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RV-4 off field landing thoughts?

poppadok

Member
I’ve had my -4 for a year now and one thing that I think through pretty regularly are what I would do if I had to put down in a field, especially the plowed hayfields or cornfields like we have around here where I live. I’ve heard that RVs have a tendency to end up on their backs, so I was wondering if that’s true, and then for the -4 what are the prevailing thoughts on opening the canopy and hoping it rips away, or keeping it closed? Neither situation seems good if the planes on its back, but do we have a record of better results with one over the other?

I did try to do a search on the topic but didn’t find anything specific to our model, and I do carry a canopy breaker and some goggles for peace of mind!
 
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After 20+ years of flying my 4, that is the single bothersome issue I have always had with the design: Egress after a flip.
Especially when one considers that there will probably be some type of injury which will only complicate the process.
I always come back to: touch down as slow as possible, 3-point, tail-low and hope there are people around.
Not sure there is any good answer but I look forward to the conversation.
 
The synthesis of my reading on this important topic:

Many successful off field landings in RVs (that we find out about) seem to end with them on their back, no matter what model. When it flips over, having the canopy there to protect you and your passenger seems like a good idea. Without it, there will be little to keep the ground from encroaching into your headspace. The "roll bar" on the RV-4 will probably sink into the ground quickly if there is no canopy.

The unsuccessful off field landing are stall/spin accidents that end up with the RV "pancaking" down upright on their belly - these are usually fatal. Obviously you don't want to do this.

I know of one RV-8 that landed in a field and didn't flip, but his gear legs were sheared off during the landing. He rebuilt the aircraft.

It can be done but is not easy to get out after a flip. Be sure to have some tools to break the canopy, and hope that there is no fire.

If you can land in a cornfield, that usually has a good outcome, as long as you fly the aircraft and don't stall/spin. Think about how you will be found in very large cornfields, and perhaps plan where you put down accordingly. Finding a small aircraft in a 200 acre cornfield without a drone or some other way to get up high will take a lot of time.

If you can land on an empty road that will be great, but watch out for power and telephone wires that are often strung along the road. If the road is not empty, keep in mind that you are involving unwitting people into your emergency.
 
My thoughts, too, with my RV-4. I have an escape tool attached to shoulder harness and halon fire extinguisher within easy reach. Make the best three point ever. My first choice is country roads out here in the stix. I am usually on guard on com 2 so I might be able to get off a quick Mayday.
 
Let me relate a story I read here on VAF years ago. An RV (i think it was a 6) had an engine failure somewhere up near Hyannis Port, Mass. Guy landed, flipped, but was ok, upside down. BUT, he had landed in some sort of marshy ground, and water started coming in. Poor guy drowned. The guy here on VAF writing that thread, talked about having one of those small battery operated hacksalls (or Hacksaws--not sure on the proper spelling) So I went to HD, and looked at them. Per Dougie, I'm not supposed to put brand names in here, but one with the name of a city, starting with M, and ending in kee, south of Oshkosh, is what I bought. At the store, they had a solid steel bar shaped like a ruler. Cut that in half twice in about 1 1/2 minutes, each. So hopfully, it will go thru the side of my 8 very quickly. So I've now got it velcroed to the wall about where my back seater's ankle would be. I can reach down with my left hand,(if I still have a left hand:eek:) and undo it, and hopefully cut my way out pretty quickly. These canopy breaker tools,--- would a guy have enough swing arc with his arm, inside a small RV 4 cockpit to break the canopy?? And oh yeah, I will sit in my cockpit with my eyes closed, and undo the velcro on my saw with one hand---just for practice.:rolleyes:
 
I’ve had my -4 for a year now and one thing that I think through pretty regularly are what I would do if I had to put down in a field, especially the plowed hayfields or cornfields like we have around here where I live. I’ve heard that RVs have a tendency to end up on their backs, so I was wondering if that’s true, and then for the -4 what are the prevailing thoughts on opening the canopy and hoping it rips away, or keeping it closed? Neither situation seems good if the planes on its back, but do we have a record of better results with one over the other?

