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Shawn's -4 re-build

Compass required in Canada?

I mounted a Whiskey compass in the location you have on your panel scheme..in flight, it resembled an ice cube in a shaken cocktail. I never relied on it ,nor could I get it to be remotely accurate. It quickly got relocated to the shelf as a paper weight. With the GPS and phone apps that I use , it was wasted panel space that became where my G5 is now.
 
RV-4 panel....

I mounted a Whiskey compass in the location you have on your panel scheme..in flight, it resembled an ice cube in a shaken cocktail. I never relied on it ,nor could I get it to be remotely accurate. It quickly got relocated to the shelf as a paper weight. With the GPS and phone apps that I use , it was wasted panel space that became where my G5 is now.

Here is an old picture of my well-thought out panel. It has the old "steam gages" but I like everything where it is, including the compass, which is pretty accurate. The center instruments are on a suspended panel. Picture a Dynon D-10 in place of the RMI in the upper panel. Working on that now..... I might have chosen another instrument but Dynon was the choice at the time....:rolleyes:
 

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elevator

Thanks for the input on the panel. Instruments are on order. It is not the first priority but since lead times can be so long on stuff, I plan on just ordering stuff so that it is here. I am still finishing up the house renos but starting to look at the plane a bit here and there, trying to make a plan of attack. Since I bought it flying, I don't have any background in the build process so I think I might be bouncing back and forth between the basics parts of the manual and then trying to apply that to what ever part of the project I am at. There are a lot of small things (and some major) to do.

One of the first things I think I might try to address is the elevator. The left side skin has a small crack in it that has been stop drilled at both ends. It seems to begin at a rivet. The right side has had a repair done to it, perhaps hangar rash?

I am thinking (with no experience...) that new elevator skins would be the proper/best way to go about the repair. But since this is an early kit, (ie, holes would have been drilled at the discretion of the builder) will it be possible to match drill the new skin to the old stiffeners/ribs? I started looking at the build manual. I see that I will need some V-block formers. Or will the process be different seeing as I am starting with a completed elevator? Or should I start fresh and build a whole new elevator?

Any suggestions as to how best to proceed?
 

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Not as bad as it seems

The elevator spar ,counterbalance rib, and end rib can be re- used. The stiffeners only attach to the skin, and the skin rivets to the spar and end ribs. The V blocks are important to prevent twisting, and are easy to make. The skin , after its riveted to the spar is rolled with a piece of PVC pipe to form the leading edge. If you don't have the build manual, get one from VANs. It's not a horrible job. The trim tab is the trickiest part.
 
The Hinge....

One of the first things I think I might try to address is the elevator. The left side skin has a small crack in it that has been stop drilled at both ends. It seems to begin at a rivet. The right side has had a repair done to it, perhaps hangar rash?

Well, that's an interesting repair. And I'll just bet the elevator was not rebalanced after adding all that weight......

I am thinking (with no experience...) that new elevator skins would be the proper/best way to go about the repair. Or should I start fresh and build a whole new elevator? Any suggestions as to how best to proceed?

That hinge looks a little funky as well. The eyeholes don't seem to be lining up. I would take a close look at that. Maybe pull the hinge pin and check the wear.....It shouldn't look like that....:confused:
 
That hinge looks a little funky as well. The eyeholes don't seem to be lining up. I would take a close look at that. Maybe pull the hinge pin and check the wear.....It shouldn't look like that....:confused:

Funny you should mention that. After I posted it, I took a closer look at the photo and noticed that apparent misalignment too. I just went to look and try for slop. I cannot detect any but will pull the pin and see if it is something to be concerned about..

Thanks
 
Hinge Eyes Don't Line Up

That appears to be the paint line that only "matches" when the trim tab is in its neutral position - looks to be in the down posit in the pic.

YMMV - Just my opinion.

HFS
 
all as Bill says in his post #54
... but if it'd be me, I'd redo the whole elevator(s).

Well, kinda depends really, but if you intend to have the skin(s) shipped, you might as well order a new spar and ribs, as that stuff ain't too expensive.
On the other hand if you can source out the the sheet metal locally, then cut and bend the skin yourself, then a re-use of the spar could make sense. The more so if you're on a budget.
It might sound a bit anal, but even with the best drill-out method the holes in the spar will have expanded some during the first riveting process. Also, match drilling, as in back drilling from the spar, or using strap replicators, is a good enough but not perfect solution. Not sure about how experienced you are (apologies if I'm stating the obvious here), but the riveting itself is usually more difficult on enlarged holes. And finally the amount of work is basically the same.

Decisions, decisions :)
 
A little trick to use when you back drill, is to use a 90* drill gun, with a short bit of appropriate size. #40 for-3 rivet holes. And #30 for -4 rivet holes. Just be sure to clamp the skin to the spar really well and start in the middle clecoing every hole and checking often for straightness. Do one side then the other. Check fit and straightness with all holes clecoed, should be fine. Then do the stiffness as per plans.
Good luck
Hope this helps

RD
 
Decisions, decisions....

all as Bill says in his post #54
... but if it'd be me, I'd redo the whole elevator(s).

Well, kinda depends really, but if you intend to have the skin(s) shipped, you might as well order a new spar and ribs, as that stuff ain't too expensive.

... or using strap replicators, is a good enough but not perfect solution. Not sure about how experienced you are (apologies if I'm stating the obvious here),....

