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Engine Thoughts - Pay the Big Guys or go Local/DIY

aparchment

Well Known Member
Folks,

I am looking for thoughtful (open-minded, non rant) input on the all important propulsion system for my RV7A. I fully recognize there may be no good answers and I just need to bite the bullet on a factory Lycoming, but if anyone has had good experience with my alternate paths, I am all ears.

The current cost of engines has increased significantly since I started my build several lifetimes ago (i should have bought and pickled an engine 10 years ago - oh well). I don't plan to keep this plane for a long time and see myself upgrading 5 years post build to an RV10 built by someone else or a used 4 seater like a Diamond DA40 or older Cirrus. I figure I should finish my project because I still love the idea of flying my own plane, and it's worth more complete. I also want to enjoy the sports car for a bit before converting to the SUV.

I am at firewall forward stage and trying to figure out best bang for the buck, while still keeping me, my significant other and our kids safe (i.e. no auto conversions or engine manufacturers / builders without a significant track record). My choices, as I see it, are the following:

1) Lycoming through VANS
2) Experimental through Superior, Titan, other?
3) Buy a relatively modern core or prop strike from Wentworth and redo it with a known 'local' builder
4) Buy parts and work with a 'local' engine builder

#3 and 4 may get me some savings and an intimate knowledge of how my engine goes together - but is that enough to warrant the 'used engine' hassles (if any) and stigma at resale. As an aside, I did the Mattituck engine build program ages ago, and it was fascinating.

So, in short my motivations are be safe, don't overspend / save money given my ownership timeline, know my engine inside and out.

For those who have considered these choices RECENTLY, what guidance or thoughts do you have for me.

Thoughtful input only please. Thanks in advance.

Antony
 
I did option 4 (buy yellow-tagged core parts, buy the rest new including some custom items, assemble with local help). Saved me some cash, though that was pre-covid (we were building the engine when everything shut down). All told I came out a little under new through Van's (for carb and mag), but with a cold air sump and SDS EFI. Learned a ton, enjoyed building it. Tracking parts was a PITA and Lycoming's manuals are really painful to use.

Resale was not a consideration however.
 
Folks,

1) Lycoming through VANS
2) Experimental through Superior, Titan, other?
3) Buy a relatively modern core or prop strike from Wentworth and redo it with a known 'local' builder
4) Buy parts and work with a 'local' engine builder

Antony

Lots of hard choices. I'd say:
Do you want to fly or want to build? If the answer is "build", there is nothing wrong with option (4). But don't underestimate the amount of work/time required, during which you won't be flying. And if you opt for no shortcuts on the parts, you won't save that much money.
For option 3, be sure to get, in writing, that the crankshaft is guaranteed. That's a big high cost item if it fails inspection.
I personally chose option 1(a), (a) being the experimental version of the factory Lycoming from Vans. IIRC "experimental" was $3K cheaper, and the only real difference was no certification paperwork, e.g., you can never sell it to someone with a regularly certified aircraft.
I'd steer clear of Superior for now, as they still have not resolved the crankshaft A/D on some of their engines.
The other factor is re-sale value. If you're only going to fly 500 hours or less before selling, I suspect you'll get a larger fraction of your investment back at resale with a factory new engine now 500 hours or less old, than with any of the other options.
 
Options 1 and 2 are likely to have a lead time of over a year right now. If you're ready to install, it might make them not starters.
 
I was just faced with the bad news that I had a cam failure on my RV-10. My options were:

$70K+ for a new motor (18 months wait time)
$35K for an FAA level overhaul at a local shop, 3-4 months before work would begin.

I chose to do the work myself. Since the motor only had 700 hours since overhaul, I had the cylinders IRAN’d for ~$800 each.
Crank dialed and measured at an overhaul shop, was just fine.
Case sent to Divco, dowel pin mod and milled and line bored.
Gears all sent to Aircraft Specialists, two of them replaced.
Rods sent in too, NDT, balanced and new piston pin bushings.
New bearings, tappets, and cam.

