What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Anyone have Success using liquid treatments for Stuck Rings

lr172

Well Known Member
On this last CI, my compressions have dropped to 65/70/65/72 on my 320 (850 hours). Last year they were all around 72. All the air is coming out past the rings and have a suspicion that the rings lands may have excessive carbon build up and sticking a bit. I am considering pull the jugs to hone an re-ring, but I hate getting all the baffling off and back on. I know in the auto world many have had success un-sticking rings with ATF, Seafoam, etc. However, they have vertical cylinders where gravity will take the liquid to the ring area.

Has anyone ever had success using methods like these to unstick rings?

Larry
 
My results so far

My oil consumption had increased from 1qrt/15 hrs to 1qrt/7 hrs (Tach). I was also seeing an increase of carbon in my sump screen and spin on filter. In May, I used Mike Busch’s formula and procedure. I did the process 4 times on each cylinder. Solvent was dark and had sediment in it. I was waiting until I got to my 30 T hr oil change before posting my results (engine is at 19 T hrs on oil now). But, so far, results are promising, I have not added any oil, level has dropped about 1.25 quart (7 qrt, new filter at oil change). It appears oil consumption is back to 1qrt in 15 hrs.
Larry- reason I did solvent flush was oil consumption, my compression tests were ok, all in the 70s/80 (before flush). After the flush, I noticed (cold), on 3 cylinders compression increased, #2 decreased a few lbs. When I do my oil change, I was also going to do another compression check on #2. I could hear, #2 was leaking past the rings.
 
Last edited:
I have helped perform/witnessed the effects of the Camguard Engineers flush procedure. It was very positive for at least a year; owner moved away. Attached in post 7 here:

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=205666&highlight=flush

Probably the original and probably the same as the previous attachment. I truly like/trust the Camguard engineers. Very good about supporting their positions with engineering basis/positions.

Anyway, keep us informed of results. More data points = better. This is truly a "can't hurt to try" situation as long as it's done correctly. Good luck
 
I had researched Mikes method, but it seemed it was designed for plugging of the drain holes in the oil ring lands by sludge and was geared more towards freeing up those holes and addressing an oil burn problem due to it. Mine is purely compression related (no excessive oil consumption or oilly plugs) and it didn't seem like the method would be effective in breaking down carbon in the compression ring lands. Seems most have to soak with seafoam or ATF for days to get things to loosen up. I may try it, but don't have high confidence. That said, maybe filling the cyl with ATF and compressing it via his method and leaving it there may give me the contact time I need to soften up the carbon.

Larry
 
Last edited:
Oil of Snake or...?

Not a Lycoming tale, but I look after a DeHavilland DH60M Gipsy Moth for a friend. It has the original Gipsy II upside right, 4-cylinder engine. After about, oh, 100 hours or so, it started oil fouling the #4 left side sparking plug. Just the left side, weird, right? Caused mag check problems with several incidents of taxiing back after the pre-takeoff mag check. I'd change the plug and away it went, only to have the same problem next flight. I'm pretty sure there was a stuck oil control ring since the compression during hand propping felt fine. Please understand I'm pretty sceptical of using chemical solutions for mechanical problems, but with naught to lose, I added Marvel Mystery Oil in the amount called out on the can. After about 3 or 4 flights, the problem seems solved. I know, I know, and I've heard Mike Busch's podcast about the stuff, and it might just be coincidence, but I APPARENTLY had some success with it. Had that failed, my next move would have been to do the piston flush thing. Last resort, of course I'd have to pull the cylinder.
 
This is an old air cooled VW trick and it does make a big difference. I use MMO. First screw in old junk plugs in the bottoms. I first do one pass with mineral spirits to flush the oil out. Then 2nd pass with MMO back into another can via a funnel with a coffee filter to catch the carbon bits. I save the MMO for reuse for this purpose. Have done this process using the Savvy concoction and it works as well as far as I can tell. On stubborn cylinders (ones that resist the flow as you turn the prop) leave the cylinder full overnight to soak. Use a funnel with a clear hose to fill the cylinders.
 
This is an old air cooled VW trick and it does make a big difference. I use MMO. First screw in old junk plugs in the bottoms. I first do one pass with mineral spirits to flush the oil out. Then 2nd pass with MMO back into another can via a funnel with a coffee filter to catch the carbon bits. I save the MMO for reuse for this purpose. Have done this process using the Savvy concoction and it works as well as far as I can tell. On stubborn cylinders (ones that resist the flow as you turn the prop) leave the cylinder full overnight to soak. Use a funnel with a clear hose to fill the cylinders.

Are you doing this like Mike suggests, where the fluid is pushing past the rings and into the oil pan? I wasn't sure based upon your comment of catching it via a hose and funnel. Also, did this approach provide success for stuck compression rings or just the oil ring?