Decisions, decisions :)

Not experienced at all...in this area

Good points, both on the "make a new elevator" and "decisions, decisions" ...;)

I am trying to prioritize what I need to do and want to do. Obviously, since the wings are off, focus on doing as much as possible while here at home, but ultimately what needs to be done here. Resources are limited at the hangar. I am lucky in that it is only about 15 minutes away, but picture a shack of a building, not a glorious man cave like I see so many lucky to have. I want to have the plane flying in the spring or early summer. The elevator could be built here anytime, and then replaced at the hangar so it will drop down the list.

The list is long but mostly minor stuff, relatively speaking.

Metal work for lights
New panel
Relocate controls and switches, breakers, etc
Fiberglass repairs (minor cracks, breaks, shoddy looking, one wheel pant needs a lot of love)
Paint interior
Get new upholstery
Engine sensors
Check firewall and engine mount weldments, longerons, etc.

As previously discussed, Vans feels every -4 has wrinkles and not an issue, but a mild wrinkle and major wrinkle are very different to me. I am not building a show plane, but want something I am safe and happy in too.

and....the list goes on.

I don't even know if 5-6 months is reasonable for everything but we will see. We have more snow coming this week, apparently, so I got the wings out of the hangar yesterday and moved here to the house. The whole plane is here at least. Let the games begin!

Thanks for the tip bbsdad.
 
Building time.......

I don't even know if 5-6 months is reasonable for everything but we will see. Let the games begin!

Have you worked on cars?:rolleyes: My rule with doing a project on cars is figure out how long that will take. Double that and it will take longer than that.:eek:

Airplanes are similar but a bit more complex. The thing is to keep doing things in a progressive manner without worrying when they will be done. Ask anyone who has built an airplane. "So.....when do you think you'll be done....?" 'Thursday.....' Having everything at the house will really help as getting to the airport is another reason not to do something that day. There are days you will go out to do something, sit down and just stare at things, and go back in the house. There are days you'll be working away and it is suddenly 2 am and you had no idea it was that late. Getting even one thing done is one thing you won't have to do. Just keep going....one thing at a time.

I am in the middle of getting some renovations done to SuzieQ and have a long list of items that I keep adding to. The List is two-sided: one side is the project, the other side is the parts list for that particular project. I keep the list handy so, when I think of something, it gets added to the list. Just put in an ACS order yesterday...... I have passed several end-time goals. But I'm pretty sure I'll have everything done by Thursday.....:D
 
Catching up to Thread

Shawn,
I'm catching up on this tread after a bit, so multiple comments follow:
-I did exactly what you are doing 2 years ago. Took about 9 months. Michael's comments are spot on. The key is to work consistently at it. Have a dedicated schedule and clock in and out like its a part time job. It will be behind you in no time. And tackle one sub-project at a time as much as you can. Complete it and put it behind you. Makes you feel like you are making progress.
-I like radios on the left so I can keep my right hand on the stick. Just a personal preference since I fly lots of formation. I chose the Trigg radio for its size and excellent built in intercom. I wish I would have placed the Trigg Transponder on the left and Engine monitor on the right. But my panel was already cut for the G5, Dynon EMS, 796 doc, compass, and GT-50 when I got the project.
-As far as placement goes, don't feel married to the attitude indicator on the centerline. Shifting everything to the side a tad may give you some needed space. My G5 is on the left and I never notice.
-On your proposed panel, consider swapping the G meter with the compass. Better places the G meter for acro.
-If I could do it over I would have tossed the wet compass and sprung for a magnetometer. I'll eventually do that but should have just done it initially.
-I have an AV-30 in my 182. It doesn't display true AOA. It displays an assumed AOA based on pitch, flight path, and G-loading. Its useful on a stable approach, but is inadequate as an AOA gauge. I copied this pitot/AOA probe idea to make my own system: https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=79776 I found the differential pressure gauge online. For acro, BFM, and on final: I LOVE my AOA gauge!
-You'll never need the AI during acro. But, as previously mentioned, glass is nice because it doesn't tumble or precess.


In the attached pix ignore the MGL V6 radio. I replaced it with the Trigg after just a few hours. I just couldn't get the MGL to work.
 

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Thank you Roadjunkie and andoman. Great info for me to consider.

roadjunkie, I modified my spreadsheet to include required parts. Good points.

Andoman...I am considering moving the radios to the tunnel. I have seen some installations like that. I won't be doing much formation flying but I do use controlled airspace. Frequency changes will be common. I am not married to the layout yet. It was my first thoughts one day....still considering options.

I am very close to getting into it. I did start to assemble the flyleds circuit boards the other night but the first thing the instructions say is to insure the circuit boards fit well into the wingtips before soldering in components....so I guess one of my first projects will be cutting the wing tips to install the light bays for the nav lights and landing lights. Then I can assemble the nav led boards and install them. And if I am going to that, maybe I should try to do the fiberglass work needed.... lol..dog chasing his tail.

I have been reading a bit on fiberglass repairs lately. The cowlings need some repairs around the front intake openings. And some fairings need work too, etc. Need to decide between West System epoxy (which I have from a previous job) or use resin. Does it matter?

So, good advice for me roadjunkie. Basically, just pick something to work on....;)

I will pull the engine off of the plane soon to make it fit in my shop easier. I want to do a compression check and dial the crank first though. A friend has an engine stand so that will help.

One thing I am kicking my self for is not taxiing it around before I pulled the wings. It would have given me a better idea of what controls I like in their current position. I am pretty sure I want to lower the throttle quadrant. It seems high. I see it in both positions in online photos. I am sure I would adapt but for those who care to comment, where is yours and are you happy with it? My trim lever looks in what I consider the standard position. It is probably fine, unless I incorporate it into a 3 lever quadrant. I did sit in it one day and just kind of looked around. I have some ideas.

Attached is a photo of the current interior. Nothing is fixed in my mind re location right now.