Total cost was $11K, time to complete was about 100 days.

Would I do it again, yes, I learned a lot and it has been a great challenge.

Caveat, I am starting the motor this week….fingers crossed that Murphy doesn’t catch me for sharing this post.
 
Thanks guys

Good inputs guys. Thank you.

A few key points you made:

1) If the engine is still relatively low time at sale, the factory new 'experimental' build is going to hold value well,
2) Correspondingly, DIY resale value may kill the savings at sale (pay now or pay later)
3) Superior is still in the dog house,
4) You have to really want to learn the engine build and find a good builder b/c the DIY route can be tedious due to sourcing parts and confusing build guidance
Update:
5) No matter what I am going to wait -- parts are taking a long time as well (according to a local builder)
 
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I purchased my engine through Vans a few years ago when the price was reasonable. My primary reason was I didn't know much about engine and I picked the safest route. Back then, the price difference wasn't that much comparing a new Lycoming to a rebuild from a reputable builder.

I know a lot more about engines from years ago. If I have to do it over again, I would most likely get a good core and rebuild because the price of a new Lycoming has increased so much.
 
Caveat, I am starting the motor this week….fingers crossed that Murphy doesn’t catch me for sharing this post.

LOL! Good luck!

This experimental game of ours is getting pricey, so finding ways to keep things reasonable without compromising safety is still a worthwhile goal.

There are days I miss our 40K IFR Cessna 172 and the freedom of not renting, but it was severely limited compared to these airplanes ... and I have always wanted to build.
 
One of the beauties of a new factory engine is that everything fits <mostly>. You <typically> won't waste a couple hundred bucks and a few weeks of back and forth on custom engine control push-pulls, you won't have to fab your own brackets, your baffles won't need major surgery, etc.

FYI, I bought a Barrett rebuild for the -10 and did a DIY rebuild (with help) for the RV-6. I have been satisfied with both choices, although the a new factory engine would have installed faster and easier in both cases.
 
Good inputs guys. Thank you.

A few key points you made:

1) If the engine is still relatively low time at sale, the factory new 'experimental' build is going to hold value well,
2) Correspondingly, DIY resale value may kill the savings at sale (pay now or pay later)
3) Superior is still in the dog house,
4) You have to really want to learn the engine build and find a good builder b/c the DIY route can be tedious due to sourcing parts and confusing build guidance
Update:
5) No matter what I am going to wait -- parts are taking a long time as well (according to a local builder)

I would say factory new engine (not remanufactured but a true new first run engine) will hold more value even at 2000hrs because it only has literally 2000hrs. A remanufactured factory engine with 0 total time actually has an unknown amount of hours on any of all of the parts they used for the remanufactured engine. I just went through all this and rebuilt my own engine. I learned a lot and also learned that the shop that overhauled it years ago for the first builder owner took many shortcuts and did not follow service instructions that essentially showed at 1100hrs and required me to do this overhaul. Yes lycoming is a year wait and without the vans discount and without a core factory new is $96k as quoted from air power.
 
I’m on my third engine from Jimmy Brod - JB Aircraft Engine Service from Sebring, FL. All of them have been trouble free, although my current one only has 50 hours on it so far. I talked to Jimmy in October ‘21, and had it in my hangar three months later. The crank case was a reconditioned one from Divco, but it is a newer design roller lifter case. Cylinder assemblies and other parts all new. Comes with a warranty.
 
I’m on my third engine from Jimmy Brod - JB Aircraft Engine Service from Sebring, FL. All of them have been trouble free, although my current one only has 50 hours on it so far. I talked to Jimmy in October ‘21, and had it in my hangar three months later. The crank case was a reconditioned one from Divco, but it is a newer design roller lifter case. Cylinder assemblies and other parts all new. Comes with a warranty.

I agree Jimmy is a good guy. He told me he was buried and had an 8-10 weeks backlog. What engine do you have and what was the ballpark on dollars? He quoted me $15K plus parts if nothing but the cam was bad.
 
