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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

Does a Controller Have to Listen to a Readback...

for confirmation from the pilot on an IFR flight plan? I fly professionally and so am coming from a slightly different direction. I seem to remember a memo that came out in the aviation news some years ago that stated a controller is not responsible for listening to the readback of a clearance, thereby does not have confirm that the readback was correct. It seems that I hear a few incorrect readbacks and have had a few myself that are not corrected by the controller. The result of this is that, if the pilot misses a clearance, the controller is absolved, even though the pilot responded to his version of the clearance.

Thanks for taking your time to answer all of these questions, Tony!:)
 
Hi guys, I'd like to offer some supplemental opinions. I work at a low level Up/Down facility in Texas. Up/Down means we work in the tower and the TRACON (approach control).



The result of this is that, if the pilot misses a clearance, the controller is absolved, even though the pilot responded to his version of the clearance.

I'm not sure how this is communicated on the pilot's side (the FAA may not make it a point to let you know when we get in trouble). But rest assured, if we miss a readback error on a clearance or instruction and the pilot does something unauthorized, we DEFINITELY get held accountable for it. The onus is ON US (so that's where the word comes from) to ensure correct readbacks :)

Important info on Class Bravo entry

A clearance into the Class Bravo airspace is REQUIRED. So please don't assume you're cleared into the Bravo unless told specifically. Many other airspace entries allow for a "point out" where the controller handles the coordination of your passing through someone else's airspace for you. Class Bravo is a different beast. A clearance is required. If a your controller is able to "point you out" to a Class Bravo controller, then the guy you're talking to still needs to clear you into it. So from your end it would always sound the same, regardless of how it's working behind the scenes. If you don't receive the clearance automatically, please prompt the controller. This happened to me on a flight into the DFW area and I just said "Hey approach, confirm N1235 cleared into bravo?" They replied with my clearance. Let's look out for each other out there :)

In our airspace (all Class E and two D surface areas) we coordinate the passage of an aircraft through either Class D surface area. The pilot contacting our facility on Approach frequency also satisfies their requirement to establish two way communications for entering the Deltas (either of them). On our side, we're going to call either tower and let them know you'll be coming through, but you've already satisfied your requirement to talk to us by contacting Approach. In the case where I'm in a tower and an aircraft is going to enter the adjacent airports Delta, I will call ahead and coordinate that crossing with the other tower. OR, I will tell the pilot to contact that tower themselves. This is all possible because the airspace movement only requires two-way communications, unlike a class bravo which we all know requires a clearance. The reason for this is that controllers must separate VFR aircraft in Bravo airspace. Of course, controllers in other airspace won't allow planes to hit, but there is no prescribed minimum distance they must remain apart either. This is why Bravo is so different.
 
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FM Weasel....thanks for chiming in. Glad to see I might have a bit of help and a fresh opinion on certain subjects. I am sure you have unique experiences as do I and together we might be able to provide the BEST answers.

I agree with everything you posted above. It was very informative. I am still not convinced about Bravo airspace though. I would agree that if the controller is just providing advisories then it would be on the pilot to remain clear of any nearby Bravo airspace. I think everybody is on the same page there. But if a controller vectors an aircraft (lets say for weather) and that vector penetrates a bravo, I think a point out would satisfy any entry requirement. I really think this is the case because lets think of an IFR aircraft that gets vectored into/through bravo....there is no requirement to get a clearance into the bravo for them. Some might say that the IFR already had a clearance when he recieved his IFR but there will be cases where that IFR clearance didn't take him through bravo whereas MY vector did.

So far, this is just my opinion. My colleague thinks as FM Weasel does and feels as though the "vectoring controller" will/shall issue the clearance into the bravo.

I haven't been to work yet to collaborate a collective answer but I go in this afternoon and should have more insight. I think the best person to ask is a "Bravo" controller and I will be able to do that later today.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks again Weasel...I love getting to the bottom of obscure scenarios. Feel free to chime in on any issue you think I answered questionably.
 
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Class B airspace

I stand by my previous post, from 7110.65: 7-9-2.
VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE

a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.