Will need to sit in it and make airplane noises I guess.

Thanks for the input. I will be happy when I can start posting progress reports but I see this research as a huge part of the process, so progress in its own way. Just no making dust or chips.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Shawn
 

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Throttle placement

One thing I am kicking my self for is not taxiing it around before I pulled the wings. It would have given me a better idea of what controls I like in their current position. I am pretty sure I want to lower the throttle quadrant. It seems high. I see it in both positions in online photos. I am sure I would adapt but for those who care to comment, where is yours and are you happy with it? My trim lever looks in what I consider the standard position. It is probably fine, unless I incorporate it into a 3 lever quadrant.

Look at post #52 again and see where my throttle quadrant and trim are. I like them where they are. There is a shelf behind the spar bulkhead that is a great place to rest my arm. Having the throttle way up where yours is makes no sense to me. This is NOT where you will want it if you are thinking about doing any formation flying. You want it where you can have your hand comfortably on it making the minute adjustments one has to when flying close to another airplane. Mine is placed where my hand naturally rests. I have the three lever assembly with the trim most outboard. Again I can make small trim adjustments without much hand movement.

I did sit in it one day and just kind of looked around. I have some ideas. Attached is a photo of the current interior. Nothing is fixed in my mind re location right now.

Good! Look at as many -4's or even -8's as you can and see what the consensus is for throttle placement. Look at jet fighter set-ups; nothing on a jet is way up where yours is. And the -4 flies like a jet, right?;)

Will need to sit in it and make airplane noises I guess.

Yes: I sat in SuzieQ for hours to get everything exactly where I wanted it and to be familiar with being there once she was flying; it was a familiar place to be. While she is slightly disassembled now I still go out and just sit to stay familiar with being in the front office and to see if there is anything I would change. Even with nearly 1200 hours of flying her from there, I am still coming up with things I need to change. When you finally get to start the engine on your first flight after all that work, you want it to be a familiar place. I can touch and work everything in SuzieQ with my eyes closed.

I will be happy when I can start posting progress reports but I see this research as a huge part of the process, so progress in its own way. Just no making dust or chips.

I spent a huge amount of time figuring and not building. My center console took a lot of time to figure out the design, and then what I wanted to be placed where. End results: I LOVE the cockpit of my airplane! And, even with the old 'steam gauges', looks better than most I have seen.

Merry Christmas to you as well.
 
Thanks Michael

Yours is one of the images that I have saved. It might be the one that I noted the radios in the center stack. I have seen others like it since, too. I do like everything about your setup so will be using some of your ideas.

You have already stated that you love the center console so I guess that alleviates my concerns about being in the way. I would think that it complicates servicing in the footwell a bit. Did you do it in a way that the whole thing can come out easily? Couple of connectors and the antenna wires I suppose....
 
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SuzieQ and center console

I do like everything about your setup so will be using some of your ideas.

ME TOO! I still have the poster board cut-out of the panel with all the instrument cut-outs that I sat and rearranged for months to get things JUST the way I wanted them. Could I have used a computer program for that? Um...no. This was 1994 and there wasn't much available. I also liked the actual size of the poster board and the ease of moving things around. Simple is sometimes better. I could also take that poster board mockup out to the airplane and tape it on the panel to see if that is how I really want things to be. Difficult to do with the computer.....:p

You have already stated that you love the center console so I guess that alleviates my concerns about being in the way.

It is definitely not in the way....when I first read that I thought 'in the way of what...?':D It puts the radios exactly where I wanted them, off the panel (except for the [now antique] GPS which has since been removed), more room for switches and gauges that are not referenced as much as those on the panel. (Is fuel pressure important? Yes: glance down.) The radio frequencies are controlled by the "china hat" switch on the stick grip (INFINITY Aerospace: LOVE it! Fits my hand perfectly and has SWITCHES) as well as the transponder ident. There is also a handy compartment for.....what were those called?.......oh, yeah: charts :D If you look closely you can see my canopy-escape tool on the left of that compartment. Perfect! Again: look at some jet cockpits. The center console is a great place to put a bunch of things and is not in the way....

I would think that it complicates servicing in the footwell a bit. Did you do it in a way that the hole thing can come out easily? Couple of connectors and the antenna wires I suppose....

Yes, the whole unit comes out with three bolts and three screws after disconnecting all power/service/antennae wires/cables. The fuel selector/stick boot panel has to come out as well but it probably takes 10 minutes if I'm not distracted by something (my Cat). Easy access to the battery. What if my battery needs charging? There is a fitting on the left side of the battery compartment that hooks up to a charger. I've never needed it.

See all the cool things you get to figure out??:):):)
 
-Yes, storage!! The first thing I noticed in Michael’s panel was the slick map box. My rocket project has a center console and I loved the extra space to work with. Ended up with more space than equipment so I had room to build a large glove box down there.
-Definitely move the throttle quadrant down.
-Since your manual trim lever may get displaced by the throttle quadrant, consider electric trim. You can attach the servo to the front end of the existing cable. Or get a shorter cable and mount it on the deck below the vertical stab. Saves the tedious work of fitting it in an existing elevator.
-Use switched cb’s wherever it makes sense. It’s nice that your project already has the -8 style switch / CB panel on the right.
-I, too, love my infinity stick grip! Flaps, flip-flop, and ident on the grip is nice. I can’t recall if your engine is injected. If so consider a start button on the stick. Facilitates ease of full aft stick on start with left hand on the throttle and mixture. I incorporated a start enable switch right next to my boost pump switch. I can gang both of them on in the event of an inflight engine failure and enable my start switch. They are located near my mixture knob.
-Are you going to upgrade your lighting? I went with FlyLED’s. Their slick little module allows taxi, taxi+landing, and wigwag on one switch.
-Look at as many RV’s in person as you can. This forum is gold, but in person insight is priceless. I ate breakfast up at the airport on many a Saturday during the projects and spoke with many owners.
Again, good luck!!
And Merry Christmas!!
 
