How does this help the current topic and those of us with laser cut parts now?
Van's Air Force
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Dimple cracking caused by laser cut holes
- Thread starter gotyoke
- Start date
- Status
How does this help the current topic and those of us with laser cut parts now?
JoeRuscito
Member
Greg, would love a response here. Thanks in advance for the time.
FYI this is the RV-14A R-00902-1 (laser cut part) which was reamed, deburred; dimpled, reamed again (at an angle to get small cracks on the laser entry/exit edge) and filed on some very small cracks I could see. A lot of work and would be per new chapter 5 guidance. After riveting, more cracks appeared. I'm waiting on support to give me guidance at this point, as over half appear to have a small defect.
Brantel
Well Known Member
I did not remember noticing any of this issue with the laser cut parts I received with my tailcone kit but as I am inventorying my wing kit I noticed two stacks of ribs that have these issues.
So I realized that my ribs were made in late December of last year so likely this issue has been addressed.
Will follow up with the support team tomorrow.
Personally I am not concerned with these ribs. I deburr/chamfer all holes anyway even the full sized ones and this will likely clean these right up.
So I realized that my ribs were made in late December of last year so likely this issue has been addressed.
Will follow up with the support team tomorrow.
Personally I am not concerned with these ribs. I deburr/chamfer all holes anyway even the full sized ones and this will likely clean these right up.
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JoeRuscito
Member
This is precisely my concern. Let us know what Van’s suggests.
Trial on repair of rudder spar
While waiting for support, I figured I'd try repairing the rudder spar to see how easy/hard it was. So far I've finished one side of the rivets I could access (47 out of 50, top 3 would take more effort and at this point not worth it in my opinion).
Set up, #42 drill with stop, punch, mini cutters for rivet removal, flashlight to see better, then small round file, and angle grinder with fine pad. Took out rivet, filed the crack, hit with fine pad to ensure smooth, and riveted again. Took some time, but feel better about the holes now. I will say it didn't take much of the file, just a few swipes was all it took. Two hours to get one side done, so about 2-3 min per repair rivet. Hopefully this is helpful to anyone that has a crack.
Set up
Before
After
While waiting for support, I figured I'd try repairing the rudder spar to see how easy/hard it was. So far I've finished one side of the rivets I could access (47 out of 50, top 3 would take more effort and at this point not worth it in my opinion).
Set up, #42 drill with stop, punch, mini cutters for rivet removal, flashlight to see better, then small round file, and angle grinder with fine pad. Took out rivet, filed the crack, hit with fine pad to ensure smooth, and riveted again. Took some time, but feel better about the holes now. I will say it didn't take much of the file, just a few swipes was all it took. Two hours to get one side done, so about 2-3 min per repair rivet. Hopefully this is helpful to anyone that has a crack.
Set up
Before
After
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Another trial repair on emp j-stiffeners
FYI I also got the emp down and had a closer look, same issues on the j-stiffeners. However, I tried doing an in place file vs drilling out. The notch is so small and on the very tip edge, just a few strokes with the file and it's gone. I think it looks good, but awaiting Van's response on this method of repair. I hope it's ok, as those are quite a few more rivets to drill out.
FYI I also got the emp down and had a closer look, same issues on the j-stiffeners. However, I tried doing an in place file vs drilling out. The notch is so small and on the very tip edge, just a few strokes with the file and it's gone. I think it looks good, but awaiting Van's response on this method of repair. I hope it's ok, as those are quite a few more rivets to drill out.
Marc Bourget
Well Known Member
Anyone with a notch that they feel they can easily resolve with a tool maker's file, etc. The irregular shape of the hole, IMHO, is still a form of stress concentration.
I suggest they consider annealing the rivets, on site, in batches of 25-50, small enough not to have to worry about storing them in dry ice.
Note: only attempt on site rivet annealing with clear anodized rivets.
This takes an apparatus with temp controls +/- a few degrees in the vicinity of 900-1000 degs.
Freshly Annealed rivets form with 3-4 "plups" of the rivet gun at 40 psi.
Minimal radial swelling of the rivet shank and less stress put into the skins/ribs.
FWIW
I suggest they consider annealing the rivets, on site, in batches of 25-50, small enough not to have to worry about storing them in dry ice.
Note: only attempt on site rivet annealing with clear anodized rivets.
This takes an apparatus with temp controls +/- a few degrees in the vicinity of 900-1000 degs.
Freshly Annealed rivets form with 3-4 "plups" of the rivet gun at 40 psi.