PHRASEOLOGY CLEARED THROUGH/ TO ENTER/ OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

If I vector you into a Class B but never say "cleared to Enter the class B" YOU have violated the class B.
However, it would be hard for flight standards to make a case against you, but I would not like to test those waters.
 
if ATC asks you to do something that would involve breaking a reg, you are required to respond "unable due to _____"

ATC is not PIC, you are
 
ok...I have conversed with several controllers and we are generally in agreement. The regs describe a vfr pilot talking directly to the controller that is responsible for the class bravo. I think everyone here would agree that you need a specific clearance.

The regs were intended for just that scenario. They also intend to give the controller a fighting chance with regards to separating vfr traffic from ifr traffic. The standard is 1.5 miles. If the controller is too busy or the airspace is too congested, the controller may opt to deny any requests to enter.

Now in our described scenario (you are vectored into the airspace by a controller of a nearby airspace) the controller issuing vectors is responsible for the point out. With this point out completed, the bravo controller now is aware of the vfr aircraft and will separate accordingly. No specific clearance is needed. You are being instructed to fly whatever heading and you are expected to comply.

This is my FIRM opinion but I will continue to inquire and get an OFFICIAL answer. And YES, I will post it and eat crow if I am wrong.
 
I agree with everything you've posted above except the notion that neither controller must, at some point, go back to the pilot and CLEAR him through the Bravo. Without those words, the VFR pilot's flight into Bravo may be coordinated, but he has not received a clearance. I can see how this could be looked over, but I could also see someone making a big deal out of it. In lieu of an official response, I'd recommend that any pilot be very aware of their proximity to class Bravo airspace and prompt the controller for clearance into it if they don't receive one automatically.

Disclaimer: I do not work class Bravo airspace, my opinion is just an interpretation of the regulations supported by other online discussions I've had with controllers that do work Bravo airspace. I'm open to there being some official rule that may or may not agree with my opinion. But I'm definitely in favor of erring on the side of caution in the meantime :)

Interesting bit of trivial knowledge, apparently controllers are also required to let a VFR pilot know when he's exited the Bravo airspace. I received such a transmission on a VFR cross country out of the DFW area and replied with a sort of "Roger?" The controller sensed my confusion and said "I know you know, but we have to tell you." Was news to me :)
 
You won't find me following a vector when VFR into class B without "the magic words". Same holds true for a number of other situations such as canceling an IFR flight plan.
 
Oh? the greatest thread on VAF so far for me. All every interesting and good to test/check my knowledge and practices. So, many thanks for your help and clarification here.

Here is a question which relates more to IFR flying

While enroute and you are cleared for a visual approach? at some point you can start your descend?
I was under the impression that once you are cleared for visual approach, you can do what ever you want. However on one of my recent flight, after being cleared? I advised ATC to start my descend and he seemed surprised and confirmed if I am requesting to go lower. Any thoughts about that?
 
Oh? the greatest thread on VAF so far for me. All every interesting and good to test/check my knowledge and practices. So, many thanks for your help and clarification here.

Here is a question which relates more to IFR flying

While enroute and you are cleared for a visual approach? at some point you can start your descend?
I was under the impression that once you are cleared for visual approach, you can do what ever you want. However on one of my recent flight, after being cleared? I advised ATC to start my descend and he seemed surprised and confirmed if I am requesting to go lower. Any thoughts about that?

he probably confirmed your stated altitude change, if you are cleared for the visual approach you can start your descent, any changes in altitudes to the controller will be confirmed with a read back out of habit probably, but cleared visual is descending a pilots discretion as i understand it
 
position and hold?

This is a great thread.

Hi Tony and Anthony, I have several more questions.

What is the purpose of the ?taxi into position and hold?? After reading several NTSB reports, it seems this is a dangerous position to be in. You?re on the runway and can?t see if a plane is going to land on the same runway.

If I would like to decline a ?position and hold? request, how would I do that? I do want a clearance to takeoff, so I don?t want the controller to think I am not ready. I would rather spend the extra 2 seconds it takes to go from the threshold than to be sitting on an active runway.

