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Beware DARs

pierre smith

Well Known Member
Guys, I had a DAR do a prebuy for an interested party and he found rust in my cylinders. Unfortunately, he didn’t say, “thin coating, or insignificant” rust, and it cost me a sale!

It sounds. Like a game changer if it isn’t specified as, “slight” or similar, instead it could sound like a really thick layer, or a massive thickness, if it’s not specified to the buyer. My compressions are all above 75/80 on all cylinders which would not be possible with thick rust deposits, so be careful of who you use.

Regards,
 
How long ago was it flown? I would not think rust would show after a flight. I have seen borascope immages of light reflections that look like all kinds of horrer until you get the angle right.
 
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If it is just light surface corrossion, I suggest that you run the engine before each inspection. This can develop in just a few weeks. A lot of this is light stuff that gets scrapped off when the engine is run.

Larry
 
Per Buy

I completely agree..... Both Lycoming and Continental have addressed this issue and do not give in service limits to cylinder wall wear/corrosion. Their stance is if the compression check is good the cylinder is serviceable.

I would recommend that the next inspection starts off with an engine run prior to any inspections and only borescope for valve issues.
 
Guys, I had a DAR do a prebuy for an interested party and he found rust in my cylinders. Unfortunately, he didn’t say, “thin coating, or insignificant” rust, and it cost me a sale!

It sounds. Like a game changer if it isn’t specified as, “slight” or similar, instead it could sound like a really thick layer, or a massive thickness, if it’s not specified to the buyer. My compressions are all above 75/80 on all cylinders which would not be possible with thick rust deposits, so be careful of who you use.

Regards,

If I could afford a 10 right now I would come down and buy yours...rusty cylinders and all...
 
Pre buy

Although I am a DAR, I did not do this inspection.

Pierre, who paid for the inspection, you or the looker?

Most pilots would ask the inspector if it was minor rust or an engine killer. If the looker did not pursue that he may not be familiar with aircraft engines

If the looker paid for the inspection and the rust was not mentioned there would be an integrity issue.

If you paid for the inspection, don’t you want to know about it?
 
I am a DAR, and I do a lot of pre purchase inspections. I take photos of anything that may be suspect, such as glaze in the cylinders, pitting on valve seats, etc. I give the client a detailed description of what I find, and only offer an opinion if the client wants to know how serious it is, or how much it would cost to repair, etc. Nitrided cylinders will show rust quick quickly, steel takes a bit longer, and chrome or nickel longer yet. I like to work the problem backwards. I ask the client what he thinks the aircraft is worth if all checks out, and then suggest he subtract what needs attention. Usually try to sort out for him or her what is expensive, and what is not.

Regards,

Gary
 
I am a DAR, and I do a lot of pre purchase inspections. I take photos of anything that may be suspect, such as glaze in the cylinders, pitting on valve seats, etc. I give the client a detailed description of what I find, and only offer an opinion if the client wants to know how serious it is, or how much it would cost to repair, etc. Nitrided cylinders will show rust quick quickly, steel takes a bit longer, and chrome or nickel longer yet. I like to work the problem backwards. I ask the client what he thinks the aircraft is worth if all checks out, and then suggest he subtract what needs attention. Usually try to sort out for him or her what is expensive, and what is not.

Regards,

Gary
Hi Gary,....now that sounds
very fair, to both buyer and seller. Thanks for the input.
Regards,
 
The bank

If I could afford a 10 right now I would come down and buy yours...rusty cylinders and all...

Hi Colin, all my airplanes were financed at my local bank, including an Air Tractor for $350,000 on a ten year note. (That’ll give you some sleepless nights!)

Talk to your bank about the RV-10...they might surprise you.

Regards,
 
Other options.

AOPA Finance
Pilot Bank in Tampa (guy who bought my Mooney got financed through them)
 
Hmmm. Beware DAR's???

Anyone doing a pre-purchase examination should feel obligated to inform the purchaser of all findings. Then the next phase is usually a discussion with the purchaser to help them make a decision.

Usually, it is not just one item that is a sale-breaker, but sometimes pointing to one item is way out for the purchaser. Sometimes those can be difficult conversations with the seller, who may not like to hear anything negative about his/her airplane. We can all understand that.

If the seller pays for the prebuy, then they are entitled to the report. IF the purchaser paid for the prebuy, they aren't always willing to give the entire report to the seller if they are walking away, as now the seller has a report to help them fix everything, at no cost to them. I've been taken to task for that, and rightly so. In one case, the seller walked away, and the plane was then advertised as "prebuy already done by Vic Syracuse, and all items fixed." Quite candidly, that is a little misleading, as we really don't know the quality fo the repairs.

Most sales actually go through, with the purchaser usually negotiating for compensation in price, or asking the seller to fix things. At least that is what I am seeing in the prebuys that I am involved with.

This is supposed to be a good thing for both parties, albeit some sellers are forced to sell for reasons beyond their control, so it is not always an all-around happy time.

I like being involved in these as more often than not (about 70%) of the deals go through, and everyone is happy. That's the way it is supposed to be. But not every airplane for sale out there is not always right for every buyer. Some take time. Some find out the airplane needs works, and that's not what they want. More and more buyers are coming from the certified world to our community, and they want an airplane they can just go fly and not have to tinker with. Others are OK with a project or one that needs tinkering. Those conversations should be had in the initial phone calls between the 2 parties.

Just my thoughts. :)

Vic
 
It's possible buyer was told it was minor rust, but just had cold feet in general and used the minor rust as his "get out of jail free" card.