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Center console....WAY back in the early days.....

Yes, the whole unit comes out with three bolts and three screws after disconnecting all power/service/antennae wires/cables. The fuel selector/stick boot panel has to come out as well but it probably takes 10 minutes if I'm not distracted by something (my Cat). Easy access to the battery. What if my battery needs charging? There is a fitting on the left side of the battery compartment that hooks up to a charger. I've never needed it.

Found some really early pictures of my center console before the radios etc were installed. You can see it is stand-alone unit. There is also one of how it looks now. I lied when I said how many bolts and screws hold it in: 7 screws and 4 bolts. Weight with all radios wiring etc is just at 10 pounds.
 

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Hinges

Mine has hinges top and bottom. Just pull the pins.
I can’t take credit as it was already fabbed when I got the project.
 

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Hi Shawn,

I redid my -4 panel 1.5 years ago. I went with a pretty simple VFR setup. Here's a link: http://jdfinley.com/new-instrument-panel/

A couple points that I think are worth mentioning.
1. The removable fuselage/cockpit cover makes working on the backside VERY easy and changes a few of the typical design/layout thoughts (making things easily accessible).
2. My switches are mounted above the radios so access to the wiring is easy (from the back). In my case, the switches are rarely used in-flight and this location works fine. My more often used switches are on my stick grip.
3. An EFIS/engine monitor puts a LOT of information in a very small package. For VFR flying, the -4 instrument panel suddenly becomes very spacious.
4. You can just barely see from one of my photos that my trim is mounted about like yours with a very small lever. Throttle/Mixture is mounted just above it (but much lower than yours). This doesn't leave much room for accessing the trim lever but works fine for me - just muscle memory at this point.
5. I like the idea of a center console for storage but not for electronics. That's because of access (again, removable cockpit cover). I currently store a number of emergency repair items in the tunnel (with the battery (which is now lithium)) and some additional space would be nice.

Hope that helps... lots to consider!
 
Getting going...random questions and update

I have been gradually diving deeper into the re-build. I did put the seat back in and floor pans, etc so that I could sit in it and think....consider changes to be made, as we have been discussing.Not much new to report here. No revelations, although the trim cable location seems to interfere a bit with where the rear rudder pedals will connect to the rudder cables. That prompted me to explore electric trim again. Jury is still out. A tech at Van's gave me some good input on modifying an old -4 for electric trim but part of it was the suggestion to build a new elevator to accommodate the servo better than the original -4 elevator. Since a new elevator was previously discussed due to cracking, it might make sense to wait till that happens to install electric trim. Another option, mentioned here by a member as well, was to connect to the existing cable somewhere. Will see what happens.The trim cable needs to be moved slightly outboard anyways to put the throttle quadrant in that area so I can probably figure something out for the rudder cable connection.

I included the response below for those that might be looking into a similar conversion. I know there are a lot of threads and posts about this topic.

I then started looking at the engine. First thing I did was I dialed the crank to insure it was within specs and also did a compression test. Runout was good, as the seller told me. The compression test was a cold one and my intentions at the time was to do some engine work anyways, so, it was kind of irrelevant. Just an experience opportunity for me and I was curious. One intake valve a little leaky but otherwise, as expected for a well past TBO engine. I decided to send it for a rebuild/thorough inspection by an engine guy. I feel good about that so once it is there, I can focus on the other stuff.

Next will be just stripping everything out of the interior, then the relocation of controls and switches, making new switch panels as needed.

Couple of questions.

This plane has no oil cooler. Seller said one was never installed and he never needed one. Common?

The brake lines are all the plastic stuff. Good or bad?

Fuel valve is very stiff to turn! I will replace it. Any valves to avoid? I see quite the range in costs.

This plane has a Flightcom 403 intercom. It also has an Icom A210 radio, which has an intercom built into it. Does anyone have any experience with the use of the intercom built into the Icom radio? It is common, from what I have seen, that most planes have intercoms but I wonder why the extra equipment when the radio has that function.

Totally jumping of topic and out of the fuselage, what tools would you use to cut the light bay into the leading edge of the wing? Is a nibbler worth the investment? I would think tin snips would make a messy job of it (maybe that is just me). I have an oscillating saw. I am wary of distorting the front of the wing. Small zip wheel? Again, one of those things that once I get going, I will be fine but getting set in the right direction is always good. And as builders, who does not want to talk tools? :)

That's it for now. Thanks all for the great input!

Cheers,

(Input from Van's regarding the mod of an old RV4 for electric trim)
The kit shown below is what would be used if a RV-4 builder wanted to install elevator trim servo into the elevator. The RV-4 however is not well suited for this kit as it does not have the E-615 reinforcing plate utilized by all other RVs to allow the servo installation in the elevator. Below is a snap shot showing the differences between RV-6,7,8 and the RV-4 elevator. It would likely be simpler to build a new elevator and alter it during the build than to convert an old existing RV-4 to allow this style trim servo install.

I have a RV-4 myself and If I were planning to convert from manual to electric I would instead modify the RV-10 installation detailed in the attached plans section 11 starting on page 8. This utilizes a short cable and then mounts the servo in the tail cone of the fuselage. You might take some time to study this installation and see if that is something you feel up to attempting.
 
