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RV-10 Build Order / Panel Installation Question

AlpineYoda

Well Known Member
Patron
I'm working my way through the plans generally in order, and the next two sections coming up for me are the installation of the cabin top / doors and the wings.

I'm working in a shared hangar and my fuselage is resting on furniture dollies and stacks of styrofoam and cardboard. I'm concerned that as I add more weight and size with the top and wings, that this will become rather heavy and could get unbalanced / tip over if someone else hits it. There are a few other planes in this hangar (it's 10,000 square feet), a shared huge air compressor, etc etc. Moving everything around on small casters is getting harder as this gets bigger and heavier.

So, I think it makes sense to install the landing gear prior to the cabin top and wings. Better balance (probably tail heavy, but won't roll over) and easier to move. Yes, it means everything is a bit higher to work on, but I can live with that.

The nose gear attaches to the engine mount, and it looks like it will be easier to rivet all the cowling hinges on BEFORE I attach the engine mount, given that a few rivets in the upper corners of the engine mount are right up against the mounting points. Attaching the hinges commits me to riveting the upper front fuselage in place since they connect the upper fuselage and firewall.

With me so far? Here is the question...

If I'm planning to do an all-glass panel, probably a pre-made panel from a third party, how hard will it be to do all that interior panel work with the upper fuselage in place? There are examples in the plans for how to modify the internal structure for the various components each builder may or may not have, once the panel is planned out. Riveting the upper fuselage in place commits me to doing any of that modification work in place, sitting or laying in the front seat, rather than removing the section and working on a bench.

Is this a big mistake to attach everything now? Will I regret not doing that upper fuselage work outside of the plane? Or can I do all of that with the upper fuselage in place? I'm 5'9" and moderately flexible, so it's not like I cannot crawl/fit under/around the front of the plane as needed.
 
I think you will regret riveting on the top skin before completing avionics work. Do the research. plane can be put on the gear before riveting on that skin and I believe the engine can be hung as well. I think that I needed only two pull rivets due to the mount being on when I riveted the hinges. I could have taken it off to buck, but didn't think it was worth it for 2 MK319's.

Larry
 
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top skin

You can leave it off and it will make things easier, however, remember that whatever you decide to mount in the space between the firewall and sub panel will be essentially inaccessible in the end. If you put the Access Panel kit in, it will give you some access to that area. I installed the access panel kit after the fact. In hindsight, I would have put the access panels in and used the forward face of the subpanel more fully...
 
I think you will regret riveting on the top skin before completing avionics work. Do the research. plane can be put on the gear before riveting on that skin and I believe the engine can be hung as well. I think that I needed only two pull rivets due to the mount being on when I riveted the hinges. I could have taken it off to buck, but didn't think it was worth it for 2 MK319's.

Larry

It looks like 2 or 4 rivets (1 or 2 per side) will be too close to buck with the engine mount attached. I've been pretty religious about bucking where I'm told to buck, rather than using pull rivets, but your comment makes sense. If I only need to pull one per side, that probably isn't the end of the world. Thanks!
 
It looks like 2 or 4 rivets (1 or 2 per side) will be too close to buck with the engine mount attached. I've been pretty religious about bucking where I'm told to buck, rather than using pull rivets, but your comment makes sense. If I only need to pull one per side, that probably isn't the end of the world. Thanks!

Van's has been pretty clear that an MK319BS is almost equal in strength to a traditional rivet and allow substitution for a -3 in most places.

Larry
 
It looks like 2 or 4 rivets (1 or 2 per side) will be too close to buck with the engine mount attached. I've been pretty religious about bucking where I'm told to buck, rather than using pull rivets, but your comment makes sense. If I only need to pull one per side, that probably isn't the end of the world. Thanks!

We riveted the firewall and top skin with all solid rivets after we were on the gear and with the engine mounted. We supported the front of the fuse and using an engine hoist unbolted the mount and pulled it forward far enough to set the rivets. See my Kitlog entry below.

http://www.mykitlog.com/users/displ...&project=2788&category=13394&log=286301&row=3
 
A contrary view

If you are afraid of the fuselage rolling over, you need a better dolly. Make one that can attach to the wing spar stubs. End of rollover problem.
Fitting the cabin top, you’ll have it on, off, on, off,... numerous times. I did it myself down low. If on the gear, I suspect it’s a two person job (or a crane of some sort). I followed the advice of ‘avionics last, or your new airplane will have obsolete avionics’. Installation in the otherwise finished airplane is not so hard, with planing. Do everything you can with the panel removed. Once installed, leave the efis out and work thru its panel hole. Surprisingly little time is needed under the panel, on your back.
 