Minimal radial swelling of the rivet shank and less stress put into the skins/ribs.
FWIW
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Brantel
Well Known Member
Nothing wrong with the “full sized” punched holes. The issue is with these laser cut parts that appear to have improper tool paths in the G-Code.
I have many laser cut parts without this issue and some that have it. That tells me that it can be done correctly.
Ladies and Gents, We are going to be having some serious airframe cracking issues down the road with these Covid era builds. I have to say I am not impressed with the sub-standard parts manufacturing process Vans has implemented to try to keep up with the orders they took. The laser cutting in itself is a very good method, just implemented incorrectly.
I think very highly of Vans Aircraft as a whole but someone should have put a hold on taking orders instead of scrambling to play catch-up and ultimately delivering garbage parts. I’m not sure how I’m going to feel when my 300k investment slowly starts trying to fall apart, and I don’t think this comment as being all too sarcastic.
Documentation is your friend and about all we can do at this point I guess?! Only time will tell how this plays out down the road.
I think very highly of Vans Aircraft as a whole but someone should have put a hold on taking orders instead of scrambling to play catch-up and ultimately delivering garbage parts. I’m not sure how I’m going to feel when my 300k investment slowly starts trying to fall apart, and I don’t think this comment as being all too sarcastic.
Documentation is your friend and about all we can do at this point I guess?! Only time will tell how this plays out down the road.
This sucks ! I feel for all you guys who are dealing with this.
The lack of response from Vans is shocking, especially after a promised update months ago in regards the integration of LC parts / holes. I really hope Vans will step up the the plate on this issue. Darn ! I finally have the time an means to build but this is a non starter. Until resolved, I have postponed my " exposure " to nothing beyond the practice kits. I suspect others who are informed are/will do the same.
Brantel
Well Known Member
I was told that the issue was isolated to one of the suppliers of the laser cut parts and that it has been resolved.
My parts with this issue were made before Christmas. I have some laser cut parts that do not have this issue.
Since most of the holes on the 12 are not dimpled and use pulled rivets, I was told to build on and use the parts I was provided.
I don't know enough to have an opinion on this issue but I will say that production airplanes from the 70s and 80s were hardly manufactured without imperfections. I was President of The Twin Cessna Flyer owners group (www.twincessna.org) for about a dozen years. During that time Cessna came out with its Supplemental Inspection Documents which require significant disassembly and inspection of the turboprops everywhere and the piston twins overseas and on Part 135 ops. More manufacturing defects were found than problems due to aging (which was the goal of the program). We even found holes in wing spars where they weren't supposed to be.
My only point is that a well designed and engineered airplane can tolerate some manufacturing imperfections. Are RVs "well-designed and engineered"? To date they have been. As I said, I don't know enough to comment on the current situation. I've ordered all my RV-14 QB kits with the first one to arrive in August. You can bet I"ll be inspecting it carefully for laser cut imperfections.
My only point is that a well designed and engineered airplane can tolerate some manufacturing imperfections. Are RVs "well-designed and engineered"? To date they have been. As I said, I don't know enough to comment on the current situation. I've ordered all my RV-14 QB kits with the first one to arrive in August. You can bet I"ll be inspecting it carefully for laser cut imperfections.
If this issue is limited to a specific vendor Vans should determine which kits these parts went into and notify the individual builders of those kits if they have that info. Not sure they track parts like this or know what vendors' parts went into which kits they shipped
SB kits are a pain, but at least can be inspected. Vans really needs to address the QB question. I'm expecting my QB wings and fuse sometime in the next several months and am probably right in the middle of this mess.
This probably warrants a service bulletin and definitely a full update at Oshkosh next month.
SB kits are a pain, but at least can be inspected. Vans really needs to address the QB question. I'm expecting my QB wings and fuse sometime in the next several months and am probably right in the middle of this mess.
This probably warrants a service bulletin and definitely a full update at Oshkosh next month.
JoeRuscito
Member
Burt, I'm in the same boat. Been back and forth on canceling my entire order (all kits were ordered at the same time). Two quick builds on the way. I would really appreciate some reassurance from the factory.
First it should be noted that the cracking is a problem for dimpled holes, worse (in my experience) in thicker materials or those that are bigger than #30. Holes that are not dimpled can probably just be cleaned up to remove the notch, and no worries.
For the dimpled holes, there's two concerns with just going up a size:
1. Edge distance: rivet centers must be at least a minimum distance (based on rivet diameter) from edges or you have an entirely different kind of metal stress problem. Since the problem is likely to occur with things like angles and rib flanges, there's not a lot of edge distance to work with.