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Another option, mentioned here by a member as well, was to connect to the existing cable somewhere.

If I were to change to electric, this is the approach I would take. I like the idea of not having the servo in the control surface.

This plane has no oil cooler. Seller said one was never installed and he never needed one. Common?

Reports are all over the map. I struggle with high oil temp, the next guy with too cold. I believe there are many variables which makes a good discussion difficult. If you don't have an issue - celebrate. If I were building/rebuilding, I'd install a remote mounted (not on baffles) oil cooler. IMHO, better to have and not need than need and not have. Of course, it is weight and $$$.

Fuel valve is very stiff to turn!

Before tossing it, disassemble and lube (fuel lube - EZ Turn). It may come back to life. You can also lightly dress the surface which may ease the resistance a bit (but I'd clean/lube first).

Does anyone have any experience with the use of the intercom built into the Icom radio?

I have an older Apollo SL-40 transceiver with intercom and like it. Works great for my simple VFR needs. As an aside, I find the ability to monitor a second frequency very useful. The newer small/compact radios and incredibly capable.

Totally jumping of topic and out of the fuselage, what tools would you use to cut the light bay into the leading edge of the wing?

I haven't had to do this but think I would start with a dremel and cutoff wheel. With some practice (on something other than your wing :D), you can acheive pretty accurate cuts.
 
Cutting hole in LE for lights

I have been gradually diving deeper into the re-build. I did put the seat back in and floor pans, etc so that I could sit in it and think....consider changes to be made, as we have been discussing.Not much new to report here. No revelations, although the trim cable location seems to interfere a bit with where the rear rudder pedals will connect to the rudder cables. That prompted me to explore electric trim again. Jury is still out. A tech at Van's gave me some good input on modifying an old -4 for electric trim but part of it was the suggestion to build a new elevator to accommodate the servo better than the original -4 elevator. Since a new elevator was previously discussed due to cracking, it might make sense to wait till that happens to install electric trim. Another option, mentioned here by a member as well, was to connect to the existing cable somewhere. Will see what happens.The trim cable needs to be moved slightly outboard anyways to put the throttle quadrant in that area so I can probably figure something out for the rudder cable connection.

I included the response below for those that might be looking into a similar conversion. I know there are a lot of threads and posts about this topic.

I then started looking at the engine. First thing I did was I dialed the crank to insure it was within specs and also did a compression test. Runout was good, as the seller told me. The compression test was a cold one and my intentions at the time was to do some engine work anyways, so, it was kind of irrelevant. Just an experience opportunity for me and I was curious. One intake valve a little leaky but otherwise, as expected for a well past TBO engine. I decided to send it for a rebuild/thorough inspection by an engine guy. I feel good about that so once it is there, I can focus on the other stuff.

Next will be just stripping everything out of the interior, then the relocation of controls and switches, making new switch panels as needed.

Couple of questions.

This plane has no oil cooler. Seller said one was never installed and he never needed one. Common?

The brake lines are all the plastic stuff. Good or bad?

Fuel valve is very stiff to turn! I will replace it. Any valves to avoid? I see quite the range in costs.

This plane has a Flightcom 403 intercom. It also has an Icom A210 radio, which has an intercom built into it. Does anyone have any experience with the use of the intercom built into the Icom radio? It is common, from what I have seen, that most planes have intercoms but I wonder why the extra equipment when the radio has that function.

Totally jumping of topic and out of the fuselage, what tools would you use to cut the light bay into the leading edge of the wing? Is a nibbler worth the investment? I would think tin snips would make a messy job of it (maybe that is just me). I have an oscillating saw. I am wary of distorting the front of the wing. Small zip wheel? Again, one of those things that once I get going, I will be fine but getting set in the right direction is always good. And as builders, who does not want to talk tools? :)


That's it for now. Thanks all for the great input!

Cheers,

(Input from Van's regarding the mod of an old RV4 for electric trim)
The kit shown below is what would be used if a RV-4 builder wanted to install elevator trim servo into the elevator. The RV-4 however is not well suited for this kit as it does not have the E-615 reinforcing plate utilized by all other RVs to allow the servo installation in the elevator. Below is a snap shot showing the differences between RV-6,7,8 and the RV-4 elevator. It would likely be simpler to build a new elevator and alter it during the build than to convert an old existing RV-4 to allow this style trim servo install.

I have a RV-4 myself and If I were planning to convert from manual to electric I would instead modify the RV-10 installation detailed in the attached plans section 11 starting on page 8. This utilizes a short cable and then mounts the servo in the tail cone of the fuselage. You might take some time to study this installation and see if that is something you feel up to attempting.


I have just cut the holes in the wing leading edge (no distortion) for the landing/wig-wag lights and used: 1) Step drill to make 1/2" hole at each corner. 2) Hand nibbler to cut the lines between the corners. 3) Rotary sanding drum and electric drill for the final trim and then sandpaper. Note I am using a Single Spotlight from Flyleds in each wing and because of its compact size the cutouts needed to be only 2.5" diameter.

Hand nibbler at ATS, very useful tool that gets used once in a while:
https://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=64823
 
Manual Elevator Trim Mod - Just My $.02

I built an RV4 way back in the 80's, and didn't like Van's original manual elevator trim setup, as it used a separate "lever" adjacent to the throttle. (which then was directed to be mounted near the cockpit rail - kind of inefficient re/ergonomics) At the time, it seemed to me that in the "heat of battle" I might be inclined to pull the wrong lever for the wrong reason. What to do?

