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Help please, Titan 0360-A1A

stringbender

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Has anyone ever experienced their engine "cut-out" in flight momentarily. I'm not talking about a mag cutting out, because you have the other mag.

Something is removing the Air, or Spark on both, or fuel.

Question?
Is it possible to experience a vapor lock or a heated fuel line that creates bubbles in the fuel going through the insulated fuel line to cause an engine to cut out.
A Carburated engine, 0360-A1A?

Even though my fuel lines have the insulation around them possibly it is experiencing high heat.
My temps on take off are hot. over 400.

I am planning on installing louvers, and I have addressed the baffling rubber.
 
Is it during climb, cruise, decent?

I had an intake leak that would cause a hiccup as you pulled the throttle back on downwind.
 
Possible sticking exhaust valve

I had this happen on my Titan IO-360. Turned out to be a sticking exhaust valve on one cylinder. May not be the problem with yours but worth checking. Do you download all your data to savvy?
 
Has anyone ever experienced their engine "cut-out" in flight momentarily. I'm not talking about a mag cutting out, because you have the other mag.

Something is removing the Air, or Spark on both, or fuel.

Question?
Is it possible to experience a vapor lock or a heated fuel line that creates bubbles in the fuel going through the insulated fuel line to cause an engine to cut out.
A Carburated engine, 0360-A1A?

Even though my fuel lines have the insulation around them possibly it is experiencing high heat.
My temps on take off are hot. over 400.

I am planning on installing louvers, and I have addressed the baffling rubber.
I had exactly this two days ago, coincidentally with an ECI OX-340S.

I recalibrated my AoA sensor and shortly after the stall sequence, the engine went through several momentary power interruptions, pig-rootin and carrying on, not going above 1800-2000RPM etc.. Changing tanks & descending solved it (cooled everything off, though I didn't realise it at the time) and I replicated it on the ground yesterday. Same tank, same fuel, everything was fine until it got hot, then exactly the same as in flight, surging, etc, but I could recover the RPM by using the Rotec diaphragm override button that dumps raw fuel into the venturi.

I have a Rotec TBI that has proven susceptible to vapour lock several times on the ground previously, but I've never had it happen in flight before. I've put it down to running 98RON Mogas which I think may have been a winter blend here, while we're coming into Spring.

Here's the datalog from my ground run. Same tank, same fuel, no worries early in the piece, but as things heat up, she gets unhappy. Then look at the fuel pressure increase by itself (to over 20PSI) after I shutdown to add a bit more fuel, and the inability to get a smooth restart afterwards.
51441494096_b125a4f0c5_c.jpg


And here's the datalog from the incident flight. Normal takeoff, normal climb, the AoA stall sequence & recovery in the middle of the graph, then around the 00:25" mark, around a 300RPM drop, with several other power fluctuations following.
51441756073_f700f59433_c.jpg
 
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I had exactly this two days ago, coincidentally with an ECI OX-340S.

I have a Rotec TBI that has proven susceptible to vapour lock several times on the ground previously, but I've never had it happen in flight before. I've put it down to running 98RON Mogas which I think may have been a winter blend here, while we're coming into Spring.

Rotec will get heat soaked in cruise and do exactly what you're describing. I machined a spacer out of FR4 fiberglass .250" thick between the Rotec and the sump and that solved the problem.
 
I had this very thing happen to a Titan IO-360. Tuned out to be the Titan cylinder coating coming off and going through the bottom end. It was a short hickup in flight for a few seconds and then the engine re-lit and rand seemingly normal. Oil consumption went up so we did a compression check and had air leaking out of the crankcase breather. Pulled #1 and it was a mess.

These cylinders were subject to an FAA AD and all the cylinder assemblies on type certificated airframes had to be changed after so many hours and Titan provided replacement cylinders. But not for experimental aircraft. Titan would take them back and re-work them for experimental engines. This process was no allowed per the FAA but Titan took the fact that these cylinder assemblies were installed on aircraft with special airworthiness certificates were not subject to the provisions of the AD. My set of cylinders were some of the ones Titan re-worked and sent back. I understand high CHTs can exasperate this failure and I did see some high CHTs on a few climb outs on a few flights prior to the few-second flameout.