I did try to do a search on the topic but didn’t find anything specific to our model, and I do carry a canopy breaker and some goggles for peace of mind!

I read an article years ago about the accident statistics on light planes doing off field landings. When pilots have an engine out, most times they look at soybean fields as shorter crops and pick them to land in. The trouble is, soy beans are a very viny crop that is low to the ground. This leads to the planes landing gear being arrested quite rapidly and almost always leads to the plane flipping over on to it's top.

However, when planes went down into standing corn, the stalks wrapping around the wing and all the other parts of the aircraft acted like the arresting net that aircraft carriers use to stop a crippled jet. The ears of corm might beat the **** out of the aircraft, but the arrest is rapid and the plane stays upright. Food for thought:)........
 
OK, Great. Quick check, besides Iowa, where all does corn grow in this country?? From now on, I want to make sure I only fly over corn fields!!!
What's a corn field look like from 4500 Ft.??
Yeah, I know, this post is getting a little corny.
 
... one of those small battery operated hacksalls (or Hacksaws--not sure on the proper spelling) ... is what I bought. At the store, they had a solid steel bar shaped like a ruler. Cut that in half twice in about 1 1/2 minutes, each. So hopfully, it will go thru the side of my 8 very quickly. ...
I'm considering one of these too, my only concern is sparks and fire if fuel is leaking. Wonderful topic for Sunday morning!
 
Let me relate a story I read here on VAF years ago. An RV (i think it was a 6) had an engine failure somewhere up near Hyannis Port, Mass. Guy landed, flipped, but was ok, upside down. BUT, he had landed in some sort of marshy ground, and water started coming in. Poor guy drowned. The guy here on VAF writing that thread, talked about having one of those small battery operated hacksalls (or Hacksaws--not sure on the proper spelling) So I went to HD, and looked at them. Per Dougie, I'm not supposed to put brand names in here, but one with the name of a city, starting with M, and ending in kee, south of Oshkosh, is what I bought. At the store, they had a solid steel bar shaped like a ruler. Cut that in half twice in about 1 1/2 minutes, each. So hopfully, it will go thru the side of my 8 very quickly. So I've now got it velcroed to the wall about where my back seater's ankle would be. I can reach down with my left hand,(if I still have a left hand:eek:) and undo it, and hopefully cut my way out pretty quickly. These canopy breaker tools,--- would a guy have enough swing arc with his arm, inside a small RV 4 cockpit to break the canopy?? And oh yeah, I will sit in my cockpit with my eyes closed, and undo the velcro on my saw with one hand---just for practice.:rolleyes:

Glad to see people have found a use these tools for something other than stealing catlytic convertors.
 
In addition to a Halon extinguisher and good canopy breaker tool, I installed an automotive type "G" switch to the electric fuel pump circuit.
 
Out here in the hinterlands I teach the following:

1. Pick a side road and go for that.
2. Switch fuel selector to attempt restart; if no restart shut fuel off, boost pump off. Run thru the emergency checklist.
3. If telephone poles, wires, etc. pose a problem, sidestep but stay close to the road. Always stay close to the road so help can get to you.
4. Soybeans will flip you over, no matter what airplane. I have watched an airplane flip over in real time landing in soybeans. I assisted in the recovery of two other airplanes in soybeans. Early in the season you will not flip. Soft soil will also cause the airplane to flip.
5. Corn will stop the airplane quickly but it will hammer the airplane in the late summer season.
6. Not applicable to an RV but in a complex airplane land gear up.

Last year I was a first responder to a terrible aircraft accident with three fatalities and the corn was a major hinderance to getting to the crash site.

I also have pulled a friend out of a 6A when he had the nosegear faile on our turf runway. I cut my forearms on the broken canopy glass in helping him get out then securing the airplane.

Lessons learned from both of these incidents: have a large knife, egress tool, and a big fire extinguisher handy that requires no thought to retrieve. Both in your airplane and in the hangar.

I carry a folding spade as an egress tool.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092CRYLHS/
 
there are a few threads more or less treating the same subject on VAF... somewhere...