I (not the only one back then) lowered the throttle quad to a point on the sidewall more convenient from a "hands on" standpoint - much like today's posit. As for the trim lever, I moved it to the fuselage, just aft of the F-408 bulkhead, aft of the baggage compartment. In order to get the movement of the tab correct, I made the actuator into a bellcrank instead of the original lever called out. I figured out a ratio that gave me the movement of the cockpit actuator (sliding lever under cockpit rail) appropriate to the movement of the trim tab. The sliding lever was just above the throttle quad - for good ergonomics, and had a pointer and scale to indicate position of the tab. In order to provide some "friction" in the system to preclude "creep" during regular ops, I sandwiched the bellcrank arm between two pieces of UHMW and then used the pivot bolt to adjust the face contact as necessary to give the required "stiffness" to the system. This mod worked really well for me for all the years I flew the airplane; and, as far as I know is still in operation today.

Sorry about the quality of the pic (a Polaroid - remember those?), but at least you get a sense of it.

HFS
 
Pic of Trim Lever Mod

Sorry - this pic didn't come through with my previous post.
 

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This plane has no oil cooler. Seller said one was never installed and he never needed one. Common?
Installed one on my 320 powered -4, still works good

The brake lines are all the plastic stuff. Good or bad?
Ok down to the callipers. There were (are) reports of hot brakes melting them hoses, not really what one wishes for... so I used aluminum lines for the whole length, but for the close to the brakes where a SS breaded line was used

Fuel valve is very stiff to turn! I will replace it. Any valves to avoid? I see quite the range in costs.
Had replaced this one with an Andair which is still working super after all these years. Expensive though...

most planes have intercoms but I wonder why the extra equipment when the radio has that function.
I mounted an intercom when I built the -4. On the -6.9 I ditched the intercom when replacing my radio with a built-in function which works pretty good. Only downside is no direct knob to either control the volume or squelch, but generally a quick access thru menus

what tools would you use to cut the light bay into the leading edge of the wing
as mentioned by others, initial cut with a dremel. Coarse sanding drums work pretty fast and good

Attached a couple of pictures whilst I was building. First the trim, which I changed from manual to electric using one of these mac motors. The cockpit, of note the position of the power quadrant, and the circuit breaker holder. Nowadays I would position all avionics, radios included, on the panel itself. No good fiddling head down just to dial a frequency.
 

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A couple "what I did's"

I originally built my elevators for manual trim, then saw the MAC electric option (pre internet searching). It was easy to make tweaks to the install drawing and make the cable cut-out I had already made work. I made my own tab arm and riveted to close-out rib. I also have electric aileron trim and flaps. All are controlled via MAC stick grip buttons. Manual vs electric is as controversial as primer wars, however I am spoiled with HOTAS set-up and never have to reach for a thing..eyes outside at all times. You mentioned an I-Com radio/intercom..I have a Fliteline FL-760 radio with built in intercom that is perfect for my mission. Whatever you do with your throttle quadrant, keep carb heat and trim controls far away from it. Grabing the wrong knob when the cockpit is busy likely caused a friends life, but I wont get into that. Also, make sure your canopy latch is per plans, and or has at least 2 safety measures..I have 3. The springs on the rods hold the pins engaged, I have the knife blade safety latch that goes into the side rail, and a bright warning light. I know too many folks that have blown their canopies, all of them were altered latch systems. The per plans system pretty much takes 2 hands to open and close, and for good reason. I have attached a couple pics of elevator trim and oil cooler..I recommend you install one, though RV-4's run pretty cool.
 

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Throttle/trim etc placement....

Whatever you do with your throttle quadrant, keep carb heat and trim controls far away from it. Grabing the wrong knob when the cockpit is busy likely caused a friends life, but I wont get into that.

Here is a close-up of my setup. The trim knob is WAY above the throttle and to operate, I need to supinate my hand to get to that blue knob: a completely different move than needed to move the throttle. I have never mistaken my trim for the throttle. I'm not sure what the setup was in the above mentioned post but it was likely the trim being way too close to the throttle and maybe the same length. Once my trim is set, most of my small adjustments are just gently tapping the shaft with my finger for nose down trim, or reaching up and tapping the blue knob for nose up. Great for fine adjustments of the trim. If you decide on electric trim, above would be a moot point.

My carb heat control (the "T" handle in the picture) was purposely placed where it is so I can shove it in as the throttle is shoved forward when needed. A go-around would be a good example of the need for that which I have done way more than once. Throttle full; carb heat in (almost one continuous motion); drop one notch of (manual) flaps; reach up and retrim with the (handy) trim knob (supinated hand); reach down for last notch of flaps up; trim again. Takes seconds to go from landing configuration to departure configuration. I do routinely practice go-arounds so it is routine. Expecting the unexpected..... I also have never taken off with the carb heat on as my throttle hand would bump into that "T" handle at full throttle!

Also, make sure your canopy latch is per plans, and or has at least 2 safety measures..I have 3. The springs on the rods hold the pins engaged, I have the knife blade safety latch that goes into the side rail, and a bright warning light. I know too many folks that have blown their canopies, all of them were altered latch systems.

I have the canopy latch with the springs that are a pretty positive push into the locked position. It takes a positive PULL to get the rails to engage/disengage. I have two holes (front and back) for taxi position and the two per plans for flying. I have a microswitch behind the panel that the latch hits to shut off a BRIGHT ORANGE CANOPY OPEN light, ON any time the canopy is not secured for flight. I've not heard of many canopies departing company with the airplane but others likely know much more than I.

Oil cooler..I recommend you install one, though RV-4's run pretty cool.

Yeah, an oil cooler is a good idea. Mine is firmly attached to the engine mount with three welded fittings and has a gate to regulate air flow. Works very well. I have to block off the air flow from the baffling when it starts to cool down as it works actually TOO well.
 