Anyway, do a compression check to see if one cylinder has a leak at the exhaust or breather. If you have access to one of those cameras that will fit through the sparkplug holes take a look at your cylinder walls for the Titan nickle coating sluffing off. Here are some photos of the failed Titan cylinders. Both cylinder wall and piston.
 

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My good friend and hangar mate had a similar cough in his RV-8 with a Superior Millennium engine. We did a compression check and had a leak from the exhaust on #3. There was a bent push rod caused by a stuck valve.

So it will probably pay to do a compression check ASAP.
 
I did the compression check, the engine has less than 200 hrs since new, and it has great compression, producing amazing power especially at takeoff, 29'' mp.
compressions were 78 to 79 on all 4 cylinders.

I believe the cowling rubber that meets the inlet, theres a short section, it didn't look right to me but the prior owner installed the cowling, I asked about it and thats the way it stayed until my last flight, which with some speed tape was cooler.
Early am flights with high 70's to low 80's CHT's would climb up to 400 plus or minus 5.
Once the OAT got into the 90's the CHT's on Take Off higher.
One Take Off in 101 degree and 1200' asl, 429.

I flew 7 flights and only noticed a few times a very very brief cut out. But enough for me to take notice. Possibly it got more successively. Temps above describe those 7 flights.

Then a quick early am flight of 12 minutes and low CHT of 385 on Take Off, this was off of a damp grass runway too, possibly moist cool air. No intermittent cut out.

Then a take off at gross weight, mid am, paved strip, and full throttle take off, engine pulling strongly, 29'' mp, climb out at 105 and temps raised to 422 quickly, lowered nose and she starts bumping, cutting out, I say bumping because its quite alarming the sound, you can feel it through the floor boards. Its not one mag cutting out, because the other picks it up, this is an intermittent cut out, ever so slightly but on this one take off it happened around 700' (airport elev 25') and when it came on it bumped 8 times in short period of 10 seconds approx, it slowed down with the reduction of throttle MP, and I am thinking its the rapid build up of heat.

I am considering several issues.
I checked for clogged fuel vent (there open)
shorted ignition switch? checked connections, one was not tight all the way, have not thoroughly checked with continuity yet.
Fuel lines have fire sleeve, and the fuel flow transmitter has additional fire retardant wrap.

I do remember Jan Bussell (rip) that he routed his fuel line in his 0360 (possibly fuel injected) too close to the exhaust and it vapor locked and he lost all power on short final and crash landed the airplane, replace gear and back in the air.

So vapor lock is something I have seen on lycoming injected engines like at start.
But this engine is carburated. MA4SPA.
I have thought possibly I need more fuel for take off for extra cooling.
Bigger engine in a cowl originally designed for 0320.

I do have an endoscope and will check the cylinder walls.
I was unaware of the cylinder coating issue and AD with the Titan engines. I wonder what serial numbers were effected.
If anyone has a quick reference please pass it on. That sounds serious.

I just bought this airplane.
I could use some help!
 
Here is a pic of the cowl inlet baffle rubber.

I believe the rubber needs to go on the other side of the fiberglass ramp. I think the rubber could flap down in the incoming air and cause a bypass of air over the cylinders.

I later moved the rubber to the other side and installed speed tape over the cut out, small open area in the cowl right hand side, about the size of a dime and the CHT's were cooler.
Ex: normal cruise 385, now 377. (just one flight however, attempting to reduce heat and hopefully the recent momentary engine cut out in flight).
 

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I agree that those intakes look a lot like a -7, and yes the seals should be laying down behind the FG intake. Lots of air moves through there and that rubber will bend with the wind, probably blocking some airflow. Although not visible in the photo, you should also have seals attached to the lower cowl FG at the trailing edge of the lower inlet lip. It should overlap on top of the aluminum piece just aft of the inlet. Take a look at the plans for your aircraft.

Regarding your other issue with the engine, I would consider that assembly unfit for flight until you get the source of the problem figured out. So far it's been intermittent and self correcting, but I wouldn't risk my airframe (or my neck) hoping it will improve with better cooling.

You are operating in some extreme temps, and even up here in the cool NW, CHT's in my -7 will climb if I don't remedy the situation with airspeed and mixture.