Re the "non-named city" hacksaw, I think it would be a great tool, but... weighing >4 lbs and rather bulky, I couldn't see where to fit one in a -4, being readily accessible to the pilot.

I bought myself a medium sized tactical axe, velcro taped on the spar under my knees, and hope it would be enough to save my bacon :eek:
 
there are a few threads more or less treating the same subject on VAF... somewhere...

Re the "non-named city" hacksaw, I think it would be a great tool, but... weighing >4 lbs and rather bulky, I couldn't see where to fit one in a -4, being readily accessible to the pilot.

I bought myself a medium sized tactical axe, velcro taped on the spar under my knees, and hope it would be enough to save my bacon :eek:
Pic of your axe??
 
there ya go...
Quite a few available on the market, this one is called SOG Survival Hawk SK1001-CP. I found the size and weight suitable for what I had in mind.
 

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  • Axe.pdf
    368.6 KB · Views: 151
Been there, done that!

I landed my beautiful RV4 in a cow pasture after engine failure Dec 2006. It flipped. Here are a few notes from my experience.
After the plane came to rest on it's back and I realized my son and I are okay (not a scratch on either of us hanging upside down in seatbelts), I noticed it was kind of dark. At the time I didn't know the forward momentum bent the roll bar and it sank in dirt a couple inches. There was only about 2 inches between the ground and the canopy skirt.
Dont release seat belt until you dig an escape hole. I released my seatbelts. Now I'm upside down on my shoulders trying to dig with my hands. Almost an impossible task.
Dont try to slither out the hole you just dug until the hole is big enough to get through.
I got my head and shoulders through the hole getting scratched up by broken plexi. I got stuck. I pushed very hard with my legs to force my way out. Broke a rib doing this and was very stuck now.
Tried to channel my inner Hulk. With my back already against the ground, I put my feet on the floor of the plane and tried to lift the plane. I didn't turn green, my muscles didn't bulge, the plane didn't move.
At the time I had a flip phone in my pants pocket. After intense squirming, I was able to get my flip phone out and dial 911 to tell them my predicament. They asked for my address. I told them I was in a cow pasture about 7 miles north of the airport.
While all this was going on, people in a near by subdivision seen the crash, called 911, rounded up a couple neighbors and came to my rescue. They lifted the tail, my son and I slid out from under the plane. I would not have gotten out with out help.
My son was 12 at the time. He unlatched his seat belt and was small enough to turn over to his hands and knees. He came out unhurt.
I now carry gloves, a glow stick and a multifunction survival tool all with in reach.

I tried to attach a picture of the bent roll bar. Maybe it will work.

The link to the accident report
Aviation Results
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb....?queryId=99708b28-c8c6-4f98-b32d-84383efed2b6 in


20170305_154530.jpg
 
I landed my beautiful RV4 in a cow pasture after engine failure Dec 2006. It flipped. Here are a few notes from my experience.
After the plane came to rest on it's back and I realized my son and I are okay (not a scratch on either of us hanging upside down in seatbelts), I noticed it was kind of dark. At the time I didn't know the forward momentum bent the roll bar and it sank in dirt a couple inches. There was only about 2 inches between the ground and the canopy skirt.
Dont release seat belt until you dig an escape hole. I released my seatbelts. Now I'm upside down on my shoulders trying to dig with my hands. Almost an impossible task.
Dont try to slither out the hole you just dug until the hole is big enough to get through.
I got my head and shoulders through the hole getting scratched up by broken plexi. I got stuck. I pushed very hard with my legs to force my way out. Broke a rib doing this and was very stuck now.
Tried to channel my inner Hulk. With my back already against the ground, I put my feet on the floor of the plane and tried to lift the plane. I didn't turn green, my muscles didn't bulge, the plane didn't move.
At the time I had a flip phone in my pants pocket. After intense squirming, I was able to get my flip phone out and dial 911 to tell them my predicament. They asked for my address. I told them I was in a cow pasture about 7 miles north of the airport.
While all this was going on, people in a near by subdivision seen the crash, called 911, rounded up a couple neighbors and came to my rescue. They lifted the tail, my son and I slid out from under the plane. I would not have gotten out with out help.
My son was 12 at the time. He unlatched his seat belt and was small enough to turn over to his hands and knees. He came out unhurt.
I now carry gloves, a glow stick and a multifunction survival tool all with in reach.