I hardly ever get this request, so when I do, I just follow the controllers request even though I am not 100% comfortable.

Guess this brings up another question. How long should you wait before contacting the controller to make sure they haven?t forgotten about you?

Thanks for helping!
 
Bavafa....when you are cleared for a visual you are expected to descend and approach the airport in a "normal" fashion. "Normal" is probably different for many pilots and for each type of aircraft. What "normal" is NOT is a 360 on final or climbing from an altitude you previously vacated. I wouldn't over-think it. A visual approach is just that...you see the airport, you fly towards the airport and you then land at the airport. As far as clearance to descend...the approach clearance grants you permission to descend for landing.

Mike D..."Position and hold" Unfortunately, there was some incident/accident that happened while using position and hold and now there are many rules associated with it. There are so many changes and stipulations now imposed that many controllers opt NOT to use it. Just like you are leary of taking those instructions, some controllers are leary of issuing them. It is a very useful tool for controllers though...at least it used to be without the 100 rules now associated with it. For example....I have 2 aircraft 8 miles apart on final. After the first aircraft lands I cannot immediately clear you for take off. I have to wait for the first aircraft to clear the runway. While waiting for that to happen the second aircraft is barreling down the final and if I held you short of the runway I may not have enough time to get you airborne and turned to avoid conflict in the event of a missed approached. So "position and hold" was used to buy the controller a few seconds to get the departing aircraft out.

The intent is to make it a safer tool to use. If you are not comfortable though, by all means make the controller aware. I have never heard a pilot not take the instruction but if I did I would comply with their wishes. Something such as "Tower, N123 would rather hold short until you can issue a takeoff clearance" would suffice.
 
I have never heard a pilot not take the instruction but if I did I would comply with their wishes. Something such as "Tower, N123 would rather hold short until you can issue a takeoff clearance" would suffice.

I have refused it, but only at airports where I and my capabilities are known by the controllers. My response is something like; "168TX prefers to hold short and am ready to expedite when cleared."
They know that I'm not the kind of person who has to slowly taxi out and get on the centerline before I start to roll. I'm beginning my roll from the hold-short line.
 
Thanks!

great info!! Thanks Tony and Mel!! I will try that next time.
I never feel good just going along because I dont know what to say.
 
great info!! Thanks Tony and Mel!! I will try that next time.
I never feel good just going along because I dont know what to say.

If it's something you don't want to do, simply say "unable." Then it's done, no questions asked.


I don't fully understand the discomfort though. Especially now, there are so many rules governing the use of TIPH that it seems pretty straight forward.
 
Line Up and Wait

Position and Hold may soon become "Line up and wait" to conform with international phraseology. See the following AVWEB article.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PositionAndHoldChangeExpectedSoon_201830-1.html

I've never had a problem with the procedure as long as you have situational awareness. If you are aware that no one else is on final and you get the order...and you can see the runway will be clear soon.. I go for it.

I did hear one controller give a pilot a "Taxi into position and hold" and was kept there too long for his liking (things changed). He let the controller know about it, as he became uncomfortable. This guy was never shy about chastising a controller.

It's always you choice, such as when they have given me a "cleared for takeoff, caution wake turbulence", just after a big guy leaves. Depending on conditions, I've responded "Nxxxx will hold 3 minutes". The response is always "roger, cancel takeoff clearance, hold short runway xx". They don't mind, and respect a PIC doing his PIC thing.

Don
 
Line up and wait...

The "line up and wait" phraseology standardization is way overdue. I have witnessed two cases of pilots mixing "position and hold" with "hold position." Both at KLAX, one a little hairy. No harm, but too close for comfort.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I have witnessed two cases of pilots mixing "position and hold" with "hold position."

Interesting... I was in Canada last week, and heard the "line up" phraseology for the first time. My first quick guess was that it maybe meant to get in line behind the hold bars. In this case it was an instruction to the Twin Otter ahead of me, who proceeded to give a nice example of what it actually meant. But it goes to show that it is possible to get confused about anything you're not used to, or at least it is for me :).