My most recent improvement to cooling was from extending the "eyebrows" inboard to make for a smooth transition for the cowl seals around the forward part of the cowl just aft of the flywheel and over the top of the forward cowl plate.

Also, you say you have an endoscope. Turn the light up and inspect all of the seals and note any gaps you see by taking a look from each inlet. All the way around. You will likely be able to correlate any place where the seal doesn't lay down tight with missing chaffing on that section of seal and cowl. The small leaks I found made a big difference in my CHT' all around.

Good luck and be careful out there!

Cheers
 
but this engine is carburated. MA4SPA.

Wrong carb for a 360??? Should be MA4-5 on a 360.

The cylinder wall problems/cyl AD's were on older engines made and sold by ECI, the new 'Titan' (now Continental) engines don't have that issue that I'm aware of.
 
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Regarding your other issue with the engine, I would consider that assembly unfit for flight until you get the source of the problem figured out.

+1 Your engine is complaining...and it might be trying to tell you something important. I wouldn't ignore the complaints and keep flying.
 
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Carb Float

Just throwing this out there, Any chance this is a sinking float issue??? Seams to come on after climbing&descending or general maneuvering.
 
Like Walt says, the MA4SPA is for the O-320. The O-360 uses MA4-5. The -5 is a larger carb.
 
Correction, it is a ma4-5 carburetor.

I will post some picks
Later.

Today I worked on the newly acquired a/c, and I believe I have identified the main fuel line from the fuel flow turbine to the appears to have received heat from the exhaust below it.
The adell clamp appeared to have gotten hot attached to the fuel line leading into the carb, MA4_5.

Question?

Can I install a heat guard material on the exhaust pipe?
something like a wrap?
Asbestos or fiberglass wrap?

What about over the fuel lines?

Doug
 
Yes mine has the added heat shield.

I will post pictures shortly.

However, my question was this: can I wrap the exhaust pipe with a heat shielding wrap, there are similar wraps that promote heat reduction of up to 50% heat.

What is the detriment of installing this material?

I’m assuming is is non flammable.
 
Just throwing this out there, Any chance this is a sinking float issue??? Seams to come on after climbing&descending or general maneuvering.

This engine intermittent cutting out feels like a very quick “bump’’.
It happened twice during the prebuyer acceptance flight at level flightOr possibly in a 30 degree banking turn.

However it didn’t repeat during any other phase of flight.

The next time was two flights later in cruise, possibly two to 6 very quick intermittent and random cutouts, which feels like a bump and can be felt through the floor, airframe.

After refueling it occurred on takeoff and height cht, approximately 415.

The next leg was oat 101, 1200’ asl, held 30 minutes from takeoff and 429 cht and several bumps, possibly 5.

The next two legs were cooler OAT and the a/c performance was smooth.

9:00 am take off, about 89 degrees OAT, asphalt runway, full power climbing at 105 mph at 500’ high cht 422, two people, max t/o wt., and thru 700’ it followed with 6 bumps in about 10 seconds, which was followed by reducing mp, and stay in the pattern and landing.

Mag check followed. Light speed plasma 3 (left), slick (on right).

Repeat takeoff with a reduction of mp, and climb at higher a/s 140, and felt several bumps but seemed not as bad.
Again stay in pattern, return to land.

Call an A&P, he suggests removing the front metal obstructing the fins in the inlet (c/w), replace spark plug (c/w on slick), Klaus from light speed asked how the left mag sounded, it sounds great, suggested don’t remove plugs (Dinso).
Mechanic suggested providing blast tube for slick mag, (c/w), also pull carb hose off and check the filter screen (c/w no sediment or rubber particles).

I re-routed the inlet cowling baffle rubber and speed tapped the open areas.

Take off single pilot, reduced power climb, circle over field, take-off on different tank.

Some bumps felt but mostly smooth to proceed to altitude, mag check at altitude, all good and smooth, short flight to hangar where maintenance would proceed and is continuing.

So far the forum responses have been very interesting.
Of course the high CHT’s are a main focus.
One said stuck exhaust valve, which I find quite interesting.
However this engine is the best sounding and easiest engine to start even in heat soaked conditions.
I’ve never witnessed an easier starting engine.
Question? Is that because of the light speed?
So from what I have heard about on stuck exhaust valve’s it is a morning sickness common occurrence.
Also we checked all egt’s, CHT’s and they are consistent.


