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'get-down-itis'

rwtalbot

Well Known Member
In an RV “get-down-itis” is at least as dangerous as “get-there-itis”. Most of us figure out early on that it is easy to climb through a very small hole due to power margin. BUT - It turns out to be a lot more difficult to get down through the same size hole with the slippery RV airframe.

Having somehow gotten yourself “on top”, perhaps for no better reason than just to see the sun on a miserable winter day, it’s now time to get down. You pull the power and bank left aggressively to spiral down into the hole. VFR, clear of cloud - nothing to worry about, this is what RVs are made for. The cloud is quite thick and you need at a couple of 360 degree turns to get under it.

At this point your training should kick in, but you are too fixated on maintaining the required flight path and the (dis)comfort of your passenger to realise what is really happening. The hole is too small and without knowing it you have just put the aircraft in a dangerous configuration. If you roll wings level you will be in the cloud. The only thing left to do is pull back on the elevator, whether it’s to reduce airspeed, tighten the turn or just to bail out and climb back on top. Whatever the reason it is exactly the wrong thing to do. Most likely you will get away with it. You might not even realise how close you came to the edge of the envelope. Maybe you break out into a cold sweat.

They say experience is what you get just after you need it. In this case, hopefully someone tells you beforehand (ideally during your transition training)?
 
Around here in fly-over country spring and especially fall (now) there is overcast and many times, broken. Yes it is hard to descend through a hole and I occasionally do use the spiral technique to remain well clear of clouds. No passengers, so 2-3 G's is not an issue. ABDS scan before, listening, are good aids in traffic avoidance. Not typically any casual traffic during these weather days though.

I am not sure what point you wish to make here except, "let's be careful out there" and maintaining SA. Practicing in advance is a good thing. It was done for this situation.

edit:

I suppose the alternative is an IFR clearance, but around here (Class E) Center communication is spotty at 2000ft AGL. In more dense airspace this would not be appropriate.
 
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my guess the point is a warning to the less experienced RVers (and others), and a reminder to the more experienced ones...
I encounter the exact situation a few times a year, and good judgement is needed. A couple of tricks might also help, such as reducing the speed to a minimum before plunging into that elusive hole, increasing RPM on a CSP, etc.

Safety always comes back to the famous 2 bags, one called Luck, the other Experience... never let either one go empty ;)
 
I got good advice from my CFI during transition training. He said to not worry about skimming a cloud on that type of maneuver if things get dicey. He indicated that numerous loss of control situations occur when pilots maneuver too aggressively to avoid cloud incursion. He said that you can have a much worse outcome by losing control avoiding a cloud than flying through a cloud for 5 seconds.

I thought it was good advice. Not advocating that pilots be careless and fly through clouds. Only that if things get ugly, it's better to go through the cloud than end up over VNE in a tight spiral.

Larry
 
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If you pull all the power and slow to 65-70 knots with full flaps, you'll be surprised how steep a down-angle you can make while flying straight ahead.

Better yet - just go get your IFR ticket if you want to play in the clouds. Even if you aren't on an IFR flight plan, the training will save your butt for accidental VFR-into-IMC events like this.
 
Just a reminder, that in 99% of US airspace, ‘clear of cloud’ is not legal. You need 2000’ clearance to do this.

OP was from Australia so maybe different over there; but I agree if you have to do a "couple 360s" to descend below a cloud you're likely not legal in the US.

2000' is on all sides, not to mention you have to never go below 1,000 ft above the cloud nor above 500 ft below the cloud, so you shouldn't be clipping corners either. In other words, if you're staying legal you need a BIG hole (in the US).
 
If you pull all the power and slow to 65-70 knots with full flaps, you'll be surprised how steep a down-angle you can make while flying straight ahead.

I don't know about this. I'm really new to the RV-12 (8 hours), but on my last cross country I was surprised by how slowly I came down. Completely botched my approach to the first airport by 500+ feet. Coming from the Cessna world, it feels like RVs just don't want to leave the sky. :D

(It was a good lesson about approach training.)
 
A 2-3 g spiral into inadvertent IFR requires some serious skill to recover from. At that point you bought yourself at the least an incursion from the rules, and maybe worse. You better be on your A game and hope there's no rock poking up that you didn't notice!

I agree with airguy that slowing and adding drag while descending wings level through the hole is the safest way to tackle this situation. The angle of descent is high and a "go around" climb while cleaning up will allow a turn back if required and escape. SA remains high and disorientation is reduced.

I've lost friends trained by the finest military in the world to low altitude IMC maneuvering night/IMC.

Careful out there!
 