Larry
 
Thanks to all for sharing your experiences here. Sounds like I will give this approach a try and see if it helps. Certainly nothing to lose.

Larry
 
Are you doing this like Mike suggests, where the fluid is pushing past the rings and into the oil pan? I wasn't sure based upon your comment of catching it via a hose and funnel. Also, did this approach provide success for stuck compression rings or just the oil ring?

Larry

Yes. Leave the oil drain open and let it drain right into the funnel/filter/gallon can. I use a small funnel and clear hose to transfer from the gallon can into the cylinder.
 
On this last CI, my compressions have dropped to 65/70/65/72 on my 320 (850 hours). Last year they were all around 72.


I'd run it another 10 hours and test again. In my (limited) experience, and reading, the variance in sequential compression tests is larger than the 2-7 lbs seen here -- even with the same equipment and operator. See for example Figure 2 on page 2 of this article (TCM data as quoted by Mike Busch).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-context.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1rjfQM-ADbcncB8YqMxJot


YMMV, but I wouldn't worry (yet) about one-off readings like yours.
Peter
 
We used to use marvel mystery oil. Put it into the cyclinder and let it soak for a couple three days or longer. Then put it in with the oil changes. You can also put it in with the fuel as recomended in directions. Change to phillips xcountry oil and you will never have this problem again. Shell aeroshell has carbon in it and thats what is gumming up your rings and the rest of the motor. Also when you change a cylinder you dont have to change oil to mineral for break in with phillps xcountry.
 
I just performed the Savvy procedure a couple of months ago on my 540. It had started burning a qt. every 7 hours. Phillips 20w-50. I was able to get the solution through the front 4 cylinders, but #3 and#6 required all my weight on the prop to get it to flush through. I flushed them 3 times, but it still did not "free up" like the others.
My results are a little encouraging. After changing the oil, I have now accumulated 25 hours and burned 2.5 qts, or a qt every 10 hours. I am going to try leaving the solution overnight at next oil change and see if that improves at all.
There is no doubt that the return holes are clogged up with carbon. It seems that we really need something better at dissolving the carbon than the mixture in the Savvy solution. Anyone have a suggestion on a more caustic solution for dissolving carbon?
 
I'd run it another 10 hours and test again. In my (limited) experience, and reading, the variance in sequential compression tests is larger than the 2-7 lbs seen here -- even with the same equipment and operator. See for example Figure 2 on page 2 of this article (TCM data as quoted by Mike Busch).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-context.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1rjfQM-ADbcncB8YqMxJot


YMMV, but I wouldn't worry (yet) about one-off readings like yours.
Peter

year after year they have been consistent, though with a slight downward trend. I have a lot of engine experience and don't believe that this years changes were due to reading errors. I do not believe that 65 is a death blow and have suspicions that it is simply too much carbon in the compression ring lands that is preventing complete seating and therefore potentially addressable.
 
I just performed the Savvy procedure a couple of months ago on my 540. It had started burning a qt. every 7 hours. Phillips 20w-50. I was able to get the solution through the front 4 cylinders, but #3 and#6 required all my weight on the prop to get it to flush through. I flushed them 3 times, but it still did not "free up" like the others.
My results are a little encouraging. After changing the oil, I have now accumulated 25 hours and burned 2.5 qts, or a qt every 10 hours. I am going to try leaving the solution overnight at next oil change and see if that improves at all.
There is no doubt that the return holes are clogged up with carbon. It seems that we really need something better at dissolving the carbon than the mixture in the Savvy solution. Anyone have a suggestion on a more caustic solution for dissolving carbon?

There is some nasty stuff out there but requires serious rinsing, but most seem to believe that Hopps #9 is the best, moderately safe, alternative out there for softening carbon and I have used it to remove carbon during engine tear downs.. However, I am not willing to run that through the engine assembled. That stuff is made for steel (gun barrels) so need to exercise caution when using near aluminum as it is MUCH more vulerable. An old trick I learned for determining if metal found in the oil filter was steel or aluminum is to put the fragment in muriatic acid. It doesn't touch the steel, but makes the aluminum fizz and then vanish. I find that the surface tension makes the alum stick to the magnet even though it is not ferrous.

Larry
 
Last edited:
larry, i did the ring flush per mike busch and had good results on increasing comps and reducing oil consumption. good luck.
 
larry, i did the ring flush per mike busch and had good results on increasing comps and reducing oil consumption. good luck.

Good to hear. I plan to start this process today and will do compression tests again this winter to see if it helped. Will report results then.

Larry
 
I did the Mike Busch procedure about a month ago. It flushed a lot of black residue out and seems to have helped with oil consumption, but I've not put enough time on it to quantify.