Another said check for cylinder wall coatings deterioration. There is a mirror like finish on mine and still the RMS cross hatching. No defects noted.
I used an inexpensive endescope, I -lan on using a bore scope soon to check condition of exhaust valve stem.

It appears the fuel line from the flow meter to carburetor appears the black adel clamps got hot.
Yes there is a heat sink on the exhaust below it.
I was able to re-route the line away by 1& 1/2 inches, so I’m hopeful this will help.
Question I have: can these bumps be from fuel boiling in the fuel line?

Another fact to consider.
In flight if I pull the throttle back in the descending phase of flight, and the engine back fires.
Question: is this a result of a difference of the two mags.
I have checked the timing of the slick, it is 25 BTDC.

Could the light speed be the culprit?
Or the lightspeed’s pressure sensor?

An advanced timing, sensor fail, causes higher CHT’s, possible causing backfire? ( fails in the full advanced position ).

I have not checked the timing of the light speed yet.

What magneto combination is best suited for these a/c?

I’m trying to maneuver through this troubleshooting phase with my mechanical sense, with the help of A&P mechanic’s, IA’s, factory reps, and VAN’s experienced operators (pilots, mechanics, engineers).

Hopefully I can resolve this shortly, however challenging at present.
Thank you for your responses.
 
Backfires...
Had something similar. But wasn't actually backfire (sorta hard to happen when running), rather it was "after fires" (my name), where the mixture goes uncombusted into the exhaust and gets ignited there.

Issue in my case was the plugs on the lightspeed wore out faster than expected - one gap quite large, combined with high altitude, combined with some lead build up in my conventional plug.
 
This engine intermittent cutting out feels like a very quick “bump’’.
It happened twice during the prebuyer acceptance flight at level flightOr possibly in a 30 degree banking turn.

However it didn’t repeat during any other phase of flight.

The next time was two flights later in cruise, possibly two to 6 very quick intermittent and random cutouts, which feels like a bump and can be felt through the floor, airframe.

After refueling it occurred on takeoff and height cht, approximately 415.

The next leg was oat 101, 1200’ asl, held 30 minutes from takeoff and 429 cht and several bumps, possibly 5.

The next two legs were cooler OAT and the a/c performance was smooth.

9:00 am take off, about 89 degrees OAT, asphalt runway, full power climbing at 105 mph at 500’ high cht 422, two people, max t/o wt., and thru 700’ it followed with 6 bumps in about 10 seconds, which was followed by reducing mp, and stay in the pattern and landing.

Mag check followed. Light speed plasma 3 (left), slick (on right).

Repeat takeoff with a reduction of mp, and climb at higher a/s 140, and felt several bumps but seemed not as bad.
Again stay in pattern, return to land.

Call an A&P, he suggests removing the front metal obstructing the fins in the inlet (c/w), replace spark plug (c/w on slick), Klaus from light speed asked how the left mag sounded, it sounds great, suggested don’t remove plugs (Dinso).
Mechanic suggested providing blast tube for slick mag, (c/w), also pull carb hose off and check the filter screen (c/w no sediment or rubber particles).

I re-routed the inlet cowling baffle rubber and speed tapped the open areas.

Take off single pilot, reduced power climb, circle over field, take-off on different tank.

Some bumps felt but mostly smooth to proceed to altitude, mag check at altitude, all good and smooth, short flight to hangar where maintenance would proceed and is continuing.

So far the forum responses have been very interesting.
Of course the high CHT’s are a main focus.
One said stuck exhaust valve, which I find quite interesting.
However this engine is the best sounding and easiest engine to start even in heat soaked conditions.
I’ve never witnessed an easier starting engine.
Question? Is that because of the light speed?
So from what I have heard about on stuck exhaust valve’s it is a morning sickness common occurrence.
Also we checked all egt’s, CHT’s and they are consistent.


Another said check for cylinder wall coatings deterioration. There is a mirror like finish on mine and still the RMS cross hatching. No defects noted.
I used an inexpensive endescope, I -lan on using a bore scope soon to check condition of exhaust valve stem.