While not entirely the same, I had a similar thing happen on a home inspection. The buyers completely backed out of a $300,000+ home purchase, over what my realtor called a "pretty clean" inspection report. Buyer's weren't even interested in talking discount or requesting repairs; reading between the lines they just had second thoughts on the purchase and used the inspection to get out of it...
 
I've seen the scenario Chris describes play out many times. My brother has been a real estate agent for almost 30 years and sees people use the inspection clause as an opportunity to either renegotiate the purchase price or bail altogether.

Whenever I sell airplanes, I tell the buyer that they're welcome to do a pre-buy, but the sole purpose is to determine if they want to buy it at the price I'm asking. It's perfectly reasonable for a buyer to want to know exactly what they're getting, but I usually have a very good grasp on what I'm selling and the asking price reflects that.

The one exception I've made to my "no negotiation" policy is when the pre-buy turned up an issue that I (and the actual inspector) should have caught on my Citabria annual. I flat out told the buyer that I was embarrassed that I missed it and that the issue would be remedied immediately.

I had one buyer walk on the purchase of this same Citabria because one of the cylinders showed 69/80 and the other three were mid-70's. He wanted an allowance for a top overhaul. Nope... other fish in the sea.
 
If the seller pays for the prebuy, then they are entitled to the report. IF the purchaser paid for the prebuy, they aren't always willing to give the entire report to the seller if they are walking away, as now the seller has a report to help them fix everything, at no cost to them.

They have a cost. They probably held the airplane while waiting for the prebuy to take place, allowed their pride and joy to be dismantled, and likely spent a fair bit of time in the process. There is also an emotional investment for most folks, something never to be discounted.

A buyer who won't allow you to share the written results, or stand with you in the hangar while you personally explain your findings to the owner, is pretty much identifying themselves as a large round pink hole.

And anyway, most of the issues are arguably safety problems.

I'd recommend a policy of always sharing your results with both parties. You're not going to lose any buyer business if it's an up-front standard, and it will eliminate issues like Pierre's.
 
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They have a cost. They probably held the airplane while waiting for the prebuy to take place, allowed their pride and joy to be dismantled, and likely spent a fair bit of time in the process. There is also an emotional investment for most folks, something never to be discounted.

A buyer who won't allow you to share the written results, or stand with you in the hangar while you personally explain your findings to the owner, is pretty much identifying themselves as a large round pink hole.

And anyway, most of the issues are arguably safety problems.

I'd recommend a policy of always sharing your results with both parties. You're not going to lose any buyer business if it's an up-front standard, and it will eliminate issues like Pierre's.


I always do that when both parties are present. :)
It's not fair to the buyer when they are not present and there is a large list of findings and a high probability that they are going to walk away. That just gives the seller a free inspection. That's not cool.
If it's a safety issue I do let the owner know. :)


Vic
 
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That just gives the seller a free inspection. That's not cool.
Vic

As Dan mentions, its not really free for the seller. Maybe with this knowledge, sellers will take a more diligent role in only allowing pre-buys from providers with fair practices.

Sellers should consider the pre-buy process when making decisions to "take their plane off the market." Remember, this goes both ways. If we always treat the sellers this way, it will come around in kind. Eventually, you will show up for the pre-buy and find it was sold to someone else. Following these guidelines, they're not really obligated to share that with the buyer (information sharing is typically a two way street). Obviously this doesn't apply if a non-refundable deposit was made and that is a fair remuneration.

Sellers would be wise to negotiate this kind of stuff before the pre-buy. Many good lessons for sellers in this thread.

Larry
 
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Not being critical Vic. I sincerely believe 100% disclosure to all parties would be beneficial to you. The long term goal is to always have both parties singing your praises when the job is done.

Remember, I've been subject to the automotive equivalent of a pre-buy nearly every day for 35 years, as either buyer or seller. It develops a lot of empathy for both.
 
DARs

Just a question.......if the seller doesn't get briefed on what the report details, how do they know the items being "negotiated" by the buyer are even legit. Example: The DAR hands the buyer a report saying the airplane is near perfect. The seller is not privy to this information. The buyer then brings up "issues" and uses this to try to negotiate the price.

Not being overly suspicious but there are thousands of dollars at stake on these RV sales. Am I missing something?
 
OK. sorry I even jumped in on this one. First, I never try to hide anything. If the seller is there they are aware of the findings. They just don't get the printed report. They haven't paid for it.

Just like buying a house. The seller only gets the list of negotiable items if the buyer elects to purchase the house.

Yes, this is my business, and I think I do pretty fair job at it with all parties. Nobody likes to hear the of things wrong with their airplane. I get it. But good inspectors are going to find things. That's the purpose of the examination.

Purchasers who are moving forward give the list right away to the seller so things can be fixed or negotiated. That's the way it works.

Keep in mind that some of these prebuys are expensive, with 4-5 hours of travel costs, and sometimes commercial travel as well. The purchaser has paid for that.

My last input on this.

Vic
 
Opinions vs your income source

Vic, thanks for jumping in on this. You brought a great perspective to the discussion. This is one of the reasons I follow this site closely.

Of course all are welcome to their opinions. I agree with the earlier post that there are some good learnings for a seller in this thread. Pre-buys should could be a negotiation consideration, before they happen. This negotiation is between the buyer and the seller, not the company providing the pre-buy service for their client.
 
Thanks for the clarification. I've bought and sold many airplanes through the years and I guess I've just been very fortunate. Both parties, in my deals that were successful, have always been completely open and the communications have been excellent. That includes a deal several years back where Vic was involved in a pre-purchase for a overseas buyer.
Previous thread writer is correct. Both the buyer and the seller need to agree, in writing, beforehand on how a pre-purchase inspection and the report will be handled. This should include exactly what is expected from the seller and the same from the buyer.
 
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