2. The worst cases are holes #30 and larger. To upsize those you're looking at AD5 rivets...monsters. Some dimpled holes are for screws, so going up a size doesn't really make sense.
I'm hopeful Van's will come out with some additional general guidance here soonish. I'm personally putting on hold any steps involving laser cut holes and dimples until we hear more. Fortunately, I have other sections I can work on in the meantime.
For those of us with kits on order, as I re-read Greg Hughes response earlier in this thread he states they are carefully inspecting everything that is shipping out so that if there are any imperfections, they will not be beyond acceptable limits.
I'm new to the Vans world but based on everything I've read, I believe they will do the right thing. They are probably just getting their act together logistically before they announce anything.
Hi everyone,
First of all, we want to assure you that we’re reviewing all reports from customers regarding parts where cracks have formed while dimpling or riveting laser-cut parts. As a result of these reports, our engineering team is conducting additional tests to further validate the results from our previous testing. Given that these evaluations are still underway, know that we will communicate further when updated information is available.
We’re committed to providing you with a high-quality product. One fundamental aspect of “Total Performance” at Van’s is our commitment to quality and your confidence. As has always been the case, we will replace parts that people are not confident in. If you have parts with visible issues, please email [email protected] with photos and part numbers. We understand that there are some people who have already submitted information and have not heard back from us directly - Know that we have received your feedback. Our energy has been primarily focused on collecting information, analysis, and test validation.
As we continue evaluation and collect more data, we will update you here with our findings. Our next update here will come on or before Wednesday. We appreciate and value your input and patience as we complete this review.
Again, if you need to send us information about an issue, please use [email protected] for that purpose. We appreciate your help.
First of all, we want to assure you that we’re reviewing all reports from customers regarding parts where cracks have formed while dimpling or riveting laser-cut parts. As a result of these reports, our engineering team is conducting additional tests to further validate the results from our previous testing. Given that these evaluations are still underway, know that we will communicate further when updated information is available.
We’re committed to providing you with a high-quality product. One fundamental aspect of “Total Performance” at Van’s is our commitment to quality and your confidence. As has always been the case, we will replace parts that people are not confident in. If you have parts with visible issues, please email [email protected] with photos and part numbers. We understand that there are some people who have already submitted information and have not heard back from us directly - Know that we have received your feedback. Our energy has been primarily focused on collecting information, analysis, and test validation.
As we continue evaluation and collect more data, we will update you here with our findings. Our next update here will come on or before Wednesday. We appreciate and value your input and patience as we complete this review.
Again, if you need to send us information about an issue, please use [email protected] for that purpose. We appreciate your help.
Got my fuse kit.. saw a bunch of the laser cut holes.. was a bit displeased but figured vans didn't totally screw up.. still skeptical, looked up what to do and added 'hole cleanup' as part of the deburring prep of all pieces in the kit.
I'm in section 26 now, dimpled the pieces that attach to the bottom skin, only a couple of holes seemed to exhibit cracks so I cleaned them up again.. fine seems ok, whatever..
Upon riveting the rear gear brace, baggage bulkhead, and seat ribs to the bottom skin, I went back to inspect and 20% of the rivets set caused cracks to form in the laser cut dimpled pieces, and this is AFTER many hours were spent to follow the guidance to clean up the holes with a needle file..
How is a 20% defect rate OK? I get that a dimple can be cracked up to a certain amount and it is OK, but how many dimples can be cracked up to that limit before the overall structure should be questioned? This is absolutely not cool.
Emailing vans tonight with example pictures but not really expecting anything, and even if replacements are offered, am I going to have to build my whole fuse kit, inspect each part as I go and then dis-assemble, email support, and get a new part to replace the **** they should not have shipped in the first place?? come on.
I'm in section 26 now, dimpled the pieces that attach to the bottom skin, only a couple of holes seemed to exhibit cracks so I cleaned them up again.. fine seems ok, whatever..
Upon riveting the rear gear brace, baggage bulkhead, and seat ribs to the bottom skin, I went back to inspect and 20% of the rivets set caused cracks to form in the laser cut dimpled pieces, and this is AFTER many hours were spent to follow the guidance to clean up the holes with a needle file..
How is a 20% defect rate OK? I get that a dimple can be cracked up to a certain amount and it is OK, but how many dimples can be cracked up to that limit before the overall structure should be questioned? This is absolutely not cool.