One suggestion, pay attention to what you're doing closely. Don't let the airport bums and talkers distract you while you're working the flush. I filled one cylinder - got sidetracked in a useless conversation and forgot to put the plug back in the top - then smartly pulled the prop toward TDC and spewed mineral spirits, oil and xylene all over me, the plane and the hangar. :(
 
Last edited:
I'd run it another 10 hours and test again. In my (limited) experience, and reading, the variance in sequential compression tests is larger than the 2-7 lbs seen here -- even with the same equipment and operator. See for example Figure 2 on page 2 of this article (TCM data as quoted by Mike Busch).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-context.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1rjfQM-ADbcncB8YqMxJot


YMMV, but I wouldn't worry (yet) about one-off readings like yours.
Peter

I have the same experience as lr172...compressions this year were exactly the same as last except for one was 1 psi less
 
Well I did the flush yesterday with a few tweaks. I used the link someone provided earlier from the camgaurd guys. For some reason Mike left out the MEK, which I used. I also decided to use ATF instead of w100, as ATF has way more detergents to break down residue and figured it would add benefit over oil. It was a mess. Apparently had enough issues that three exhaust valves allowed moderate leakage of the fluid. No surprise that each of the cylinders allowed the fluid through as I did not have oil burn issues and didn't suspect any plugged oil drain holes. Will let everyone know what it did to the compression once I put a few hours on it.

For others doing this, be sure to check the engine angle. On the 6A, it sits on the ground almost 5* nose up. I pulled the finger strainer and a pretty good amount of fluid came out. You would not want that much dilution once you re fill the sump.

Larry
 
Last edited:
Sounds like you also need to try the lapping in place of the exhaust valves. Last annual I had one with splotchy lead buildup on the seat. Compression was still OK, but down from prior test. Did the job (first ever for me) and raised compression.
 
......be sure to check the engine angle. On the 6A, it sits on the ground almost 5* nose up........

Yep, definitely important to check engine angle before starting the messy part. On my fwd-induction engine, the oil drain plugs are at the front of the sump, so if I were doing this, I'd raise the tail such that the front of the engine is slightly lower than the rear.
 
All very interesting stuff, thanks for the feedback Larry.

I've now flown >1'000 hrs behind my 1'400 since overhaul O-360. And since I've logged the data, the spreadsheet demonstrates nicely the variations in compression, taken every 100h.
Of note, these have all been performed with the engine warmed up.
A common lowering of the values can be taken as a sign of wear, and is a normal trend. And I also know that on this engine the leaks are thru the exhaust valves = approaching my minima of 60 will see some in situ lapping action :)
 

Attachments

  • Comp.png
    Comp.png
    344.9 KB · Views: 180
Sounds like you also need to try the lapping in place of the exhaust valves. Last annual I had one with splotchy lead buildup on the seat. Compression was still OK, but down from prior test. Did the job (first ever for me) and raised compression.

Agreed, that will be my next step though I don't think the leakage is too bad. Due to all the solvents, the lquid is very thin And I put a LOT pressure on the prop. Enough that I was even leaking fluid out through the sparkplug threads. So, I think the leakage past the exh valves is minor, though I am sure there is some crud fouling the seal. One of the cylinders only leaked on the first pass. Subsequent passes did not, imply the solvent flush is helping things.

Lary
 
Savy ring flush

OK I'll chime in.
I have an RV-6A parallel valve 0-360 converted with SDS to IO-360 with fuel and ignition with 525 hours.
Oil consumption at 1-6 on channel chrome cylinders. Phillips 20x50 XP
Thought I'd do Mike's flush to see if it would help. Couldn't hurt.
1,and 4 flushed OK, #2 flushed, But, slowly. """3 wouldn't budge.""" I mean the prop wouldn't turn with my 200 pounds hanging on it.
I did it 3 times no joy.
Put plugs and oil back in, flew it like I stole it for 8 hours. Came back, flushed again, WaaLaa!!!!!!!!!!! #2 flushed a bit better and I was able to move the prop SLOWLY on #3.
Repeated process 10 hours later. I get better movement on #3, But, still not like the rest.
DID it help?? Oil consumption didn't go up and I think it went down to 1-8
Next oil change I'm going to repeat and see if it will help more.
I wondered how the engine would start after the flush. It fired up right now and had no problems running.
I was initially concerned about the solvents causing a problem, But remembered back 50 years ago as a car mechanic we actually used to put straight paint thinner in the old big block Fords and fire them up and run them for a few minutes to flush out the crud in the lifters.
Worked fine, never blew an engine up and it cleared up the lifter hang up problems.
My luck varies with time Art
 
In the 2-stroke world, Seafoam is used regularly for carbon control. Every 50 hrs it was encouraged to be flushed out of the rings as regular maintenance.
 
Back
Top