What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Any non-gearhead owners on here?

Duncannon

Active Member
Are there any RV owners who not only did not build their airplane, but hire someone to do their maintenance, whether it be routine maintenance, repairing/replacing something that’s not working, ect.

It’s my understanding that experimentals can be considerably less expensive to own than certified aircraft if you perform most of your own maintenance, but you don’t save much if you hire someone to do it for you. I wouldn’t mind this as long as I wasn’t MORE expensive than owning a certified. I can’t imagine buying a used spam can Cessna or Piper when I could buy a good used RV within the same price range ($80k give or take) with the same engine & fuel burn, but with a 50+ kt cruise speed (I imagine I fit right in with everyone else on here :D ).

So would it be a bad idea for someone with know mechanical skills to buy a used RV (presumably a 4,6,7, or 8)? I realize it’s crucial to have someone who is familiar with Vans aircraft to do a pre-buy, and also to make sure there is someone to go to for maintenance who is also familiar.
 
I don't believe I'm a gearhead but rather a techno-head that likes gears and stuff like that.
 
Everything you posted is pretty accurate..Certainly not MORE expensive than certified, unless you happen to buy a lemon or a plane that wasn't built properly.. You can save money by not having to buy "certified" $$$$$ parts. Shop rate is probably going to be the same. You might want to make sure you can find an honest and knowledgeable A&P in your area that is familiar with Van's aircraft who will be working on the airplane once you buy it. Maybe include him/her on the pre-buy inspection.
 
Last edited:
...a couple of thoughts. If you are not comfortable doing your own maintenance, you should not be doing it. That said, you will likely find that you enjoy observing the work in progress, and you may become more comfortable doing some of it on your own. You'll likely make lots of contacts in then experimental "world" through your ownership, who will gladly help you along, and check your work if you end up there. (You found your way to these forums already, which is a great resource to begin with.)

I just got through my first condition inspection since acquiring my RV-7A last year. (You cannot do these as an owner, unless you are in fact the builder too.) It was expensive because I wanted it done with extraordinary attention to detail by someone who knows RVs, and is known to me. I chose someone who maintains some very special aircraft for trusted friends of mine. That very thorough work was intentional because it is my baseline. I wouldn't be surprised if next year's inspection costs far less than half of this one as we learned a lot, and everything is now "right" according to very high standards.

Maintainence aside, you'll find that you generally get a lot more airplane for your dollars when you acquire it, spend about half as much for parts to maintain it, and spend less than half for things you do to make it just the way you like, (and with many more options, too.)

If you find a type in the experimental amateur built world that suits your mission(s), and then you find an example of that type that has been built and maintained to high standards, (and is for sale), you absolutely cannot go wrong if you also find the right people to help you maintain it.

For me, it was a "no brainer" because I fly with a Statement of Demonstrated Ability which requires that I operate aircraft with a hand controlled brake. I have a physical limitation which makes it very difficult to operate a right toe brake. (I had my checkride in a Skyhawk and used the parking brake. Most parking brakes are line lockers, which won't work.) I bought a Liberty XL-2 which is certified with finger brakes, and flew that for seven years... but smashing bugs at 100 knots with the blue side up all the time got tedious. I came to RVs because as EAB aircraft, I didn't need anyone's permission to configure my airplane with real hand brakes. It's fast, efficient, and it'll do more than just get there. As someone once told me, RVs are not the best airplanes at any one thing... but they are the second best airplanes at everything. The culture and volume of the RV community makes it easy to find the answers to all your questions. Just like Skyhawks and Cherokees, someone has already figured out the solutions. Parts are plentiful and knowledge is broad. All you need to do is ask.

Here are my brakes. I can't imagine what they would have cost had I had to get an STC for a certified airplane. As it is, I doubt I have more than $500 into these, including the Matco cylinders and fittings.

doecQoXl.jpg
 
Last edited:
Non Builder

While I did not build my 7A, I did help several friends with a 6, 7A and a 10.
I flew certified aircraft for 20 years (2 Grumman Tigers) and can say for sure Experimental aircraft are much less expensive.
I am an computer network engineer but have been able to do almost anything on my 7A..of course with the help of my friends.

Good Luck!
 

Attachments

  • Front Left Resized.jpg
    Front Left Resized.jpg
    204.7 KB · Views: 254
Are there any RV owners who not only did not build their airplane, but hire someone to do their maintenance, whether it be routine maintenance, repairing/replacing something that’s not working, ect.

It’s my understanding that experimentals can be considerably less expensive to own than certified aircraft if you perform most of your own maintenance, but you don’t save much if you hire someone to do it for you. I wouldn’t mind this as long as I wasn’t MORE expensive than owning a certified. I can’t imagine buying a used spam can Cessna or Piper when I could buy a good used RV within the same price range ($80k give or take) with the same engine & fuel burn, but with a 50+ kt cruise speed (I imagine I fit right in with everyone else on here :D ).