--Paul
 
Another question about flight following:

When in CA, I usually use flight following back to Reno and at some point over the mountains I begin a descent. Eventually I drop off their radar. Usually I get FF terminated as I am descending, but occasionally get low enough that I cannot even raise them on the radio. What is the proper procedure for me here? I usually just switch to 1200 on the transponder and fly on home, but I always worry about the controller that was left hanging and (maybe) wondering about where I went.

greg
 
Greg....I think it might have been stated earlier in this thread but it is proper ettiquete (though not required) to announce a change in heading or altitude while under advisories. Likewise, it would be appreciated to ask for termination yourself if you feel like comm will be lost soon. In your case maybe something like "Approach, N123 is going to start a descent and would like to cancel advisories, we will probably lose comm soon anyway"
 
Thanks for the response. Last time this happened, I was starting my descent and could hear control clearly. I tried radioing the controller several times, and even climbed up a bit, but never got a response back (I'm sure my radio was working). Do controllers worry about someone dropping off the screen like that (I'm sure that he knew I was behind the mountains eventually)? I'm just curious and hate to leave someone like that hanging.

greg
 
Sounds the controllers in your area are probably aware of radio issues in that area. However, they will probably be wondering about you or calling out to you a few times just to terminate your service. It's like hanging up the phone in the middle of the conversation....they don't know what happened, they can ASSUME but that is not something they like to do either.
 
Yes, the Oakland Center folks are aware of the loss of communication as planes go over the Sierra. So is there a way to achieve closure without turning around and flying back into their space until I can get a radio call through? I could call Reno approach as I get into their range. Should I keep my squawk code or drop back to 1200?

Sorry for all the questions, but it is rather unsatisfying to just drop off in the middle of a "conversation"

thanks,
greg
 
I would request termination BEFORE I got to that known lost comm area. they will instruct you to squawk 1200. If you still want advisories, just call on Reno as soon as you are in range.
 
Thanks. That is what I usually do, but sometimes communications drop out unexpectedly (even when I could see Oakland if the smog were gone). Appreciate your advice and comments here - this is a great thread.

greg
 
No disrespect intended, but that's funny. Did you mean it to be?

Erich

I could have stated that a LOT better. I meant straight forward from the pilot's perspective. On the controller side it's a lot more complicated than it used to be.

If you're going to be put into position, it's required that you're informed of any traffic on final or that will be crossing the runway downfield. Also any traffic that's utilizing runways that intersect your runway. The traffic also must be informed that you'll be in position. So hopefully, any time it's being used, everyone's made fully aware of where the traffic is and it shouldn't be something that worries a pilot.

That said... We don't get to use it at my airport! Certain waivers and agreements have to be in place for it to be used at all, and we don't have 'em. So take my opinion with a grain of salt, I suppose, since I don't have real world experience applying TIPH.
 
Avoiding FF/ATC when near Atlanta Bravo

Another Bravo airspace controller question... (or maybe just a pet peeve)

Why do the approach controllers vector VFR FF airplanes wider than the class B airspace requires? For example, when flying from my home airport, CZL, to Aircraft Spruce in Peachtree City, FFC, I have to go around and under the class B airspace. But if I call for VFR FF, the approach controller will vector me much further out than I need to be to stay clear of the class B airspace. This happens every time, not just at the busy arrivals times. The result of this is that I usually don't call them.

Bill Swatling
 
Furthermore....

...why can't we go through the Atl class B while we're on flight following?

I've had to detour like Bill has while well south of the airport but in their class B, and all 5 runways are east-west oriented,

Thanks,
 
Hmmm...can't speak on why the controllers there do that. Some controllers have different comfort levels than others and some adhere to the "expeditious" part of the job and some don't. Sorry you don't find the service a little better but I can't speak on the reasons. Usually there IS a reason though....USUALLY.
 