Survival

Legal and survival are two very different scenarios. If entering the clouds is the best survival option just do it.
Something that worked in the Cherokee's from the 140 to the 235: if the CG is within limits close the throttle, slow to flap speed, apply full flaps and full nose up trim. Let go of the yoke and don't touch it until you exit the clouds. Try it in your RV and see if it works.
 
If you pull all the power and slow to 65-70 knots with full flaps, you'll be surprised how steep a down-angle you can make while flying straight ahead.

Better yet - just go get your IFR ticket if you want to play in the clouds. Even if you aren't on an IFR flight plan, the training will save your butt for accidental VFR-into-IMC events like this.

I am IFR rated but not current.

My RV-6 with constant speed prop, can fly a 45-degree down line under redline with a 4,000 FPM descent rate. This is a TEST FLIGHT maneuver that has not been used in real world flying. All parameters are under REDLINE limits. Now a non-pilot PAX is not going to like that maneuver.

Just because Phase I is over does not mean that you cannot go out and explore new non-aerobatic maneuvers outside your test box. IF you purchased your flying RV, going out flying test flight maneuvers over again will help you learn what the airplane can do.
 
I am IFR rated but not current.

I would submit that in this case that is being discussed, that of accidental VFR-into-IMC, currency would not be nearly as critical as basic knowledge of IFR control. Currency will get you down the glideslope in a pretty manner - but the basic knowledge will keep the greasy side down during an accidental IMC encounter without shedding parts off the airplane.

Forget what makes the passengers comfortable in that scenario. Comfort is irrelevant at that point.
 
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I took my commercial pilot flight test so many decades ago (closer to the middle of the last century than the end….), so I don;t know about now, but we had to demonstrate the “steep spiral” maneuver, which I still like to practice today. It’s a descending turn about a point with airspeed held strictly under control, and reasonably low - I guess I use about 90 knots in an RV - so that you are well below losing control, and the spiral is incredibly tight. If I were to be stuck in a situation where my only way down was through a small hole, and IFR was not an option, that would be my choice for keeping airspeed and descent rate under control while staying a small piece of aerial real estate….
 
I took my commercial pilot flight test so many decades ago (closer to the middle of the last century than the end….), so I don;t know about now, but we had to demonstrate the “steep spiral” maneuver, which I still like to practice today. It’s a descending turn about a point with airspeed held strictly under control, and reasonably low - I guess I use about 90 knots in an RV - so that you are well below losing control, and the spiral is incredibly tight. If I were to be stuck in a situation where my only way down was through a small hole, and IFR was not an option, that would be my choice for keeping airspeed and descent rate under control while staying a small piece of aerial real estate….

It is still part of the program Paul, and has even tumbled some efis gyros from the last decade :). I practice it often too. But (as this thread drifts), I certainly wouldn't imagine doing it IMC.
 
In the glory days they used to spin down.

Well they still thought that to me for descending through lentil clouds when getting caught on top while wave flying in gliders. Very stable descend with no chance of breaking the airplane apart. You just have to know that you have enough altitude below the cloud to recover:). They started teaching that due to some accidents with gliders (which at that time had no instrument for IFR whatsoever) climbing in waves before the lentil formed under them and then breaking up trying to fly through it on the way down.

Enough thread drift yet?

Oliver
 
Get Some Itis

Would it be thread drift beyond limits to add Get Some Itis :eek: to the psychological risk group?:D:
 
If you pull all the power and slow to 65-70 knots with full flaps, you'll be surprised how steep a down-angle you can make while flying straight ahead.

Better yet - just go get your IFR ticket if you want to play in the clouds. Even if you aren't on an IFR flight plan, the training will save your butt for accidental VFR-into-IMC events like this.

^^^^ This! IFR ticket is money.
 
If you pull all the power and slow to 65-70 knots with full flaps, you'll be surprised how steep a down-angle you can make while flying straight ahead.

Better yet - just go get your IFR ticket if you want to play in the clouds. Even if you aren't on an IFR flight plan, the training will save your butt for accidental VFR-into-IMC events like this.


Playing with this now, short field landings in prep for Commercial rating call for "manufacturer's published landing speed."or no more than 1.3 VSO. 1.3 VSO comes out to 63knots! It is really a steep angle, and almost like an elevator ride.
 
my guess the point is a warning to the less experienced RVers (and others), and a reminder to the more experienced ones...
I encounter the exact situation a few times a year, and good judgement is needed. A couple of tricks might also help, such as reducing the speed to a minimum before plunging into that elusive hole, increasing RPM on a CSP, etc.

Safety always comes back to the famous 2 bags, one called Luck, the other Experience... never let either one go empty ;)

There are two kinds of luck!

Mike
 
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