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Introducing the RV-15!

I am smiling . . . .

See the other threads as well as Doug's smug mug link.

https://dougreeves.smugmug.com/RV-15-Engineering-Prototype/

Gotta say, I like the tips etc that are CAD designed and printed. We will have some accurate glass! And that is not an oxymoron. Interesting mix of pull/driven rivets. Will be interesting to see what changes. The Vans team has my hardy congratulations for the progress so far, and best wishes for the program.
 
Wow, what a design...hopefully I'm not too old to start building the -15. Wish there was a waiting list ;)
 
So after reading Paul Dye’s article I see that it is a bigger airplane than i imagined at 35 ft span. It is squarely in the 2+2 category. A bit over 2000 lbs gross weight. Interesting to see 3d printed fairings. One way to get it in the air quickly. The stick on baggage door reminds me of bugs bunny’s portable hole. Other details of interest between Doug’s excellent photo study and the kit planes article is that the stabilator has a trim tab and what they are calling an anti servo tab on the other side. There is also a t-strip on the rest of the TE. These are typically used to tweak pitch feel forces (increasing hinge moments) so it seems they are working on having good handlinq qualities, something that is lacking in some of the competitors in this market segment. Also mostly all pull rivets but they have not committed either way for the final kit. One expects most previous vans offenders to push for solid rivets. It looks like an amazing airplane. They hit this one out of the park.
 

I am just a little bit bummed by the cargo door as depicted. I was hoping for a full-size door on one side in the bay immediately behind the pilot access door. Kinda like what you see on many pickup trucks nowadays. I'd like to be able to open the door and stuff bikes in.

I'm sure there are serious structural consequences. The door frame is already going to be a beast to have the crew doors nice and big. Having two doors right next to each other would certainly compound the problem, but I think it would be worth the extra weight and trouble.
 
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Stabilator

The "Gurney Flap" on the stabilator looks way too tall. There is a NASA paper from about 1989 on the proper size. I think I still have a copy from my car racing days. A larger than desired Gurney Flap causes a large increase in drag, without a substantial increase in pitching moment or "lift", so it does no good. Also, the Gurney Flap's main purpose is to keep the lower surface flow attached all the way to the trailing edge; I am guessing this improves elevator feel.

From my experience, I would guess it should be no more than 1/8" tall.I am not there to measure it so it is hard to tell exactly how tall it really is. JMHO. YMMV
 
Pulled Rivets

Real bush planes have pulled rivets or at least universal head bumps everywhere!

Cue the Beaver...!!!

I'm guessing a mix of regular pop, cherrymax and universal head?

Y'all wanna build another -8/9/10/14 or a real bush plane??!!

Come on now!

Besides the pulled method will knock a year off construction I'll bet. My kids and I built the RV12 wings in 3-4 weeks!
 
Real bush planes have pulled rivets or at least universal head bumps everywhere!

Cue the Beaver...!!!

I'm guessing a mix of regular pop, cherrymax and universal head?

Y'all wanna build another -8/9/10/14 or a real bush plane??!!

Come on now!

Besides the pulled method will knock a year off construction I'll bet. My kids and I built the RV12 wings in 3-4 weeks!
Is it possible they used pulled rivets to simplify and speed up construction of the engineering prototype?
 
The "Gurney Flap" on the stabilator looks way too tall. There is a NASA paper from about 1989 on the proper size. I think I still have a copy from my car racing days. A larger than desired Gurney Flap causes a large increase in drag, without a substantial increase in pitching moment or "lift", so it does no good. Also, the Gurney Flap's main purpose is to keep the lower surface flow attached all the way to the trailing edge; I am guessing this improves elevator feel.

From my experience, I would guess it should be no more than 1/8" tall.I am not there to measure it so it is hard to tell exactly how tall it really is. JMHO. YMMV

I don’t think it’s a gurney flap. It sticks out of the top and bottom equally. I think it is what we called a bead at Learjet and it is there to increase hinge moments to either increase stick force or to help centering/trim. I can’t see why one would put a gurney flap on a stabilator.
 