So would it be a bad idea for someone with know mechanical skills to buy a used RV (presumably a 4,6,7, or 8)? I realize it’s crucial to have someone who is familiar with Vans aircraft to do a pre-buy, and also to make sure there is someone to go to for maintenance who is also familiar.

I haven't posted a thing in years, so I'm probably not the best person to welcome you, but...Welcome to VAF.

Personally, as a non-builder but 10 year owner of an RV-6 I'd say you would be better off as a VERY involved owner. It is both a blessing and a curse to know the plane you bought better than you ever thought you could/would, but it is sort of essential, IMO.

At one point an A&P/IA discovered gear leg mount welds cracks on my plane. That isn't all that uncommon in RV6's. I don't recall exactly who I spoke to at Van's while figuring out what needed to be done to address the issue, but I vividly recall that he told me I hadn't simply bought an airplane so much as I had actually adopted a puppy.

I believe every RV is unique, and you, the new owner, really need to be the one who knows about it's care and feeding. After 10 years I'm still finding I have more to learn, but at least I know more than I did when I bought it.
 
Last edited:
Don't have to be a gear head...

...but you do have to be an experimental test pilot. We occasionally forget that here in the EAB community, especially if we purchase a flying airplane and make the jump from the certified world.

RV's are great airplanes, but they are not certified. Differences in quality of construction and rigging aside, you may make an argument that in some regards they are better, but in any case, each one is unique. The quality of Phase 1 testing required varies from airplane to airplane, and there may or may not be good documentation for a particular airframe. Performance and pitot/static calibration testing may, or may not, have been conducted (A 24-month pitot/static check is not the same thing as properly dialing in a pitot/static system in flight). Weight and balance data may or may not be accurate. If the airplane does not have a pilot's handbook (not required by regulation) or complete set of procedures and checklists, you'll have to develop those. If you download a manual from the inter web, it will still need to be adapted to your airplane. IAS from one airplane to another (even the same type) does not translate directly, unlike certified types. Depending on what you buy and the quality of transition training you receive, you may end up running some "new to me" phase 1 testing of your own after you buy one of these great airplanes. The EAA provides some excellent resources to help with that.

All of this is doable and fun if you are willing to put the effort in. We've got a great community here on VAF to help out with flying and maintenance. I bought a flying RV-4 back in 2009, and I'm still learning :)

Come on in, the water's great!

Vac
 
Last edited:
...but you do have to be an experimental test pilot. We occasionally forget that here in the EAB community, especially if we purchase a flying airplane and make the jump from the certified world.

Vac

Hey, Thanks for that, Vac. Excellent points.
 
Last edited:
So would it be a bad idea for someone with know mechanical skills to buy a used RV (presumably a 4,6,7, or 8)? I realize it’s crucial to have someone who is familiar with Vans aircraft to do a pre-buy, and also to make sure there is someone to go to for maintenance who is also familiar.


Not at all….it’s an aircraft that any A&P, if they want, can work on. Stay with Lycoming powered aircraft in this regard.
 
I think what people are trying to say is TNSTAAFL. The reason you are getting an aircraft that can provide much better performance/$ is that there are tradeoffs, mostly in terms of time.

If you are lucky enough to find a good A&P that might also be an RV builder, you're golden. Since you live in the SE, you can hardly swing a cat without hitting an experienced RV builder and A&P. See if you can convince one to be your guy.

If you have to "train" an A&P that does not have EAB experience, that might be a long slog, depending on their interest and willingness to learn.
 
I didn’t build my RV7A, I’m definitely not a gear head, and I do use an A&P every year at inspection time. However, owning the aircraft that I now have has taught me so much about airframe, avionics and power plant maintenance that I cannot over state the enjoyment of ownership.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I did not use a “RV Expert” for my prebuy but had it done by a “qualified” A&P/IA. I found out quickly that his lack of experience with EAB type aircraft encouraged him to “focus” on his comfort zone which was FWF resulting in several airframe build quality issues being ignored.

After I flew the aircraft to it’s new home (and experienced the impact of the build quality issues inflight) the resident A&P there (also not EAB oriented but definitely more observant) spent a lot of time (and my money) addressing the new build quality and other concerns. He encouraged me to become involved in imy aircraft’s maintenance and taught me a lot about the proper way to repair or address an aircraft problem. But man did I pay for this education! My annual condition inspection bill was never less than $2,000 and saw a few repair bills significantly higher ($5,000+).