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Thanks everyone for the information. I have been busy pulling the engine, then a road trip to take it for a rebuild in Winnipeg. So that part of the project is in the hands of someone else. I now get to focus on other aspects and go back through this thread to absorb all of the information provided. You all are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate you all willing to take the time to share.

Oh, and while in Winnipeg, I got my first introduction to aerobatics in an RV4! I did experience an aileron roll in mine when the seller first took me up, but this ride was way more involved,..... My stomach does not agree that this is a good road I am venturing down! :eek: Perhaps, it will be different when I am the one flying but being in the back seat, not so well. My pilot was an Aerobatics instructor and he was great, always checking with me!!

What a ride though! These planes are a little (ahemm...lot) different than the Cessnas and Pipers I have flown and owned! Totally pumped about getting it back in the air soon. Gotta get to work! :D

Thanks
Cheers,
Shawn
 
Perhaps, it will be different when I am the one flying but being in the back seat
Absolutely. On top of that, the more one flies aeros, the less the stomach rebels :D
And training with a qualified instructor is definitely the way to go... those RVs build up speed pretty fast, and learning how to properly get out of a botched manoeuvre a must.

Nice seeing and reading your progress!
 
Aerobatics........

While in Winnipeg, I got my first introduction to aerobatics in an RV4! My stomach does not agree that this is a good road I am venturing down! :eek: Perhaps, it will be different when I am the one flying but being in the back seat, not so well. My pilot was an Aerobatics instructor and he was great, always checking with me!!

My first aerobatic instruction was with one Ron Litton who performed in air shows years ago in his clipped-wing Talorcraft! He told me before we left that if I started to feel unwell, to tap him on the shoulder and point back to the airport (WAY before intercom systems!). After about 45 minutes of that airplane doing some amazing things, he tapped me on the shoulder and pointed back to the airport. No, I said: I'm doing fine! Not you, he said: ME! That cracked me up. When we got on the ground he said that was his first flight of the year doing aerobatics. He needed to go up and "ease" his way back into doing full routine; otherwise he would start to not feel well! :D:D

What a ride though! These planes are a little (ahemm...lot) different than the Cessnas and Pipers I have flown and owned! Totally pumped about getting it back in the air soon.

Oh, just you WAIT!! "Total Performance" really means Total Performance!

Here's a picture of Ron passing me (in the Cub) in his Talorcraft inverted.....:D:D:D
 

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to the shop...

I am happy to report that the project has now been promoted to the actual shop! The hindrances to getting this far have been addressed and now hoping for 4-6 months of progress. (Yes, I can be overly optimistic sometimes! )

As has been suggested, (pick a part and do it), I am going to start with the full pivot tailwheel conversion. I have the parts from flyboyaccessories and should be getting the tail spring off tomorrow.

A side note for a smile,..... with the plane, I got a binder of the RVAtor newsletters. A 3" binder about 2 thirds full, early 80's to late 80's, the building period. I randomly opened it the other day and stumbled onto an article on the location of the throttle quadrant and how to move it, and notes that a lot of builders are diverging from the plans (in my location, see above posts) and installing it in a lower location. I know Google search will start sending you appropriate ads, but a printed binder from the 80's opening to the article I have been talking about......:eek:

:D

Cheers,
Shawn
 
New tail wheel fork in

I modified the tail wheel spring and installed the Doug Bell full swivel tail wheel fork today. I still had the circa 1985 non full swivel tail wheel. I figured it should be one of the first jobs to do to allow easier moving of the plane in the next few months. Instructions from flyboyaccessories were great and walked me through the process.

Turning the tapered spring in the lathe was interesting but it worked out ok. Took some fancy pop can shims. :)

Hardware is temporary till I get AN hardware.
 

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Brake lines

Installed one on my 320 powered -4, still works good

The brake lines are all the plastic stuff. Good or bad?
If you stay with the factory plastic brake lines, its only a matter of time before they rupture and they seem to always weep.

When they fail its most likely to be when you need them the most.

Id change the plastic brake lines out for some proper lines made at your hydraulic hose shop and you wont have any problems.

The return lines (low pressure are not as critical)

Lots of stuff on the forum about those lines.

Tim
 
Wiring

Most of my avionics arrived yesterday. So it gets me thinking about the wiring. I found some good threads here on that aspect. I think I am fairly comfortable on the mechanics of doing it, but not up to speed on common practices, good or bad. What I mean is I can do the connections and understand schematics, but I will need to think about maintaining service options. We have discussed the panel a few posts back so good input for me there.

I have a basic diagram drawn up, just the power distribution to see if I am on the right track. The EDM350 came with complete harnesses. I need to build harnesses for the AV30's. The radio, trasponder and Intercom were professionally installed previously, and nicely done, so the harnesses should work. I may want to rearrange my panel a bit to leave them where they are if the harnesses don't have much flexibilty.

But attached is a version for critique and input. I have always been in the circuit breaker camp, but I know there is a lot of sense to if a breaker pops, should it be reset without investigation. And looking at my diagram, I am thinking that a mix might be reasonable. Some items such as motors/servos could be obstructed (ie on the ground) so may inadvertently blow a breaker whereby a reset is reasonable. Power outlets (USB or 12 VDC) may be overloaded so could be blown inadvertently ie not a fault. But as for lighting and electronics, if a breaker blows, it is most likely a fault, ie wiring rubbing, component failure, maintenance induced fault, etc. Not something one would want to do the "one reset" protocol on.