Emailing vans tonight with example pictures but not really expecting anything, and even if replacements are offered, am I going to have to build my whole fuse kit, inspect each part as I go and then dis-assemble, email support, and get a new part to replace the **** they should not have shipped in the first place?? come on.
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Brantel
Well Known Member
Eager to see what update we get today as promised. Since I am building a 12, there will be no dimples in most of the laser cut parts I have received so this is not as much of a concern for me but if I were building an RV with mostly flush rivets, I would have the same concern as you do!
Seeing all the reports of issues with laser cut kits received recently makes me worried - my quickbuild fuse kit was just sent to the quick build shop for assembly so it's parts would probably be just as impacted.
Hopefully between that shop and any QA that happens once it's back at Vans someone will take the time to review dimples for cracks, or it won't be much of a time saver having to replace major panels on it. I trust Vans of course, but still - a bit nervous about what might show up in several months!
Hopefully between that shop and any QA that happens once it's back at Vans someone will take the time to review dimples for cracks, or it won't be much of a time saver having to replace major panels on it. I trust Vans of course, but still - a bit nervous about what might show up in several months!
Hello, everyone. Below is another update regarding laser cut parts, reports of cracking, and recent activity around this issue at Van's.
First of all, we want to let you know that we’ve recently shifted manufacturing of many of our laser-cut parts back to our in-house punch presses. We recently installed and commissioned an additional punch press and we now have a fully staffed team/shifts. While a return to manufacturing on the punch presses has always been part of our plan, the timing of this specific decision was also influenced by the dimple cracking problems recently reported on certain parts manufactured using laser cutting. Not all laser-cut parts have proven to be problematic, but to a certain extent some have. So, we made the decision to accelerate bringing them back in-house while we perform additional tests with a focus on dimples with cracks representative of those reported by some of our customers.
We are now running additional manufacturing jobs on our own punch presses to manufacture many of the parts that previously had been produced by third-party laser-cutting manufacturing partners. We’re taking this action now for one main reason: We always prioritize the quality of our product over anything else. When customers report an issue we carefully review the situation, determine what’s needed, and then act appropriately.
We'd like to share some background and history. The initial determination of which parts were assigned to laser-cutting vendors was made based primarily on material thickness as well as which parts are exposed to lower stresses in the assembled aircraft structure. In general, thinner parts are less critical and that material is more resilient in the laser cutting process. Before the initial decision to produce parts using laser cutting was made, fatigue testing of various materials, thicknesses, rivets, and hole prep quality was conducted. Those tests indicated that the service lifespan of laser-cut parts was comparable to that of our punched parts, for those parts we intended to produce using that process – a lifespan well beyond the expected life of an aircraft.
In late 2022, we discovered some problems with specific vendors related to the methods and processes they used in cutting the holes in some parts. Specifically, the holes in some production parts were of relatively poor quality/shape. These were reported by customers as well as being observed at Van’s. Therefore, a second round of testing was conducted to evaluate the parts that were in question. The results of those tests showed that parts with the holes in question retained a fatigue life beyond the expected lifespan of an aircraft.
In addition, at the same time we received reports of some laser-cut holes that were produced oversized on certain RV-12 parts. Testing of the oversized holes on the RV-12 showed that there was no discernable difference in fatigue life. In many cases, the blind rivets used in the RV-12 would actually fail before the hole did, and at a point well beyond the expected lifespan of an aircraft. To further validate this in practical application, Van's performed a fatigue and stress test on a fully assembled RV-12 stabilator assembly – specifically because it is a very high-stress part of the aircraft. That test, which applied the equivalent of more than 30,000 flight hours of high-stress (limit load) cycles, demonstrated that the assembly remained fully intact and undamaged with no evidence of fatigue or stress issues, and with no negative consequences discovered in the structure at the conclusion of the test.
The final issue, which has recently raised concern and has been discussed in this thread, relates to reports received from some customers of cracks forming in holes during the dimpling and/or flush riveting process on certain parts. Initially, we believed this to be a highly isolated issue on a small number of parts. Further investigation has revealed that in the case of some material types, the problem is somewhat more frequent than initially believed. We are currently re-testing these parts and materials under expanded fatigue and stress testing plans. This testing is being conducted with a specific focus on dimpled holes with the cracks in dimples representative of what is being reported).
In addition to our own testing, we have contracted a reputable third-party testing company to assist us in this evaluation. Leveraging the third party will allow us to complete testing more quickly. It will also provide a valuable, independent assessment and a second set of eyes to accompany and validate our in-house stress and fatigue tests. Until these tests are completed and results have been analyzed, we do not know for certain the full scope or extent of what actions might be indicated, but know that we will get to that point.