What Bob Turner said. Exactly. You do not want the fuse on the gear when you’re doing the top/doors/windows. That will cost you far more time than you’ll lose laying on your back under the panel (which is a tiny amount of time).
 
As far as leaving the gear off to keep the fuselage low, I made '2X4 stub gear' with castors on the bottom for the front. I made a plywood box set on a Harbor Freight dolly for the tail (angled to the fuselage bottom, under two formers and with carpet to pad against scratches). This allowed me to move the fuselage around easily and work at floor level.

Ignore the mess in the shop. Here is a photo of the set up;



You will also notice the front and rear upper skins open. I left it this way as long as possible to make installing avionics easy. I made sure I did not block any areas I would need to rivet. I also made sure installations had access from under the panel (i.e. screw locations and directions, open pathways, hinge mounts so all I need to do is pull a pin to detach, etc..) for future maintenance.

I managed to make a custom bucking bar for the 2 rivets behind the engine mount. I trick I found worked well in tight quarters is a piece of foam on the back of the bucking bar to 'push' it forward during the riveting process when my fingers wouldn't fit.
 
Thanks for all the input, everyone. I appreciate the thoughts and comments. If I can manage it, it sounds like the best plan is to shore up the base a little and complete the cabin top, then jack it up onto the gear. The cabin top shouldn't add too much weight or shift the CG too high. The wings are what worries me - I have access to both a crane and forklift to get the landing gear on, but I would still rather put the wings on after the gear.

So, for now, the plan shifts....

1, attach the bottom four hinges, since they are ready and waiting to get done and I might as well just get them out of the way.
2, Complete the cabin top and doors
3, Attach engine mount
4, Attach Landing gear
5, Attach Wings
...
117, Attach upper forward fuselage (and the two 24 inch piano hinges, possibly using a pull rivet or two) once I get all the interior panel stuff sorted.
 
Keep it on the dolly as long as you can

My project sat on a custom made dolly for over 10 years and included putting on the cabin top, doors and wiring. I wish I had done the transparencies and more of the fuselage work prior to putting it on gear. It is so much easier working on when it is low. Sitting on the dolly that long did no damage. It flies great today.
 

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One thing that baffles me as I watch several people on my field build RV-10s is the adherence to the factory instrument panel arrangement. In terms of access it is an atrocity in any case. And even if a considered sequence makes the initial installation easier, in my opinion it is just a matter of time that technology or desired changes have you backwards and upside down making some kind of, and possibly extensive changes, and that is a total PITA!

The solution is to make the panel hinged at the bottom, allowing it to swivel in and down so you can work on it from over the top, as well as access components and wiring mounted further forward. The key requirements are a hinge system at the bottom and a wire routing at the sides that works with the pivot. There are many ways to do this, including hinging individual sections or sub-panels, and including what I did on mine, which is for the hinges as well as the bolt-in-place vertical attachments to be rubber vibration isolators. I have a Kitplanes article in the works for this, but I would encourage anyone doing any home built to consider hinging the panel.

Reinhard Metz
 
My project sat on a custom made dolly for over 10 years and included putting on the cabin top, doors and wiring. I wish I had done the transparencies and more of the fuselage work prior to putting it on gear. It is so much easier working on when it is low. Sitting on the dolly that long did no damage. It flies great today.

I swear, you cannot have the fuselage too low when you're working on that stuff. My "Ladder" dolly probably put the fuselage bottom 8" high. Lower would have been nice, but I didn't know that when I built the dolly.
 
Everyone does things a little different, and no one’s situation is the same. I wasnt lucky enough to have a large space. I COULDNT put my gear on and have the plane fit in my garage. Later on, I had some dollies designed that allowed me to put the gear on, but leave the wheels off and it fit.

I did everything on a dolly, including installing the cabin top, windows, doors, etc. I also installed the top skin. I had no issues with stuff wanting to tip over and had no issues installing my avionics, which are not basic.

Do what you feel works best.
 

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