I am just curious,
I will try to make a long story short.
I was leaving (KDTO), taxied out for departure, the OAT was 100 degrees, After run up I taxied to the hold short, there was a plane on final, and a jet taxing out for an IFR departure. I'm not IFR rated so I don't know the proper terminology, but I think the controller was getting his IFR clearance. After the plane on final landed, I sat on the hold short line for at least 3 to 5 minutes, long enough for my oil temp to reach 210 degrees and my oil pressure dropped to 25. not to mention the temp inside the cockpit. Is this standard procedure, or should I have been given priority. (not sure if it matters but the controllers are not FAA employees, the tower is privately funded).
What is the correct way to let the controller know I need to get airborne?
 
If you are saying that you were delayed because the controller was reading an IFR clearance to another aircraft....there isn't much that can be done about that. It was first come, first served. Although you were first the controller couldn't clear you due to traffic so he went on to the next task. Sounds like you were just a victim of circumstance.
 
ATL Class B

Atlanta let me fly S-N right over the field dead center one night at 2,500'. Once I passed over the field, I asked if I could turn back and do it again and they sent me back over from N-S. I could tell that my request was unusual based on the hesitation, but when we explained that it was for training purposes, they were easy to deal with. It was pretty neat to see the big boys passing under us as they landed and departed...sort of felt like I was being a bad boy and getting away with it.
 
AIRSPACE

PAUL THOMAS, you are absolutely right and the CFI and flt school are wrong.
You were talking to ATC, thats the difference.
 
I guess since aviation is all about logic, there is rarely a "strange" request. All requests are based on some sort of logical quest. I have had pilots request a tailwind runway, a crosswind runway, lights out approaches (military), a few arcing type approaches (flight check), high speed taxi tests, tower fly-bys to check gear, grid type flying (I think google maps hires these guys to provide grid mapping), stuff like that. So when you think about them...they are not really strange. I have spoken to some strange pilots though...the strange ones sound pretty old and one would assume they have 1000's of hours but they are deteriorating and come up with some off the wall phrases. Some even get belligerant. I just try to provide the best service I can while wondering which law will get to him first...the FAA or Murphy's.
 
We had a request once to call one of our satellite airports and find this pilot's fiance and let her know he was landing somewhere else and to come get him.
 
What is the strangest request you have received from a pilot?

All controllers have stories and funny things heard on the radio.
One of my favorites was in Phx, I told a Cessna to follow a jet to the runway, and told the Cessna caution wake turbulence, per the controller handbook, the Cessna replied, "how can I get wake turbulence on the ground?" the pilot of the jet replied, "get behind me, I'll show you wake turbulence" the Cessna pilot without missing a beat replied "I don't like the smell"
icon7.gif
 
Tim 8A

I'm not sure of your situation but I would like to explain how IFR aircraft are handled in Las Vegas.
The satellite airports, VGT, and HND IFR departures are sequenced with departures off of LAS, which means a air carrier may be held on the ground so the IFR departure from the satellite airport gets airborne. HND and VGT controllers have 3 minutes to get their aircraft airborne when released. If you are number one at the runway and they depart the IFR aircraft before you, it may appear that they let the IFR aircraft have priority over you but they do have reasons that may not be apparent to you.
If you think you may have a temperature problem waiting at the runway, let the controller know and they will do their best to help you out.
 
Glad to see other controllers stepping in and offering their experiences. The rules are designed to be as black and white as possible but cannot completely cover every conceivable situation, that is where controller judgement comes in and I welcome any controller to offer different perspectives.

Bruce...do you work at LAS? Do you know "Jerry"? LOL
 
Another Bravo airspace controller question... (or maybe just a pet peeve)

Why do the approach controllers vector VFR FF airplanes wider than the class B airspace requires? For example, when flying from my home airport, CZL, to Aircraft Spruce in Peachtree City, FFC, I have to go around and under the class B airspace. But if I call for VFR FF, the approach controller will vector me much further out than I need to be to stay clear of the class B airspace. This happens every time, not just at the busy arrivals times. The result of this is that I usually don't call them.