All tests to this point have indicated good (more than acceptable) fatigue life for the aircraft. We continue to offer to replace parts for customers who observe an issue. Once testing is completed we will determine what is necessary based on the results. We will - as always - do the right thing and stand by our product and customers as we place priority on customers, quality, and safety.
We’re also adding partner vendors with punch-press capability like Van’s uses in-house. It will take two to three weeks for Van’s spec’ed tooling to arrive at those vendors. Once those tools are received they will be able to produce punched parts for Van's as needed.
We are committed to honesty and transparency in what we do. These tests are being executed with speed and priority, but they do take time to complete. As soon as we have additional information to share, we will of course do so.
Thank you again for your patience and understanding as we work through this process.
First of all, we want to let you know that we’ve recently shifted manufacturing of many of our laser-cut parts back to our in-house punch presses. We recently installed and commissioned an additional punch press and we now have a fully staffed team/shifts. While a return to manufacturing on the punch presses has always been part of our plan, the timing of this specific decision was also influenced by the dimple cracking problems recently reported on certain parts manufactured using laser cutting. Not all laser-cut parts have proven to be problematic, but to a certain extent some have. So, we made the decision to accelerate bringing them back in-house while we perform additional tests with a focus on dimples with cracks representative of those reported by some of our customers.
We are now running additional manufacturing jobs on our own punch presses to manufacture many of the parts that previously had been produced by third-party laser-cutting manufacturing partners. We’re taking this action now for one main reason: We always prioritize the quality of our product over anything else. When customers report an issue we carefully review the situation, determine what’s needed, and then act appropriately.
We'd like to share some background and history. The initial determination of which parts were assigned to laser-cutting vendors was made based primarily on material thickness as well as which parts are exposed to lower stresses in the assembled aircraft structure. In general, thinner parts are less critical and that material is more resilient in the laser cutting process. Before the initial decision to produce parts using laser cutting was made, fatigue testing of various materials, thicknesses, rivets, and hole prep quality was conducted. Those tests indicated that the service lifespan of laser-cut parts was comparable to that of our punched parts, for those parts we intended to produce using that process – a lifespan well beyond the expected life of an aircraft.
In late 2022, we discovered some problems with specific vendors related to the methods and processes they used in cutting the holes in some parts. Specifically, the holes in some production parts were of relatively poor quality/shape. These were reported by customers as well as being observed at Van’s. Therefore, a second round of testing was conducted to evaluate the parts that were in question. The results of those tests showed that parts with the holes in question retained a fatigue life beyond the expected lifespan of an aircraft.
In addition, at the same time we received reports of some laser-cut holes that were produced oversized on certain RV-12 parts. Testing of the oversized holes on the RV-12 showed that there was no discernable difference in fatigue life. In many cases, the blind rivets used in the RV-12 would actually fail before the hole did, and at a point well beyond the expected lifespan of an aircraft. To further validate this in practical application, Van's performed a fatigue and stress test on a fully assembled RV-12 stabilator assembly – specifically because it is a very high-stress part of the aircraft. That test, which applied the equivalent of more than 30,000 flight hours of high-stress (limit load) cycles, demonstrated that the assembly remained fully intact and undamaged with no evidence of fatigue or stress issues, and with no negative consequences discovered in the structure at the conclusion of the test.
The final issue, which has recently raised concern and has been discussed in this thread, relates to reports received from some customers of cracks forming in holes during the dimpling and/or flush riveting process on certain parts. Initially, we believed this to be a highly isolated issue on a small number of parts. Further investigation has revealed that in the case of some material types, the problem is somewhat more frequent than initially believed. We are currently re-testing these parts and materials under expanded fatigue and stress testing plans. This testing is being conducted with a specific focus on dimpled holes with the cracks in dimples representative of what is being reported).
In addition to our own testing, we have contracted a reputable third-party testing company to assist us in this evaluation. Leveraging the third party will allow us to complete testing more quickly. It will also provide a valuable, independent assessment and a second set of eyes to accompany and validate our in-house stress and fatigue tests. Until these tests are completed and results have been analyzed, we do not know for certain the full scope or extent of what actions might be indicated, but know that we will get to that point.
All tests to this point have indicated good (more than acceptable) fatigue life for the aircraft. We continue to offer to replace parts for customers who observe an issue. Once testing is completed we will determine what is necessary based on the results. We will - as always - do the right thing and stand by our product and customers as we place priority on customers, quality, and safety.