It appears the fuel line from the flow meter to carburetor appears the black adel clamps got hot.
Yes there is a heat sink on the exhaust below it.
I was able to re-route the line away by 1& 1/2 inches, so I’m hopeful this will help.
Question I have: can these bumps be from fuel boiling in the fuel line?

Another fact to consider.
In flight if I pull the throttle back in the descending phase of flight, and the engine back fires.
Question: is this a result of a difference of the two mags.
I have checked the timing of the slick, it is 25 BTDC.

Could the light speed be the culprit?
Or the lightspeed’s pressure sensor?

An advanced timing, sensor fail, causes higher CHT’s, possible causing backfire? ( fails in the full advanced position ).

I have not checked the timing of the light speed yet.

What magneto combination is best suited for these a/c?

I’m trying to maneuver through this troubleshooting phase with my mechanical sense, with the help of A&P mechanic’s, IA’s, factory reps, and VAN’s experienced operators (pilots, mechanics, engineers).

Hopefully I can resolve this shortly, however challenging at present.
Thank you for your responses.

Vapor lock should be seen at take off or in the climb far more often than in cruise, as this is where cooling air flow is the worst. CHTs at 430 should not, in and of themselves be causing misfires or cut outs, though possibly a symptom a different issue causing your problems, such as timing too advanced. Sticking valves should have consistent poor running for 5 to 10 minutes then get better. Sticking valves rarely create intermittent misses later in the flight. They tend to stick for several minutes when cold and release when hot. Otherwise they tend to stick permanently and cause a bent pushrod, followed by very consistent under performance.

Need to determine if explosions are backfires or afterfires, Later is far more likely and they occur either when both plugs don't fire intermitently (or ignition too advanced or too retarded) or the mixture is too rich or too lean to ignite. I would be looking at ignition health and possibly a leaking needle / seat in the carb. Afterfires and misses that occur on deceleration are usually air fuel mixture issues or leaking exhaust flanges, though could also occur from serious ignition timing problems that cause intermittent misses. Afterfires are a common side effect to misses that are short in duration.

One idea is to run at cruise on just one ignition then the other for an extended period of time. Keep doing it until you can confirm the problem or lack of problem on each individual ignition. This can help identify if one of the ignition systems has an issue and is causing the problem. Also verify timing on LS ignition, as well as proper operation of it's MAP sensor. One guess is that the LS ignition is too far advanced or the map sensor hose is blocked.

Larry
 
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Could the fuel be boiling in the line, causing a misfire?
Here is proof that the fuel line to the carburetor is heating up, notice the adel clamp, the black is transferring onto the hose.

I was able to re route the line on the other side of one of the engine mount tubes and this gained me some needed space 1'' to 1.5''.

Question? could this heat cause my engine to intermittent misfire on take-off with high CHT, heat in the cowling?

Question? Can I wrap my exhaust to reduce the temps? Fire proof wrap.
 

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"Afterfires", thats a new one, and in the case of my a/c, they can be avoided if I am careful bringing the throttle back slowly.
 
Could the fuel be boiling in the line, causing a misfire?
Here is proof that the fuel line to the carburetor is heating up, notice the adel clamp, the black is transferring onto the hose.

I was able to re route the line on the other side of one of the engine mount tubes and this gained me some needed space 1'' to 1.5''.

Question? could this heat cause my engine to intermittent misfire on take-off with high CHT, heat in the cowling?

Question? Can I wrap my exhaust to reduce the temps? Fire proof wrap.

If it were only take off that you got the misfires, then yes excess heat could be causing fuel heat issues with extra lean or extra rich depending upon vapor lock in the pump vs boiling fuel in the carb bowl. If you get the same misfires in cruise, then quite unlikely.

The discoloration from the rubber clamp is NOT proof that hot fuel is your problem.

While it is somewhat common to have issues with fuel getting too hot in T/O or climb it is quite rare to have that problem when cruising at 160 KTAS.

Larry
 
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I have installed the Mooney mod, and installed the bigger Carburator jet.

I no longer have any cutouts .

My CHT’s at full power is reduced to 366, and may climb to 390 in the climb, most of the time it’s 385 in climb now.

The extra fuel cooling is working.
Thanks everyone for helping me through this process, it is very much appreciated.

Regards

Doug Bent
Stuart, FL
 
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