Anyone hear any ballpark estimates on kit cost? As cool as it looks, I fear, based on its size, that this will be at least as expensive as the -10 and will price the vast majority of us out. Hoping I’m wrong though.
 
I am just a little bit bummed by the cargo door as depicted. I was hoping for a full-size door on one side in the bay immediately behind the pilot access door. Kinda like what you see on many pickup trucks nowadays. I'd like to be able to open the door and stuff bikes in.

I'm sure there are serious structural consequences. The door frame is already going to be a beast to have the crew doors nice and big. Having two doors right next to each other would certainly compound the problem, but I think it would be worth the extra weight and trouble.

Here is a link to an interview with Rian Johnson from Flyer Magazine (U.K. magazine).

https://youtu.be/eeQi6kAf9a8

There is an interesting segment on the design philosophy for the seating, baggage, door access, full size mountain bike loading through the doors and integrating a gust lock into the seat by means of a cut out in the seat cushion and a seat slide forward mechanism that locks the seat cushion around the controls and provides extra space for access behind the seat.

It looks like the presentations on Tuesday are going to be really interesting. I just hope they are going to be recorded and made available for those of us not able to get to OshKosh!
 
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Does that flap handle concern anyone else? That could get ugly in a crash. I love the placement for normal ops- just wouldn’t want it there in a crash situation.
 
Here is a link to an interview with Rian Johnson from Flyer Magazine (U.K. magazine).

https://youtu.be/eeQi6kAf9a8

Really interesting interview. Was struck by how this is still very much an engineering test bed rather than the finished design, talking about changing wingspan, flap size, fuselage length. Lots of work to do and resources required before producing the finished kit by the sounds of it.

Great to get so much insight into the designers thought processes.
 
Wow, more than I expected! As an older builder I for one am hoping for pull rivets. Building goes much faster ala RV-12.

Well done Van's!!! All I can say is WOW!

Thanks for the article Paul and all the pictures Doug (and hopefully everyone else!).


Bob
 
Anyone hear any ballpark estimates on kit cost? As cool as it looks, I fear, based on its size, that this will be at least as expensive as the -10 and will price the vast majority of us out. Hoping I’m wrong though.

we won't know for a while, but I'd guess somewhere between the -14 (~$45k for all kits) and the -10 (~61k), my guess is around $55k.

I for one am glad to see they went with the 360/390, as that is a HUGE cost savings vs the 540 in the -10, also the different missions likely means most will be spending less on the panel as well.

I expect average -15s will be significantly less costly to build than the average -10s overall.
 
Really interesting interview. Was struck by how this is still very much an engineering test bed rather than the finished design, talking about changing wingspan, flap size, fuselage length. Lots of work to do and resources required before producing the finished kit by the sounds of it.

Great to get so much insight into the designers thought processes.

I was also surprised to hear at the end of the interview that kits would be available in 12-18 months. I'm interested in floats, so it was nice to hear Rian Johnson is also interested in floats. Perhaps it's more likely we will see float attach points included in the standard kit/build.
 
Originally Posted by alpinelakespilot2000 View Post
Anyone hear any ballpark estimates on kit cost? As cool as it looks, I fear, based on its size, that this will be at least as expensive as the -10 and will price the vast majority of us out. Hoping I’m wrong though.

Van's has always been the leader in kit aircraft value..... I expect Van's will be able to beat the finished price of a Kitfox. This is his biggest competitor in this category.

As you can see, there are pluses on both sides and both company's will do well, but Van's will again provide the best BANG for the buck.......
 
I was also surprised to hear at the end of the interview that kits would be available in 12-18 months. I'm interested in floats, so it was nice to hear Rian Johnson is also interested in floats. Perhaps it's more likely we will see float attach points included in the standard kit/build.

They mentioned a bigger rudder for the float one possibly, based on the value difference of factory float kit vs non float kit Cessna products I’d suggest anyone building an RV 15 do all the float mods during the build
 
Future Updates

I'm surprised Vans was able to be so tight-lipped about RV-15 development status over the past year. However, now that the cat's out of the bag, hopefully they'll be more forthcoming with updates on test status and final configuration. Really looking forward to hearing about cruise speed, fuel tank capacity/location, final dimensions (I have a small garage) and rivet options. I'd hate to have to wait until OSH 2023 for answers to those questions.
 
