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Changing Phase 1 test area in a phase 2 plane

T

tthrew

Well Known Member
I am the second owner of a plane that is in Phase 2. The phase 1 test area in my exp./amateur built aircraft op limits (from 2004) is on the other side of the Rockies.

I would like to be proactive and move the test area to my local area, so if I ever want to put my bird back into phase 1, I already have the area defined. Is this a reasonable request? ( My Op Limits have a paragraph in it about reestablishing compliance after a major change and notifying the local FSDO as to the suitability of a test area...) But I am asking for a new test area before making a major change.

How do I go about doing this? Do I just call, or email the local FSDO with the new, proposed, test area I am requesting (use a local test area that others at my airport are already using)?

Do my original OP limits get amended with the new test area, or does this cause new OP limits to be created? If new OP limits are created, does this mean I need to work with a DAR and not FSDO? Does FSDO charge a fee for this - or is this my tax dollars at work?
 
I just did something similar, in conjunction with a tail number change.

Requesting a new phase 1 test area is certainly a reasonable request. The change, and new limitations were issued by the FSDO. A phone call to your loca FSDO is a good place to start.

No charge from the FSDO.
 
I suggest don't do it until you need it. It's a simple process but it's also a big gamble. If you get a competent FDSO inspector it'll go as smooth as it should and they shouldn't change any of your current limitations but if you get an inspector (or 2 or 3 ) that don't know how to do their jobs (getting more frequent now since the people who know are retiring and the FAA can't get good experienced people to replace them), they could screw up your limitations to a point they ground you.

Last year I lost a business opportunity at one point with a GYROPLANE that only needed a N number change. They added to my limitations that the PIC needed to have a private pilot AIRPLANE certificate. Oh and so you don't think it was an isolated incident, they next grounded my RV8 from night flying because they changed my limitations incorrectly and didn't know how to change them back, when all I needed was a N number change on that one too. Took over a year and letters to my senators and the FAA in Washington to correct both issues.

If you don't need to change them leave them alone and if you're going for a N number change PLEASE make sure you compare it WORD FOR WORD with the current one BEFORE you sign it and leave the FSDO.
 
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Just to expand on SPX's answer. The FSDO or a DAR can amend you operating limitations. As stated, there is no charge from the FSDO. A DAR will charge a nominal fee.

The aircraft must have a current Condition Inspection. The clock on the condition inspection does not restart with amended A/W.

You will receive new operating limitations to the latest revision and your new requested test area. You will also receive a new Airworthiness Certificate because the op lims date is also on the A/W.
 
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Mel said:
Just to expand on SPX's answer. The FSDO or a DAR can amend you operating limitations. As stated, there is no charge from the FSDO. A DAR will charge a nominal fee.

The aircraft must have a current Condition Inspection. The clock on the condition inspection does not restart with amended A/W.

You will receive new operating limitations to the latest revision and your new requested test area. You will also receive a new Airworthiness Certificate because the op lims date is also on the A/W.
Click to expand...

I should have gone to a DAR but I didn't do it because during the decades I've been flying my experience up to last year was that the FSDOs had very knowledgeable inspectors, but now I agree with Mel and suggest you should go to the DAR and spend some money but save on the the possibility of a big headache.

DARs have experience that most new FSDO inspectors don't plus they're not in a hurry to get rid of you because, yes they're charging you, but more importantly they have the additional incentive of wanting to give good service because their job depends on good word of mouth and because most are aircraft owners themselves. On top of that you have people like Mel here who freely offers his experience and advice based on his vast experience with RVs on this forum so he'll take the time to do it right the first time.

I say this because I've seen what can happen at a bad FSDO and how I would do it today with what I now know.
 
Pilot135pd said:
I suggest don't do it until you need it. It's a simple process but it's also a big gamble. If you get a competent FDSO inspector it'll go as smooth as it should and they shouldn't change any of your current limitations but if you get an inspector (or 2 or 3 ) that don't know how to do their jobs (getting more frequent now since the people who know are retiring and the FAA can't get good experienced people to replace them), they could screw up your limitations to a point they ground you.

Last year I lost a business opportunity at one point with a GYROPLANE that only needed a N number change. They added to my limitations that the PIC needed to have a private pilot AIRPLANE certificate. Oh and so you don't think it was an isolated incident, they next grounded my RV8 from night flying because they changed my limitations incorrectly and didn't know how to change them back, when all I needed was a N number change on that one too. Took over a year and letters to my senators and the FAA in Washington to correct both issues.

If you don't need to change them leave them alone and if you're going for a N number change PLEASE make sure you compare it WORD FOR WORD with the current one BEFORE you sign it and leave the FSDO.
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I agree, leave well enough alone. You may never need to go back to Phase 1 flight testing, but if you do you will still have to go through pretty much the same process AGAIN to have your ops specs changed. You may get lucky and find a FSDO that knows what there doing regarding experimental aircraft, but then again you may not. Don't unnecessarily open up a can of worms unless you need to.
 