I tried to attach a picture of the bent roll bar. Maybe it will work.

The link to the accident report
Aviation Results
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb....?queryId=99708b28-c8c6-4f98-b32d-84383efed2b6 in


View attachment 14943



https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20061219X01808&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA

Very interesting story - both the cause and how you and your son got out successfully! Thanks for sharing it.

Do you think with what you carry now you could have gotten out without help? What's your view on eject the canopy or not? I'd guess keeping the canopy on kept you safe, but would be interested in your view.
 
I landed my beautiful RV4 in a cow pasture after engine failure Dec 2006. It flipped. Here are a few notes from my experience.
After the plane came to rest on it's back and I realized my son and I are okay (not a scratch on either of us hanging upside down in seatbelts), I noticed it was kind of dark. At the time I didn't know the forward momentum bent the roll bar and it sank in dirt a couple inches. There was only about 2 inches between the ground and the canopy skirt.
Dont release seat belt until you dig an escape hole. I released my seatbelts. Now I'm upside down on my shoulders trying to dig with my hands. Almost an impossible task.
Dont try to slither out the hole you just dug until the hole is big enough to get through.
I got my head and shoulders through the hole getting scratched up by broken plexi. I got stuck. I pushed very hard with my legs to force my way out. Broke a rib doing this and was very stuck now.
Tried to channel my inner Hulk. With my back already against the ground, I put my feet on the floor of the plane and tried to lift the plane. I didn't turn green, my muscles didn't bulge, the plane didn't move.
At the time I had a flip phone in my pants pocket. After intense squirming, I was able to get my flip phone out and dial 911 to tell them my predicament. They asked for my address. I told them I was in a cow pasture about 7 miles north of the airport.
While all this was going on, people in a near by subdivision seen the crash, called 911, rounded up a couple neighbors and came to my rescue. They lifted the tail, my son and I slid out from under the plane. I would not have gotten out with out help.
My son was 12 at the time. He unlatched his seat belt and was small enough to turn over to his hands and knees. He came out unhurt.
I now carry gloves, a glow stick and a multifunction survival tool all with in reach.

I tried to attach a picture of the bent roll bar. Maybe it will work.

The link to the accident report
Aviation Results
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb....?queryId=99708b28-c8c6-4f98-b32d-84383efed2b6 in


View attachment 14943
Wow,,
Scary story, thank you for sharing.
 
My plan for the RV-4 was to get rid of the canopy for any off field landing. It will definitely depart the airplane if you open it in flight. Hopefully the roll bar (V) and tail would provide enough clearance to get out.
 
The Spitfires had a hatch on the side to aid in entry/egress. Wonder if something like that would be practical on an RV....

spitfire.jpg
 
I bought myself a medium sized tactical axe, velcro taped on the spar under my knees, and hope it would be enough to save my bacon :eek:

You sure the velcro is strong enough to keep the axe in place, in a crash? If not it might just chop off your leg.
 
I have a Gerber survival knife with a hammer/breaker pommel. It is securely fastened upside down to my right shoulder harness.
 
The Spitfires had a hatch on the side to aid in entry/egress. Wonder if something like that would be practical on an RV....

View attachment 14947

Very critical structural element in the area just below the canopy rail on the sides. Good idea for all around access, but it would be a big challenge to interrupt this item.

As for the cordless saw, please provide a link. Cutting out the side of the plane or canopy with a power tool does sound valuable. Much easier than trying to dig out with injuries. Never thought about keeping the straps on until you figure out an escape plan also.

I do think the pointed top of the -4 roll structure is a significant weakness (sinking into the ground).

Good discussion.
 
Well said...