I'm surprised Vans was able to be so tight-lipped about RV-15 development status over the past year. However, now that the cat's out of the bag, hopefully they'll be more forthcoming with updates on test status and final configuration. Really looking forward to hearing about cruise speed, fuel tank capacity/location, final dimensions (I have a small garage) and rivet options. I'd hate to have to wait until OSH 2023 for answers to those questions.

You kind of fill in some of the blanks of where things stand by the videos at the bottom of Dougs growing RV-15 pics link.

I believe they saw 140 knots on the way out with no fairings at all, they have 48 gallons now looking around 50 and maybe more optional, rivet options sound like anyway you like it. Some will definitely be driven, but most appear to be your choice between pull or dimple and drive.

Also check out the link to the UK Flyer interview with Rian. There is lots of great info there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQi6kAf9a8 and not to be remiss, Paul's Kitplanes article @ https://www.kitplanes.com/vans-rv-15-on-top/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=KITPLANES+Weekly&utm_campaign=KP+Weekly+2022%2F07%2F26

Bob
 
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Originally Posted by alpinelakespilot2000 View Post
Anyone hear any ballpark estimates on kit cost? As cool as it looks, I fear, based on its size, that this will be at least as expensive as the -10 and will price the vast majority of us out. Hoping I’m wrong though.

Van's has always been the leader in kit aircraft value..... I expect Van's will be able to beat the finished price of a Kitfox. This is his biggest competitor in this category.

This is no kitfox. 2000 lb gross and 140 kts and massive cargo area. This is much closer to the Glasair Sportsman.
 
Van's has always been the leader in kit aircraft value..... I expect Van's will be able to beat the finished price of a Kitfox. This is his biggest competitor in this category.

????????

Have you actually looked at the size of the baggage area of a Kitfox compare to the RV-15? Or compared the useful load of each?
 
What do you think the odds the kit will be offered in a "front country" version.....wheel pants, fairings, etc....
 
????????

Have you actually looked at the size of the baggage area of a Kitfox compare to the RV-15? Or compared the useful load of each?

Have you tried to get in and out of a Kitfox?
RV15 is in a very different class than a Kitfox. Getting closer to the Glasair Sportsman.

The Kitfox is a one-person machine for any kind of traveling. The Sportsman is VERY comfortable for two people heading into a week of camping at Oshkosh and carrying everything in the airplane with them. The RV15 will be much closer to the Sportsman in this regard.

Maybe, just maybe the RV15 will feature a flat enough floor to allow at least medium-sized folks to sleep inside the airplane. That's a really nice trick to have up one's sleeve when the weather gets nasty or when one arrives in bear country and doesn't have time to set up a perimeter.
 
Pretty sure I read that they will offer an A version. Maybe it was in the video. Rian mentioned that they would offer it with a 3rd seat for the trainer scenario where an observer would be in the back, but it would require the rear seat cushion to be flat on the floor like the -10 due to headroom constraints. That was right after he mentioned that the floor was completely flat from the firewall to the baggage bulkhead.

Based on that there may or may not be constraints with adding two more seats in the back since you would need “footwells” for two passengers.

I’ll admit, I am/was not a fan of the aesthetics of this plane, but it’s growing on me.
 
This is no kitfox. 2000 lb gross and 140 kts and massive cargo area. This is much closer to the Glasair Sportsman.

????????

Have you actually looked at the size of the baggage area of a Kitfox compare to the RV-15? Or compared the useful load of each?

My statement.......

Van's has always been the leader in kit aircraft value..... I expect Van's will be able to beat the finished price of a Kitfox. This is his biggest competitor in this category.

As you can see, there are pluses on both sides and both company's will do well, but Van's will again provide the best BANG for the buck.......

As you can see, I was comparing price, popularity, and position in the marketplace. Nowhere do I compare cargo area, speed or gross weight.
__________________
 
Van's has always been the leader in kit aircraft value..... I expect Van's will be able to beat the finished price of a Kitfox. This is his biggest competitor in this category.

