, and you can spend some time doing research on Skydiving operations that are within a 35 mi radius.

BTW, I have done one tandem jump at a fairly local operation a few years ago. Totally safe and professional operation, and I would do it again or fly jump planes for them if the opportunity presented itself.

The incident with the 182 took place in 1979. I was on my student XC, and my route took me fairly close to an airport where skydiving operations were ongoing. I was in contact with the jump plane, and they were fully aware that I was in the area as they had me in sight, and that I was a student pilot. BTW..I was outside of the jump zone, but I guess due to strong winds aloft (6-9K) they wanted to be more up wind for their operations...Who really knows?
Descending in the jump zone?? OK...You tell me. What is the pitch attitude of a normal descent in a 182? I can tell you that there was a large differential between the cruise pitch attitude of my 150 and the "descending" pitch attitude of the 182 when he came from above and behind, through my altitude. My adjective for that pilot was accurate then, and is still accurate 31 years and 20K+ hours later!
Anyway, as I have attempted to make clear to you. It is not my intent to impugn skydiving operations as a whole, but as with all aspects of aviation, there are some bad apples. God knows, as I was an active pilot of hot air balloons for about 10 years, and I saw some stuff that really made me shake my head.
I look forward to hearing from you.
 
Dmadd said:
PM and phone number sent.
33 years and 20K+ hours as well.
Relax, we will play nice... ;-)
Click to expand...

Dmadd and I have PM'ed, and I look forward to speaking to a fellow RVer and aviator.
It appears that my original message may have had a connotation that my position is that ALL skydiving operations are less than professional and safe. Far from it! As I said in my second post, I have a grand total of one jump and I would have not done it if I did not feel that the operation was safe! The finger nail scratches on the door frame may indicate otherwise!
Now back to wishing that the volcano in Iceland would have waited another week until I was home!
 
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I think this pretty much summes it up.
But having flown for skydive opperations and flown around and through many other drop zones I would not bet my life that they follow the rules.

105.5 General.
No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface.
 
Here in Italy I fly from Salerno airport where there is an active skidivers school and they use the airport as landing surface. Everytime the skidivers lunch, the ATZ is closed to other traffic from 1 minute before the launch to the moment the last skydiver touch the ground and all aircraft have to wait outside the ATZ for the needed 12-15 minutes, aircarfts on the ground cannot start their engines for the same period. It's absolutely annoing, but I think everyone has the right to use the airspace in total security.

I remember once a little accident: I still was a student pilot and was practicing landing with my instructor; there was a misunderstood between the control tower and the skidiver plane pilot and they launched while I was performing touch'n'go on the runway... while i was adding power for take off after a touch and go, I saw a lot of skidivers comin down on the side of the runway.. my instructor immediatelly shutted off the engine to stop the prop and aborted the take off. I can't imagine what could happen if someone came too close to us...
 
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