Applying for a new phase I area is a good idea and something that should be encouraged and facilitated by the faa. Unfortunately, the comments warning about potential incompetencies at local fsdos are accurate. I have been through this process twice in the Boston area due to relocating my airplane's home base. Both times I went through the fsdo.
The first time the plane was from out of state. The plane had long ago completed its phase I. I forget why I needed a test area, maybe I just wanted to change the prop or maybe I just wanted to update to a modern version of the operating limitations. At any rate, I contacted the fsdo and within a week or two, I had my new local test flight area and op lims. Although I had to argue that I didn't need a repairman's certificate to change the prop, the whole thing worked as it should have.
The second time I relocated from one corner of the state to another and it was silly to fly to my assigned test area 50 miles away from my new home base. So I delineated and requested a new test area contiguous with my airport. Since the first time went smoothly, I again went through the same Fsdo. What a mistake. By then, there were new people there who knew nothing of experimentals. They insisted on new op lims. Eventually, I relented and said ok. I then received the most ridiculous, confusing, self contradicting 8 page op lims I have ever seen. Furthermore, the new test area was over the ocean, under a low jet path into Logan and so small that I would have had trouble staying within its boundaries. I eventually got it all worked out, but it took 6 months of insistent requests to correct.
If I have to do this again, I will go through a DAR and not directly through the FSDO. it will cost money, but your chances of getting proper results will be more assured.
 
Test area

My experience with the FAA was terrible and still isn?t fixed a year later. Use a DAR. I finally gave up and will asked for forgiveness if I have a problem. To change areas an inspector wanted me to start phase one over even though the airplane had been flying 8 years. He also threatened a violation for every flight for the previous owners.
 
Back in 2015 I got my operation limitations corrected by an inspector at the Orlando FSDO. Paragraph 19 now states:

"After incorporating a major change as described in 14CFR 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with 14CFR 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area."

FWIW: I read the entire document very carefully to make sure everything was acceptable before signing. It was and I did. :D
 
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texdog said:
My experience with the FAA was terrible and still isn?t fixed a year later. Use a DAR. I finally gave up and will asked for forgiveness if I have a problem. To change areas an inspector wanted me to start phase one over even though the airplane had been flying 8 years. He also threatened a violation for every flight for the previous owners.
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Everything is bigger in Texas, specially the egos of the newbie inspectors who don?t have a clue !



GalinHdz said:
Back in 2015 I got my operation limitations corrected by an inspector at the Orlando FSDO. Paragraph 19 now states:

"After incorporating a major change as described in 14CFR 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with 14CFR 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area."

FWIW: I read the entire document very carefully to make sure everything was acceptable before signing. It was and I did. :D
Click to expand...

Back when I lived and flew for a living in Orlando I never had a problem with the FSDO. Back then they were knowledgeable and when they didn?t know something they?d look it up and not waste your time.
 
I have had so much trouble with this stuff I won't even change an N-Number and warn all my friends to not try to do it, especially on EABs. Many seem to not understand the Op Limits are half of the airworthiness and the Airworthiness Certificate is the other half and both are intertwined and inseparable. And the FAA Registry, those visor-laden clerks in charge of N-Number changes, couldn't give a rat's hind end about the airworthiness docs. If all that goes well you can find typos and errors on things like data plates and original documentation that floats to the top in the process. Some egos are big enough to want to change an existing N-Number to a custom N-Number which can trigger these unintended consequences. I have had to undo the goat rope on multiple aircraft (especially EABs) left over from some clueless Type A wanting to change his N-Number to a custom number. Anymore, if somebody insists I divest myself from the process and the airplane.

A new build and N-number reservation, no problem. Go for it. Existing N-Number and registration, be happy with it and don't rock the boat.

Jim
 
I think the consensus is pretty clear after reading these horror stories, don't deal with the Fed`s unless absolutely necessary. Yeah you MIGHT get lucky and find an inspector who knows what he is doing, but more than likely NOT. The DAR`s are there for a reason, the Fed's really don't want to be bothered with the EAB crowd, and don't seem to care to educate their people either.
 
Glad I started this thread

When I first started this thread, I "assumed" (yea, I know... :rolleyes:), I would contact FSDO with my new Phase 1 test area request and they would send me a letter to attach to my existing Op Limitations with the new area. Easy.

My second thought was - if the new test area caused new Op Limits to be generated, this would be easy too (since I already had Op Limits). I "assumed" the FAA had a standard form the FSDO used for Operating Limitations. They would copy/paste the info specific to my plane (tail number, serial number, etc - and the new area for the phase 1 test flights). Maybe new Op Limits would be a good thing, because my existing Op Limits has a paragraph about not flying over congested areas, except for T&L, and I thought I had read the latest Op Limits had removed that.

Now, I understand, it is just not that simple.... and things can go wrong. I will contact a DAR.

Part of owning an experimental is the educational experience. Thank you again for all your feedback.
 
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