We’re also adding partner vendors with punch-press capability like Van’s uses in-house. It will take two to three weeks for Van’s spec’ed tooling to arrive at those vendors. Once those tools are received they will be able to produce punched parts for Van's as needed.
We are committed to honesty and transparency in what we do. These tests are being executed with speed and priority, but they do take time to complete. As soon as we have additional information to share, we will of course do so.
Thank you again for your patience and understanding as we work through this process.
Hello Greg, thanks for the update. I will patiently await the results of the investigation before proceeding with addressing the numerous cracked #30 dimples in my riveted aft gear brace assembly.
That said, do you anticipate that the dimple crack evaluation criteria in Section 5.5 are likely to remain as-is, or is it part of the investigation to determine if that criteria can be relaxed?
Cheers!
That said, do you anticipate that the dimple crack evaluation criteria in Section 5.5 are likely to remain as-is, or is it part of the investigation to determine if that criteria can be relaxed?
Cheers!
This is the F-01405D-R rear fuselage bulkhead side channel. I cleaned up the holes with a needle file prior to dimpling, but they still cracked. Sadly I did not notice until well into Ch26 where it's all one massive assembly.
These are the #40 holes that attach the side channel to the righthand skin of the fuse, and since they are already cracked, I decided to do some experimenting with riveting techniques(gun marked with a G, squeezer marked with S) to see which was worse for creating cracks as well as vans new guidelines from section 5.
I cleaned up two of the holes (marked with a C) with a round file under magnification until I could see no evidence of the crack, but to get there I had to enlarge the holes beyond allowable spec. I set the rivets, mainly to see if I could see any cracking appear on the surface, which I did not, except on the one I squeezed but did not clean up (for science!).. it just looked like oblong holes.. Upon drilling out the rivets I found the same crack I thought I had filed out had just continued to grow.
So... following the guidance to clean up your cracked dimples - even when it puts the hole out of spec, in this case did not even completely resolve the issue once a rivet was set in the hole.
What choice do I have but to put doublers of 1.5x thickness on every dimpled flange in my fuse kit or dis-assemble what I've got, and re-build it all with punched parts? If I'm following 43-13-1b I cannot do nothing knowing cracks exist in the structure of an airframe.
These are the #40 holes that attach the side channel to the righthand skin of the fuse, and since they are already cracked, I decided to do some experimenting with riveting techniques(gun marked with a G, squeezer marked with S) to see which was worse for creating cracks as well as vans new guidelines from section 5.
I cleaned up two of the holes (marked with a C) with a round file under magnification until I could see no evidence of the crack, but to get there I had to enlarge the holes beyond allowable spec. I set the rivets, mainly to see if I could see any cracking appear on the surface, which I did not, except on the one I squeezed but did not clean up (for science!).. it just looked like oblong holes.. Upon drilling out the rivets I found the same crack I thought I had filed out had just continued to grow.
So... following the guidance to clean up your cracked dimples - even when it puts the hole out of spec, in this case did not even completely resolve the issue once a rivet was set in the hole.
What choice do I have but to put doublers of 1.5x thickness on every dimpled flange in my fuse kit or dis-assemble what I've got, and re-build it all with punched parts? If I'm following 43-13-1b I cannot do nothing knowing cracks exist in the structure of an airframe.
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No dog in this fight, but thought I would throw out an observation. Everyone seems to assume it is the original crack or deformity that grows once the rivet is set or dimple pressed, but this test shows that may not be the case. From the start of this thread, I had guessed this was a hardness issue. I have no real experience hardening alum, but am pretty familiar with the hardness issues on steel when welding and the brittleness and cracking that it can cause in the heat affected zone. The laser uses heat to cut, just like an oxy acetylene torch, just far more precise in it's placement. It is is clear to me from the pics that the laser is starting just outside of the desired hole or is dwelling too long at it's starting point and am guessing that is creating a small hardened area outside of the hole that is not later tempered and can't help but speculate that this hardened area is causing the crack when the dimpling or rivet expansion happens. I am sure this is part of the Vans investigation.
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Who else remembers the train story days, when they explained that the laser was a process not generally accepted in aviation but it could double production capacity? Something about hiring away a Boeing engineer to validate the process.
My thoughts exactly. I even expressed concern as soon as the video came out. See https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?p=1582683#post1582683
Greg
As stated by several builders in different ways in this thread. Can you provide a list of kits that may be involved in this issue. I am concerned specifically about the RV-10 QB kits..... All mine were manufactured during 2022. Not being able to inspect areas of the Wings, Ailerons, Flaps etc. Was there any issues brought to you from EXEMPLAR of cracking of dimpled parts during manufacture?
