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  #1  
Old 09-23-2022, 04:48 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,803
Default Stall/Spin or Low Speed Spiral, turning Base to Final

So I re-read the posting rules, and I think this is legit...

On Wednesday night, I was the presenter at the monthly NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) MentorLIVE webcast, presenting on the information in the title and how to easily prevent both of those. The presentation included *five* videos shot in the RV-9A, although three were altered to make it look like they were flown at dangerously low altitude at Oshkosh.

Enjoy: https://www.mentorlive.site/program/60.html

(Not because of my name recognition, but it has already passed 3,000 views. Trying to keep RVs and everybody else out of the NTSB reports...)
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ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up

Last edited by Ed_Wischmeyer : 09-23-2022 at 06:38 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2022, 06:00 PM
PhatRV PhatRV is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: KAJO
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Default

Does anyone have problem viewing this using the Google Chrome browser? I entered my info but the side bar didn't show up. This problem is on PC Window and on the Samsung phone.

Using Firefox browser works okay.
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Last edited by PhatRV : 09-23-2022 at 08:21 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2022, 06:32 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 4,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
So I re-read the posting rules, and I think this is legit...

On Wednesday night, I was the presenter at the monthly NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) MentorLIVE webcast, presenting on the information in the title and how to easily present both of those. The presentation included *five* videos shot in the RV-9A, although three were altered to make it look like they were flown at dangerously low altitude at Oshkosh.

Enjoy: https://www.mentorlive.site/program/60.html

(Not because of my name recognition, but it has already passed 3,000 views. Trying to keep RVs and everybody else out of the NTSB reports...)
You must mean "prevent"...... right?...
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  #4  
Old 09-23-2022, 06:36 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
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Location: Sonoma County
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Too many requirements for me.....

Click image for larger version

Name:	info.JPG
Views:	79
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	31416

Is there a simple way to view??
I will "circle back" later.
.
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Last edited by gasman : 09-23-2022 at 06:38 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-23-2022, 06:39 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasman View Post
Too many requirements for me.....

Attachment 31416

Is there a simple way to view??
I will "circle back" later.
.
Sorry, out of my control. I tried to post the link to the presentation itself, butÖ
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RV-9A at KSAV (Savannah, GA; dual G3X Touch with autopilot, GTN650, GTX330ES, GDL52 ADSB-In)
Previously RV-4, RV-8, RV-8A, AirCam, Cessna 175
ATP CFII PhD, so I have no excuses when I screw up
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  #6  
Old 09-24-2022, 06:48 AM
hoyden hoyden is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Thanks for sharing your presentation. I've salvaged more than my fair share of botched approaches and the presentation gives focus to what can go wrong. I tend to focus my attention over the nose and wait for the runway to come into view with the control inputs I am comfortable with. When I complete the base to final turn then I decide if I can fix the overshoot or excess height.

I create my challenge from wanting to fly a pattern that always gives me the opportunity to land on the runway if the engine quit. Sometimes others in the pattern will dictate I fly a wider, longer pattern than my usual. Maybe the short answer is "Don't do that" and fly a wider pattern that affords more time to sort out the details.
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  #7  
Old 09-24-2022, 09:46 AM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Thatís a good presentation Ed. I like to keep things simple, and the way you did it in gliders is an excellent method for doing that. Most of us flying RVís are very comfortable with steep bank angles (at altitude), and we may be more prone to making it too steep while in the pattern. Giving yourself a basic requirement to not exceed 30* on the base to final turn should protect against getting close to a low speed spiral. And if that results in an overshoot, no big deal, fly the airplane.
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  #8  
Old 09-24-2022, 10:48 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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The form won't "Submit" for me either on Chrome.

For those who don't want to give their info, give fake data.
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  #9  
Old 09-24-2022, 11:03 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Didnt watch the video because I dont click on external links, but heres a question that has bugged me for a long time:

As a CFII, how does teaching an admitedly very conservative pattern behavior to new students flying very conservative airplanes compare to the military instruction of "max performing the wing"? It seems that the idea to ride the edge of stall all the way to landing on something vicious like a T-38 coming off the perch is very, very different approach - yet it is the military way, proven for decades.

True, different training, but does that mean that one way is always better for RV's? Or is this a "lowest common denominator pilot" issue?
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  #10  
Old 09-24-2022, 12:03 PM
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wcalvert wcalvert is offline
 
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Location: Anacortes Wa
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Question

"As a CFII, how does teaching an admitedly very conservative pattern behavior to new students flying very conservative airplanes compare to the military instruction of "max performing the wing"? It seems that the idea to ride the edge of stall all the way to landing on something vicious like a T-38 coming off the perch is very, very different approach - yet it is the military way, proven for decades.

True, different training, but does that mean that one way is always better for RV's? Or is this a "lowest common denominator pilot" issue?"

Michael

Trying to compare standard civilian training to a military syllabus is difficult at best. Not apples to apples for sure. From the start, military training will emphasize and spend untold amounts of time on theory of flight performance, focusing on high performance aircraft. Every student is expecting to fly something high performance someday, so they soak that up. Then when they get to the plane (or sim) they'll practice multiple edge of the envelope maneuvers on each flight, practicing what they know until it's second nature.

It's probably hard to get a "Sunday flyer" kind of student (no offense intended) to get that depth and pace of training when they're paying the bill and fitting it into their life schedule.

I do feel that more CFI's should push the envelope a little more, but the instructor needs to be comfortable doing that. Their job is to get their charge to solo without killing anyone, so they do that, and pretty well. And for some reason, no one expects a student pilot to spend time at the edge (done safely of course). If your CFI isn't comfortable doing stalls/spins/steep turns, the student certainly won't be. Check in the box and move on only emphasizes the un-importance of the maneuver.

As a quick example, a USN student in the Strike pipeline will make their first aircraft carrier landing with likely less than 150 flight total flight hours (about 80 in the jet they land on the boat) and a gob of sim time. By that time they are instrument qualified in two aircraft. They're still "new" but have significant skills and are very comfortable doing things most civilian pilots have never dreamed of doing. That's just their assignment.

I might say that the difference lies in the goals of the student. If they plan to stay a "Sunday pilot", then the current plan seems to mostly suffice. If they're hoping to do some exploring of the edge in their RV, then maybe a different approach is in order.
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