It’s amazing how money can motivate your personal involvement! I now do most of my own maintenance and even aircraft upgrades. I have an A&P friend who is intimately familiar with EAB aircraft (he’s built three and assisted with several other builds) and together we accomplish the annual condition inspection. My last one cost less than $500 (including supplies and a few parts). I believe the aircraft is now in the best condition it’s ever been in.

I’m now finishing up a major avionics upgrade with the replacement of my EFIS units. But I’ve also (doing the work myself) converted from manual to electric trim and replaced my original stick grips for military style grips with six multi-function switches; swapped out my old 330 transponder to the 335 with internal WAAS gps to accommodate the adsb mandate; upgraded my ELT to 406 MHz; replaced my Odessey battery with an EarthX battery which required installation of a new battery box on the firewall; added an auto trim module to my TruTrac autopilot; swapped out the wing tip halogen landing and taxi lights for very bright LED lights; cleaned up wiring connections FWF that weren’t well installed; and a host of other small repairs/upgrades that needed to be done. I still rely on an A&P for most power plant issues but do my own periodic oil changes, lubricants, tire and brake pad replacements, etc. My point being, ownership of an EAB aircraft almost forces you to either become intimately familiar with your aircraft or have very deep pockets.

My original A&P/IA passed away three years ago but the things he taught and showed me allowed my growth as an owner. I’m fortunate in that around my airport there is a culture of assisting one another. Even the new local A&P/IA, the new Avionics shop, and the former paint shop have the attitude that they’ll provide inexpensive assistance when asked knowing that you’ll use them when greater assistance is required. EAB ownership does require more “hands on” involvement but IMHO provides greater total enjoyment. Fly safe!
 
Last edited:
I bought my 8 already built. I don't know squat about maintaining it, so I use a mechanic for virtually everything. He's got his own RV, and works on a lot of other RV's, so he knows his stuff.:cool::cool:

Ah--- I just noticed you're in Georgia. Where in Georgia?? If you like, send me a PM, and I'll give you his name and number if you're interested.
 
Last edited:
There a lot of people who did not build their planes and either have someone do maintenance and take care of their planes or learn throughout the years. What I did when I purchased my plane was to buy a set a plans for my plane, then during the annual conditional inspection I took everything apart that I could with oversight of the mechanic that was going to be "actually doing the inspection". This allowed me to not only learn where everything was, how it's put together, etc. but gave me a better understanding of the overall airplane. So many people, especially in the certified world, just buy a plane and get in it and fly but have no idea if there is any corrosion inside the wing for example or no clue how the plane is rigged. Luckily, you won't find many or any of those types of people but you will find an entire community that is willing to help, teach and mentor. Having an RV is being a part of a family. Enjoy.
 
I commend you on considering your experience when it comes to aircraft maintenance.

Even as an airplane builder I still want a professional mechanic to look over my work every so often as I know I did not train or have day-to-day experience in that field. I built it, and know it more intimately than my A&P, but he knows maintenance to a much higher degree than myself or any other non-pro mechanic knows. My plan is to have a 3rd party do every 2nd or 3rd Condition Inspection on my aircraft to help keep us safe.
 
There is a lot that you can do by yourself on an EAB airplane. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't! However, I would encourage you to at least get involved with the maintenance and start to learn. There is a list of preventative maintenance items that owner/operators can legally do on certified aircraft (FAA has some good guidance here). Knowing how to do things like this will make you a safer pilot and just might save you from being stranded somewhere with a bad sparkplug or flat tire.
I've worked on more than a few aircraft now where the owner needed assistance to get something fixed/modified/repaired. I'm currently working on my A&P rating and have learned quite a bit that I didn't know before.
 
Hi there, I'm you. :)

I bought a flying RV, long distance. On the recommendation of a neutral party near the airplane, I hired a local who was familiar with RVs to do the condition inspection and pre-buy for me.

I'm still waiting for the written report I asked for, multiple times, last October. I've stopped asking for it. And while the gent did, in fact, sign off on the Condition Inspection, there are a number of things I've discovered that I feel should have been mentioned and were not. :(

I've sought - and been granted - a GREAT DEAL of help from this forum and I've learned to do several things that I never thought of doing in the past. I also know my limits, which is why I am about to grit my teeth and throw some money at a mechanic to solve my oil leak problems because I can't seem to sort it all out myself. But I want to be involved in that process, for sure.

I think of it as paying for EAB maintenance lessons. :)

I'd rather fly than build, but I also enjoy wrenching.

I do not enjoy re-cowling my lower. That part sucks. :)

You can do this.
 
I bought my -8 built. I'm an engineer but not a mechanic.

In general it was a good build but I found a few faults with it so I fixed them myself.

This included a poorly installed battery tray. So I made a new one and also arranged it to secure an Odyssey battery. This was my first foray into sheet metal work.