Bill Swatling

tell them you have GPS and will remain clear of bravo, they'll let you get as close as you want then.....i've had them vector me away from atlanta, and then i tell them, hey i have GPS here, I see whta you're doing, and he says oh yeah you're /G, go ahead remain clear of bravo
 
Off subject and probably already answered, but I want to ask this my way. I leave home and climb to 4500 feet and contact Tallahassee approach. They give me a transponder code and watch me pass through their airspace. After passing through their airspace (class C) I ask for flight following to Tampa. Tampa (class B) has the 30 mile mode C veil. Will the controller watching me clear me into Tampa's veil or should I terminate flight following and contact Tampa myself before I penetrate the veil? It has happened both ways with no complaints. Thanks.

David Watson
49FD
 
Portable GPS

I have been meaning to bring this up with my instructor, but I have not gone up with him in awhile... my question is about portable GPS devices.

I have a Garmin 696 mounted in my panel (not really portable). Can I tell a controller I have a /G aircraft, so I can be routed direct or stay clear of Bravo? Can I list equipment as /G when filing a flight plan? Just wondering if it has to be a certified unit before telling someone I am /G?
 
Will the controller watching me clear me into Tampa's veil or should I terminate flight following and contact Tampa myself before I penetrate the veil? It has happened both ways with no complaints.

The Tallahassee controller will hand you off to the Tampa approach controller responsible for that area, and that Tampa controller will clear you through the Bravo. Or you may get handed off to a center controller for a while while between approach controls (but I'm guessing their approach controls abut each other, so it'd go directly from Tallahassee approach to Tampa approach).
 
DEWATSON....a mode c veil does not require a clearance. The only thing mode c veil means is you must have a transponder with mode c (although there are some exceptions). The controllers will use your mode c data to inform other aircraft of that data should you become a factor. (that data also helps other aircraft with t-cas see you as well)

In the case you describe...Tallahasee will either terminate you, "radar service terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" or hand you off and tell you to "contact tampa approach on 123.4". In either case, you can penetrate the mode c veil but will need a specific clearance into the Tampa class bravo.

pmccoy...you can list yourself as /g if you'd like. I am not sure if there is any such requirement you must meet before you label yourself /g if you plan on flying IFR, but since you are VFR, I would say it is perfectly acceptable. It might not make a difference to the controller working you because the service you get will be based on IFR traffic in the area and not so much your equipment suffix. I can see them being more willing to work with a /g over a /a because he wouldn't have to give you vectors to avoid traffic if a suitable fix could be used for separation instead. Either way, it wouldn't hurt your chances listing yourself as a /g.
 
I have been meaning to bring this up with my instructor, but I have not gone up with him in awhile... my question is about portable GPS devices.

I have a Garmin 696 mounted in my panel (not really portable). Can I tell a controller I have a /G aircraft, so I can be routed direct or stay clear of Bravo? Can I list equipment as /G when filing a flight plan? Just wondering if it has to be a certified unit before telling someone I am /G?

Peter,
I believe you can announce yourself as /G under VFR but for IFR, you will need to have an approved and certified GPS to be acceptable as /G. You can always use yours in IFR but not as a primary means of navigation.
 
Just a quick update about the VFR pilot being vectored by ATC into Bravo airspace. I made an offical inquiry to a Class Bravo facility and after looking into regulations and such, the official answer is the pilot IS responsible to get a specific clearance into the Bravo airspace. However, they agreed that the pilot would likely never be violated because he was following ATC instruction. Who, or what authority would violate the pilot? Not the controller vectoring, nor the bravo controller who approved the pointout to the controller who is working the pilot. So in essence, both answers are correct. You are violating the FARs if you penetrate the Bravo while on a vector from ATC without explicit clearance to enter but nobody would come looking to violate you.


I know this may sound foggy to some pilots so if you have further questions...ask away.
 
tkatc

I fly a historical aircraft 1940 T-cart with no electric or radios. From time to time I have to fly in the vicinity of Class C (surface to 4000' KSMF) and Class D (KSAC). Since I have no way to communicate with the tower I have never asked.... please advise :)
 
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