As stated by several builders in different ways in this thread. Can you provide a list of kits that may be involved in this issue. I am concerned specifically about the RV-10 QB kits..... All mine were manufactured during 2022. Not being able to inspect areas of the Wings, Ailerons, Flaps etc. Was there any issues brought to you from EXEMPLAR of cracking of dimpled parts during manufacture?
ferrari308guy
I'm New Here
Completely agree. I currently have RV-10 QB Wings and Fuse on order and would like to understand if the parts going into those kits are laser cut or not (based on the timelines here, I expect they are).
I'll of course wait for Van's to come back with further guidance, but from my perspective, I need to fully understand the issue, risk, and mitigation steps for affected QB kits before paying the final deposit and proceeding with shipping/delivery (still a few months out before that comes, luckily).
I am wondering the same. RV-10 QB Fuse green tagged Exemplar Jan 2022 and QB Wings green tagged Exemplar April 2022.
Any my soon to be shipped QB -14 kits as well.
Derek.plough
Member
fear of the unknown
What is going to be the recommended call to action if we have a completed emp kit with an unsatisfactory amount of cracks? I'm mostly concerned about the flight control surfaces that have been closed up. I inspected after riveting but I didn't analyze every rivet with a magnifying glass... At least not until this thread started...
What is going to be the recommended call to action if we have a completed emp kit with an unsatisfactory amount of cracks? I'm mostly concerned about the flight control surfaces that have been closed up. I inspected after riveting but I didn't analyze every rivet with a magnifying glass... At least not until this thread started...
kbalch
Well Known Member
Just to be clear: does this issue affect the earlier kits? In other words, will the -8 parts in my newly-ordered kit be 100% punched by Van's like always, or might some of them be laser cut by random vendors?
I've been excited to get started on my third RV, but I'd rather cancel the order than be subject in any way, shape, or form to this laser cutting debacle.
I've been excited to get started on my third RV, but I'd rather cancel the order than be subject in any way, shape, or form to this laser cutting debacle.
I hadn't even considered that I won't be able to fully visually inspect all the installed rivets in my to-be-assembled any moment rv-10 QB wings and fuse once they deliver end of the year/early next. That's worrying... and probably totally correct on some of the wing areas.
Open letter to Vans:
I think you need to move quickly to address this issue or this will spiral out of control so fast that it may take years for you to recover. Don’t underestimate the power of public opinion and the viral influence of social media. How your customers feel is more important than engineering facts.
Suggestions:
1- In all things, error entirely on the side of safety and customer good will.
2- Publish (widely) the model, kit, part numbers and manufacture date of affected parts and update it daily.
3- Create a clear parts replacement plan and communicate the plan to all staff.
4- Make the “defective” parts replacement as easy as possible for builders. Don’t force them to prove they have problem parts or return them for exchange. Trust your customers.
5- There should be no cost to builders for replacement parts and they should take precedence over new kit parts.
6- Refer to #1
Regardless of the results of the engineering study, builders will not accept parts with holes that may develop cracks after dimpling or riveting. Period.
Regardless of whether or not this turns out to be a serious safety issue, it is a serious public relations issue. If not handled properly and promptly, the long term sales decline and hit to your reputation will likely be far worse than the short term parts replacement costs - as painful as that may be.
I think you need to move quickly to address this issue or this will spiral out of control so fast that it may take years for you to recover. Don’t underestimate the power of public opinion and the viral influence of social media. How your customers feel is more important than engineering facts.
Suggestions:
1- In all things, error entirely on the side of safety and customer good will.
2- Publish (widely) the model, kit, part numbers and manufacture date of affected parts and update it daily.
3- Create a clear parts replacement plan and communicate the plan to all staff.
4- Make the “defective” parts replacement as easy as possible for builders. Don’t force them to prove they have problem parts or return them for exchange. Trust your customers.
5- There should be no cost to builders for replacement parts and they should take precedence over new kit parts.
6- Refer to #1
Regardless of the results of the engineering study, builders will not accept parts with holes that may develop cracks after dimpling or riveting. Period.
Regardless of whether or not this turns out to be a serious safety issue, it is a serious public relations issue. If not handled properly and promptly, the long term sales decline and hit to your reputation will likely be far worse than the short term parts replacement costs - as painful as that may be.
Brian and Everyone,
We hear you. Know that we are working on this, day and night. We understand the frustration and we promise to communicate more detail as soon as we have the information, in context. Several of our staff are in the office over the long weekend working on this. We will have answers and we will communicate them.