I replaced the fuel pressure sender so that was my first foray into flared fittingss. Learned about thread sealers.

The B-nut on the left tank air vent was totally loose so I learned how to:

Drain tanks safely
Remove the sender plate
Made a tool to help get a wrench on the B-nut after hand tightening.
Use Proseal on the sender plate and re-install.

But it turned out that the left tank was bad so I had a replacement built.

However, I took that opportunity to replace the LEFT-BOTH-RIGHT fuel selector with a LEFT-RIGHT selector, ran new fuel lines from the selector, forward to the aux pump, to the left tank and to an existing line for the right tank. I also made a new mount for the new fuel selector which was more sheet metal work.

This was all new work for me so I learned about selectors, fuel lines, and as I re-designed the selector installation I learned how to alodine, prime and paint aluminum.

I installed a Reiff Turbo-X engine and oil pre-heating system so I learned you could actually epoxy heating pads to an oil sump.

I installed the GDL-82 ADS-B box and ran cables form the antenna to the box and to the transponder so I learned how to select and crimp coax connectors to RG-400. I also cleaned up some of the wiring in the plane though it needs more of that.



So I'm learning as I'm going and doing.

However here is one of the big roadblocks to doing my own stuff that I've run into. This may seem silly to you but....:

I want to be able to replace spark plugs.

To do that you need a torque wrench.

I bought one from Cleaveland - a click wrench.

I've never used it because so far all plug replacements were done by either an A&P or me using the A&P torque wrench while the A&P watched.

So my torque wrench is now several years old, and never used. So I assume it needs to be re-calibrated.

That costs $100 and a trip to the next town over. So it's enough of a pain such that I've never done it.

I know I need to do it, if I want to be able to replace my own plugs. And I even asked the local A&P to let me know when he next brings his wrenches to that place for a re-cal and I'd share the costs. He probably forgot.

It's little stuff like that which can cause hold ups in learning.
 
Last edited:
I didn’t build my RV7A, I’m definitely not a gear head, and I do use an A&P every year at inspection time. However, owning the aircraft that I now have has taught me so much about airframe, avionics and power plant maintenance that I cannot over state the enjoyment of ownership.
I agree 100% with this statement and is the main reason I am glad I bought an experimental airplane.

:cool:
 
Torque wrench calibration..

A few things to consider on torque wrench calibration.. Was the wrench ever technically calibrated? If so it will likely have a calibration sheet included. Many do not. I have two - 1 was certified/calibrated and the other not. Calibration should be traceable to an ISO certified lab and tested over the useful range of the wrench. ISO typically allows +/- 5% on value. All that said, I have not had mine “calibrated” since purchase.
I do self test them periodically. You can look on line for various methods but all should be based on arm length and weight. I have 2 - 25 lb bags of lead shot as well as smaller weights (yep was a diver at one time). Some folks use pull scale (calibrated??) others use an electronic digital adapter (calibrated??). I can clamp a socket in a vice, measure the arm length and the test weight and verify the click/torque. With the 16” arm wrench, I can check up to 800 in-lb.
For my small wrench (12” arm) , I test at 36 in-lb (3# weight) and 120 in-lb. (10#). If gently used with no dropping and setting back to 0 after use, mine typically don’t require adjustment. Not certified, but I am comfortable with the results..
Its kind of like aircraft weight and balance on a small scale 😀
 
Duncan,

Suggest you get in contact with Vic Syracuse of Base Leg Aviation (https://baselegaviation.com/). He literally wrote the book on Van's Aircraft pre-buy inspections, and he is located in Peachtree City, GA and does maintenance as well. I can think of no one better to assist a non-gear head in the purchase and maintenance of an RV.

Cheers,
 
Duncan,

Suggest you get in contact with Vic Syracuse of Base Leg Aviation (https://baselegaviation.com/). He literally wrote the book on Van's Aircraft pre-buy inspections, and he is located in Peachtree City, GA and does maintenance as well. I can think of no one better to assist a non-gear head in the purchase and maintenance of an RV.

Cheers,

I’ll keep him in mind. I’ve actually been to an airshow at that airport.

Thanks everyone for all your replies. I’m still a few years from being able to afford my own aircraft. However, I’m certain I’d like to own an RV. I’m just trying to gain as much knowledge as possible in preparation for when that time comes.
 
Agreed

He's working on mine right now. :)

Duncan,

Suggest you get in contact with Vic Syracuse of Base Leg Aviation (https://baselegaviation.com/). He literally wrote the book on Van's Aircraft pre-buy inspections, and he is located in Peachtree City, GA and does maintenance as well. I can think of no one better to assist a non-gear head in the purchase and maintenance of an RV.

Cheers,
 
Back
Top