Out here in the hinterlands I teach the following:

1. Pick a side road and go for that.
2. Switch fuel selector to attempt restart; if no restart shut fuel off, boost pump off. Run thru the emergency checklist.
3. If telephone poles, wires, etc. pose a problem, sidestep but stay close to the road. Always stay close to the road so help can get to you.
4. Soybeans will flip you over, no matter what airplane. I have watched an airplane flip over in real time landing in soybeans. I assisted in the recovery of two other airplanes in soybeans. Early in the season you will not flip. Soft soil will also cause the airplane to flip.
5. Corn will stop the airplane quickly but it will hammer the airplane in the late summer season.
6. Not applicable to an RV but in a complex airplane land gear up.

Last year I was a first responder to a terrible aircraft accident with three fatalities and the corn was a major hinderance to getting to the crash site.

I also have pulled a friend out of a 6A when he had the nosegear faile on our turf runway. I cut my forearms on the broken canopy glass in helping him get out then securing the airplane.

Lessons learned from both of these incidents: have a large knife, egress tool, and a big fire extinguisher handy that requires no thought to retrieve. Both in your airplane and in the hangar.

I carry a folding spade as an egress tool.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092CRYLHS/

Bob,
Great minds do think alike sir, excellent input on this subject one that I too have entertained numerous times.

I would add with the RV4's tendency to flip over in soft ground and your excellent farmers guide to crop adherence to aircraft structures to use soft plowed fields or as a last resort.
My primary emergency field in my RV4, (Harmon Rocket and RV6X ) like yours given enough altitude, time and glide distance notwithstanding is
1. airport, 2. paved road, 3. dirt road, 4. country driveway, 5. meadow with clear approach, 6. hay field, and in rugged mountains with no place usable whatsoever, rivers, waterways and lakes.

I too have been a first responder to several flip overs and one fatal stall spin that occurred right in front of me in my youth during banner pick up activities. I've also cleaned up three fatal class A mishaps in the USAF involving close bros.
All of them had one thing in common, poor decision making processes.

Having said all that, my advice:
Have a plan, chair fly it a few times sitting in the cockpit or your dining room at home with the engine off in a 1G environment and go thru the motions in your mind (and with your hands) so when you do it for real it's muscle memory.
:)
V/R
Smokey

PS: Given my previous experiences I carry a Smith and Wesson 911 tool in my airplane and my truck.
https://www.amazon.com/Smith-Wesson...236U5HW/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B00236U5HW&psc=1



Have a plan!
 
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You sure the velcro is strong enough to keep the axe in place, in a crash? If not it might just chop off your leg.

Yep, should hold good enough... and the axe is packed in its sheath, nevertheless not in a hurry to demonstrate :eek:


Thanks to you guys sharing your story, frightening stuff for sure... I’d have expected that -4 roll bar to hold more. Also the longerons gave in some, impressive forces in action.

As for the elec hacksaw, there are more cons than the bulk and weight: one would have to find, or make, a spot or hole to start cutting, at the risk of braking the blade. The other, not sure I’d want to use that tool with any gas around me, always possible following a somersault.
 
Many years ago, in my RV4, I had an engine failure and ended up in our own soybean field! The crop was quite small at that stage of maturity and I found that my wheel tracks lined up with the soybean rows!
Anyways, I had a guy in the back and when we touched down, hard, the tail came up and then settled back down. I suspect that without the passenger I would have been on my back as the field conditions were somewhat soft.
No damage was done to the airframe but the engine needed a complete overhaul.
I dragged it out of the field backwards, with my tractor and a rope.
I had glided over our house and my youngster at the time said, "there is a glider"
My wife shouted, that's no glider that's your father!
 
using road as 1st choice

what are consequences of hitting a single telephone/power wire crossing a road? video of plane in Mulkiteo hitting wire found on interweb shows it basically just flying through one without any change in trajectory. It did ignite a fireball, but... I'm thinking country road, set up for emergency landing and then hitting crossing wire at 50 ft. Nose over and instant bad outcome? or fly through it and land fine? Or no way to know?
 
using road as 1st choice

what are consequences of hitting a single telephone/power wire crossing a road? video of plane in Mulkiteo hitting wire found on interweb shows it basically just flying through one without any change in trajectory. It did ignite a fireball, but... I'm thinking country road, set up for emergency landing and then hitting crossing wire at 50 ft. Nose over and instant bad outcome? or fly through it and land fine? Or no way to know?
 