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I agree Jimmy is a good guy. He told me he was buried and had an 8-10 weeks backlog. What engine do you have and what was the ballpark on dollars? He quoted me $15K plus parts if nothing but the cam was bad.

I got my engine from JBA last January - O-360-A1A, $30K. This was the new engine, not a a rebuild.
 
I'm going route (3). I sourced a core (at the start of COVID), off an Aztec being parted out (the person parting out acquired it for the engines - the other is going on his RV10).

We disassembled the engine and I did all the leg work of delivering parts to Aircraft Specialties/DIVCO, sourcing used yellow tag parts for rebuild/replacing anything that may have gotten rejected, and sourcing second-hand new items to complete the engine. I now have a complete ready-to assemble IO540 in boxes, certified yellow tag components, with new cylinders and accessories. I'm going to deliver my boxes to a shop that specifically tailors to engine overhauls/maintenance (engine 'clean room', test stand, etc), for professional assembly. I should drive away with a ready to hang IO540 for less than $40k in total.

Side Note: JB Engines in FL has a great reputation and usually has a few engines in stock to sell at Sun N Fun. They do sell quick, however!
 
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I got my engine from JBA last January - O-360-A1A, $30K. This was the new engine, not a a rebuild.

I wonder how that’s possible…crank case is 8k crank shaft is 8k plus new cylinders 8k plus rods 4k at least, where are the other parts and he doesn’t work for free?

I’m talking all new parts for the above prices. I was wanting all new parts for my build and that’s the parts quotes I got never mind the 1 year wait to get it from Lycoming.
 
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Another option - Aerosportpowers build program. Build it side by side with an expert in their shop. Something to consider if you can take the time to go there.
 
I wonder how that’s possible… I’m talking all new parts for the above prices. .

Most commonly these 'new OH' engines (Barrett/JBA included) are using OH'd components but are built to 'new limits'. So its a sum of parts that come together to make an engine that spec's into new book tolerances on all the rotating assemblies. You get a 0SMOH 'new limits' logbook, but no real telling to the history of the individual components.

This contrasts to say, Aerosport Power, that builds a kit engine using all-new Lycoming components. They can put their personal touches on the engine (port/polish, cold air intake, ignition of your choice), but its not going to be a money saver vs ordering from Lycoming (might cost a little more, actually).
 
Most commonly these 'new OH' engines (Barrett/JBA included) are using OH'd components but are built to 'new limits'. So its a sum of parts that come together to make an engine that spec's into new book tolerances on all the rotating assemblies. You get a 0SMOH 'new limits' logbook, but no real telling to the history of the individual components.

This contrasts to say, Aerosport Power, that builds a kit engine using all-new Lycoming components. They can put their personal touches on the engine (port/polish, cold air intake, ignition of your choice), but its not going to be a money saver vs ordering from Lycoming (might cost a little more, actually).

That’s why I always wonder when someone says they have a new engine. I have to then clarify what I mean by factory new to me which is new metal and new parts. I think some get confused on what new vs factory remanufactured vs overhaul means.
 
I was just faced with the bad news that I had a cam failure on my RV-10. My options were:

$70K+ for a new motor (18 months wait time)
$35K for an FAA level overhaul at a local shop, 3-4 months before work would begin.

I chose to do the work myself. Since the motor only had 700 hours since overhaul, I had the cylinders IRAN’d for ~$800 each.
Crank dialed and measured at an overhaul shop, was just fine.
Case sent to Divco, dowel pin mod and milled and line bored.
Gears all sent to Aircraft Specialists, two of them replaced.
Rods sent in too, NDT, balanced and new piston pin bushings.
New bearings, tappets, and cam.

Total cost was $11K, time to complete was about 100 days.

Would I do it again, yes, I learned a lot and it has been a great challenge.

Caveat, I am starting the motor this week….fingers crossed that Murphy doesn’t catch me for sharing this post.

Outstanding! Amazing that you took on that big of a job.

Is that considered a major overhaul?
 
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