One thing I can tell you is this: Not every laser cut parts is potentially problematic. Our current ongoing eval process is carefully analyzing each part so we can fully understand in full context, and then communicate with you and provide a level of detail that is useful and helpful. We will do that as soon as the info is complete.
Side note: I hope you’ll permit me a personal note here. I’m sitting in an RV-12iS at 8500 feet right now with spotty internet coverage, on the last leg crossing the country from Ohio back to Oregon. So, I’m a bit limited in what I can access and do at the moment. As the guy who does much of the communicating, I need to be back in the shop and face to face with colleagues. While we’ve done video and phone calls during my time on the road, and while the folks at HQ have been working hard on this situation, once I’m back in the office tonight and tomorrow I will be better able to see and understand the tests and discuss the details in person with our folks. We promise that we will update again as soon as we are able to share more.
greg
We hear you. Know that we are working on this, day and night. We understand the frustration and we promise to communicate more detail as soon as we have the information, in context. Several of our staff are in the office over the long weekend working on this. We will have answers and we will communicate them.
One thing I can tell you is this: Not every laser cut parts is potentially problematic. Our current ongoing eval process is carefully analyzing each part so we can fully understand in full context, and then communicate with you and provide a level of detail that is useful and helpful. We will do that as soon as the info is complete.
Side note: I hope you’ll permit me a personal note here. I’m sitting in an RV-12iS at 8500 feet right now with spotty internet coverage, on the last leg crossing the country from Ohio back to Oregon. So, I’m a bit limited in what I can access and do at the moment. As the guy who does much of the communicating, I need to be back in the shop and face to face with colleagues. While we’ve done video and phone calls during my time on the road, and while the folks at HQ have been working hard on this situation, once I’m back in the office tonight and tomorrow I will be better able to see and understand the tests and discuss the details in person with our folks. We promise that we will update again as soon as we are able to share more.
greg
Your -8 kit parts may be affected. I was just at another builder's house working on his -7, he had recently received his wing kit and there were definitely laser-cut parts on his shelves.
That's an engineering answer, but as Brian is pointing out, it's no longer an engineering problem. It's a PR problem.
At this point there seem to be 2 groups of RVs: pre-COVID completions and post-COVID completions. It doesn't really matter what the engineering opinions are - post-COVID aircraft are going to be seen as likely to have cracking due to laser cutting.
Unfortunately, opinions are often resistant to facts so engineering answers don't necessarily help.
kbalch
Well Known Member
Precisely. I won’t have any laser cut parts on my airplane. If Van’s can’t or won’t satisfy me on that score, I won’t be a customer for the third time.
It’s not a matter of engineering or safety - it’s a matter of perception and future value. That’s simply not a risk which I’m willing to take.
I’m confident, too, that I won’t be the only one making this decision. The ball is in Van’s court, but not for long. There’s a clock - and not a long one - on their ability to address this situation satisfactorily (and the market will say when it’s satisfied, not Van’s) before it all spins irrevocably out of control.
Oh this is not good. Looking closely at my inventory pictures, it appears my -10 build is comprised of laser cut parts manufactured early to mid 2022.
Every wing rib and leading edge rib is laser. Can you imagine the headache if laser cut fuel tank ribs and tank stiffeners start to fail down the road?
Looks like my build is officially on hold. I don’t really know how to proceed? All my laser cut Emp and Wing parts are primed and converted into completed airplane components. Fuse kit is on the shelf still.
Absolutely no way to move forward into the unknown with a project as spendy as this.
Every wing rib and leading edge rib is laser. Can you imagine the headache if laser cut fuel tank ribs and tank stiffeners start to fail down the road?
Looks like my build is officially on hold. I don’t really know how to proceed? All my laser cut Emp and Wing parts are primed and converted into completed airplane components. Fuse kit is on the shelf still.
Absolutely no way to move forward into the unknown with a project as spendy as this.
Mark33
Well Known Member
What about quality control on the Q.B. kits? I just received my Q.B. -14. Where do I even start the inspection? Is this something that the Q.B. facility and Vans would have been scrutinizing carefully? Do I even start the build? What’s going to be the value of my airplane if it has even one laser cut part in it? I definitely don't want an airframe that even has the potential to start developing cracks later on down the road. Does my entire Q.B. kit need to be scrapped and replaced? I’m certainly not going to dismantle the entire kit to replace defective parts….especially after paying a lot of money for the QB. option. This whole situation has me very worried.
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