Great thread. I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and especially appreciate those who shared their personal experiences about egress after a forced landing.

As an RV-8 owner some of this discussion is applicable to me. I too have given thought to the possibility of having to extract myself and possibly a passenger while inverted.

I like the idea of using a reciprocating battery operated saw to cut the airframe but fear the sparks produced may provide an ignition source to potentially leaking 100LL. It would be awful to survive the forced landing only to have another incident (fire) as result of your own actions.

Again thank you all for the contributions. Very informative and thoughtful thread.
 
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Thanks for all the input, I’m happy to see that my concern isn’t just an irrational thought and that others are thinking through it too.

On that note, I just stumbled across what could be the best eacape tool that I’ve seen. I’ll be ordering one and will provide feedback once I have it. It looks like a Kydex sheath is available too which I think I could rivet in place in a handy location as well.

https://www.offgridtools.com/collections/featured-products-2/products/survival-axe
 
Perhaps tangential from this topic, but I’ve brainstormed about how a bailout from a -4 might work. Assuming the soft rivets on the canopy hinge line shear properly and the canopy departs the plane, what’s the next egress step? Assuming uncontrolled bail out that doesn’t give the luxury of climbing out and then jumping.

One person I’ve spoken to on the matter was thinking unbuckle, put in full forward trim while holding level (if possible), then sort of standing up and letting go of the stick to let the plane fall away.
 
if you have any control of the aircraft, and thats a big if, loose the canopy, unstrap, roll inverted and push........
 
Assuming the soft rivets on the canopy hinge line shear properly and the canopy departs the plane

Well... an acquaintance (when is an acquaintance a friend..., alright, stop digressing) of mine forgot to lock his canopy (yes, on a -4), and just after T/O, said canopy flipped open and slammed on the right wing upper surface. No, didn't shatter, held all good, as did the acc plans installed rivets. Pilot hold it tight, lost his and his girl friend's headset and sunglasses, kept his cool and landed safely right thereafter, well done (double hand clapping emoticon here) Karel :cool:

Not sure what will happen on your very craft at higher speed though, but an egress will most probably be possible... just don't forget that chute though, or learn to flap your own wings real fast :D
 
what are consequences of hitting a single telephone/power wire crossing a road? video of plane in Mulkiteo hitting wire found on interweb shows it basically just flying through one without any change in trajectory. It did ignite a fireball, but... I'm thinking country road, set up for emergency landing and then hitting crossing wire at 50 ft. Nose over and instant bad outcome? or fly through it and land fine? Or no way to know?

For the two wire involved accidents that I'm aware of, one died and one ended up completely paralyzed. I'd choose the corn field instead.
 
I think that there are just too many variables to get any kind of meaningful probability on what will happen during a wire strike, other than they're all bad.

I'm personally aware of 3 wire strike incidents. Interestingly enough, none of them started as forced landings.

1- Buzz job over a lake. If memory served, I think it was a C180. Wire went through the canopy & pretty much decapitated the pilot.

2- Simulated engine failure during ppl training in a C152. Instructor & student got too low over a field and hit a smaller gauge wire going to a security light on a post in the middle of the field. Wire hit the spinner and went under the cowling, presumably it was either cut by the prop or broke when it hit the nose gear. Durning the strike It squashed the exhaust stack like stepping on the end of a soup can, which created so much back pressure they couldn't develop enough power to climb and went between a gap in the treeline at the end of the field that was exactly not wide enough to fit a 152 through.

Busted up a wing, bent the tailcone, basically tore off an elevator, and it still flew well enough to land upright, then run though a barbed wire fence and nose over into a hog trough. Both walked away with scratches. However, if that wire had hit on a few inches higher on the spinner, it would have come over the top of the cowl rather than the bottom and could easily have had the same result as #1.

3- Pilot descended over the ocean and tried to skud run back inland to the runway. Landed uneventfully on the runway, dragging part of a power line from the nose gear. No injuries and honestly, not much damage to the airplane as I recall. That one was a Caravan though, and they are built like a brinks truck.

Like I said, they are all bad.
 
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