As you can see, there are pluses on both sides and both company's will do well, but Van's will again provide the best BANG for the buck.......

To justify my above statement, attached are the kitfox order sheet and Van's order sheet....

kitfox order sheet.JPG Vans price.JPG

Kitfox series 7 STi.... base price $44,000.00 and options from above list.
Total up a Kitfox airframe (less motor) and an average total is $62,585.00
Compare that with Van's current airframe prices in the above attachment.

I DO expect the RV15 to beat the KIT price of a Kitfox.
 
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I am just a little bit bummed by the cargo door as depicted. I was hoping for a full-size door on one side in the bay immediately behind the pilot access door. Kinda like what you see on many pickup trucks nowadays. I'd like to be able to open the door and stuff bikes in.

I'm sure there are serious structural consequences. The door frame is already going to be a beast to have the crew doors nice and big. Having two doors right next to each other would certainly compound the problem, but I think it would be worth the extra weight and trouble.

Feeling better about this after hearing Rian's interview. Slide the seats forward, wheel your bikes in, and built-in wheel wells to hold the bikes upright. Ok, I'm seriously jazzed now!
 
The "Gurney Flap" on the stabilator looks way too tall. There is a NASA paper from about 1989 on the proper size. I think I still have a copy from my car racing days. A larger than desired Gurney Flap causes a large increase in drag, without a substantial increase in pitching moment or "lift", so it does no good. Also, the Gurney Flap's main purpose is to keep the lower surface flow attached all the way to the trailing edge; I am guessing this improves elevator feel.

From my experience, I would guess it should be no more than 1/8" tall.I am not there to measure it so it is hard to tell exactly how tall it really is. JMHO. YMMV

It’s a temporary engineering test configuration/tool being used to add some pitch control force feedback via the stick. The next version of the stabilator will take into account what the engineering team has learned from this phase. No intention to leave it on the airplane as a permanent feature.
 
I am just a little bit bummed by the cargo door as depicted. I was hoping for a full-size door on one side in the bay immediately behind the pilot access door. Kinda like what you see on many pickup trucks nowadays. I'd like to be able to open the door and stuff bikes in.

I'm sure there are serious structural consequences. The door frame is already going to be a beast to have the crew doors nice and big. Having two doors right next to each other would certainly compound the problem, but I think it would be worth the extra weight and trouble.



Maybe smaller but Bonanza type:

https://vansairforce.net/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=28677&stc=1&d=1658925479
 

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It’s a temporary engineering test configuration/tool being used to add some pitch control force feedback via the stick. The next version of the stabilator will take into account what the engineering team has learned from this phase. No intention to leave it on the airplane as a permanent feature.

I'm sure most of us have watched Rian's interview with the UK Flyer Magazine but if you haven't, it's really fascinating to hear his thoughts and explanations on the current prototype as well as anticipated changes.

https://youtu.be/eeQi6kAf9a8
 
Heard

I might have missed it in the 35 pages of thread so far but anyone know the wingspan? Looks pretty wide.

I heard 35' but may be reduced to fit in a T-Hangar.

I think this is Vans "wishlist" airplane. This will change to accommodate market; some things probably did not turn out the way they thought. If I remember correctly, the RV12 prototype was flush riveted, but was too fast to meet LSA standards so they re worked with pull rivets.
 
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The stretch version with a back seat looks to be an easy add on to the RV15 line.
That sure sounds like a 4 cylinder Lyc, or Cont aircraft engine in the video, but turning it into an O-470 stretched 4 seater should be an easy follow on to that line.

This! I saw a video last night where one of the designers confirmed they have another high wing they haven’t announced. Hoping it’s a stretched model and not just an A model.
 
If I remember correctly, the RV12 prototype was flush riveted, but was too fast to meet LSA standards so they re worked with pull rivets.

I doubt that. Flush rivets don't make much, if any, performance difference at these speeds.

*Pet Peeve -- "Flush rivets vs. Pulled rivets." is a misnomer.
Driven rivets may be flush or round head. Pulled rivets may be flush or round head.
 
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