So I am actually leaning towards a mix of breakers and fuses. I know a nice bank of breakers looks real cool but practically speaking, it complicates the wiring, running of the wires, adds weight, cost (not much in my case as I have most already), etc whereas a fuse block behind the panel may be more appropriate, easier, lighter. This leaves only a few breakers that need to be easily accessible.

What do you all think?
 

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I'm sure plenty will chime in with different opinions...
What I see is a fairly simple and logical diagram, pretty similar to what I have on my ship.
Not sure how much you will be flying on your own or with some charming company, but I would skip the intercom, and use the one provided in your COM.
Though your reasoning re fuses vs CBs is sound, I would stick with CBs only. Easy to install, the more so when using a power bar. No need to carry spares (of different Amps), and yes, ground only for me, resettable .
 
Simple is good

Mine is similar, but I did used CB's for all the aircraft systems, and when I added the USB ports and cigarette lighter type power supply (which I just removed) , I wired them with the simple inline fuse supplied. I really like CB's because its very easy to isolate components during maintenance, or for other temporary reasons. My Com and Xponder are switched through the AVX master, however my G5 is on the main Master. The days of the AVX master are almost gone with new tech stuff not bothered by engine start and load issues. As others mentioned, if you have a COM with internal intercom, there is no need for a separate circuit. My FL-760 has a really nice internal intercom. The USB with dual ports keeps my Nexus 7 (GPS/MAPs) and my cellphone charged while flying.
 
I always suggest reading and understanding the AeroElectric Connection. It is full of great information and recipes for succes.

With that in hand, look carefuly at the Z diagrams compared to your mission. I'm all for simple in a day/vfr ship. However; it seems that there is always something to add some complication. You'll even get into the 'avionics bus' discussion.

Fuses or CB's??? What fun!! :p I think a balance of both is the best answer given the relatively limited space we have in an RV-4. There is a whole-lotta space available behind the instrument panel to add a fuse panel - and they don't cost what CB's cost.
 
Removal of instruments

Yesterday was a fun day. I started removing everything in prep for a new panel install and wiring. (and painting the interior) It was interesting to look at how everything was put together. The plane was built with an old Loran, and then, over the years, that and the old radio were replaced, maybe other stuff installed, so I found old wires, coax, etc., also strangely satisfying to remove. ;)

Before I get too far, since I am going to move the throttle quadrant, I thought I should do this before removing the panel. I may need to look for interference, comfort, etc and the panel in place will help with that perspective. I need to slightly offset the trim lever as it is in the middle (inboard-outboard) of the space where the new quadrant will be. My solution was to put a bend into the lever. (I need to look at drawings before doing things...another lesson learned) The first bend went well but in attempting the second bend, the lever snapped. I guess aluminum does not bend like steel, my usual material to work with. Oops. This morning, I went to the drawings to see what the lever is made of. It is 2024 x 0.125 which I don't have, but I should be able to find some, or weld it back together. I am aware of the concern for min bend radius for aluminum and don't think I was anywhere near exceeding that (but it appears I was wrong), but alas...live and learn. In the plans, I now see that it is just straight so the easier solution would have been to just slightly adjust the mounting bracket, bringing the lever more to the skin in the area of the new quadrant location, thus, out of the way.

Other than that minor issue, a great day! Lots learned!
 

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lever/quadrant/panel

I found some aluminum that worked out well to replace the broken trim lever. (Sorry, I can't figure out how to rotate image)

I have the new location for the throttle quadrant and a plan to mount it. Just finalizing the method to install it. Mentioned earlier, I found an old article on moving the quadrant. Attached is the article. Is this basically how those of you that installed your quadrant did it? Riveting support pieces to the skin to act as reinforcing as well as a means to attach the quadrant? Anyone have photos handy of how they did the quadrant mount? I have found/seen many of the final position but wondering about how it got there. Can't think of too many options outside of a variation of the article but my experience is limited right now....:confused:

For the panel, I purchased a large sheet of 0.063" 2024-T3, thinking I would "just" bend the lower flange. But after breaking the trim lever, I am thinking that this might be easier said than done. I googled bending aluminum and came across a few articles addressing the min bend radius (I was a little familiar with the concept) and how to do it (this is what I was wondering about). I think the stacked aluminum might work for me in my brake but doubt it will bend the panel material anyways. So I am now planning on riveting a piece of angle to the lower edge, as was found in my search. Any thoughts or input?
 

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Well, no detail pictures, but I did attach the quadrant exactly as shown in the revised plans, with z-channels riveted to the F sidewall.
Same as for the lower bend of your panel, access to a proper bending brake will help manufacture those.

Re the bent on the panel, I’d really try to do it (or have it done), as the option of riveting an angle will not only add (a little bit… and another one) weight, but might introduce a sharp edge which might get your knees one day or another.
 
Dan makes good points ref the angle at the bottom of the panel.
An angle would be acceptable if it were my build. My Rocket project came with an angle and I never gave it a second thought. Regardless of angle or bend, consider a .75 or 1 in. flange in order to have easy to work with real estate available for adels if planning to bundle wire along it.
 
Thanks guys. I think I came up with access to a brake that can do it. The bend would have been the preferred method anyways. I will insure to have about an inch for running wires. Good point.
 
I always suggest reading and understanding the AeroElectric Connection. It is full of great information and recipes for success...

FYI:
  • The Aeroelectric Connection book does not contain the latest Z schematics. I made some notes and links.
  • Z schematics show the master and starter contactors wired differently from post #88.
  • If you share your schematic on the Aeroelectric List you will get responses from Bob Nuckolls and others.
  • Z101 is Bob Nuckolls' latest and is recommended in almost every case where a Lycoming engine is used.
 
Basic question

Looking at the diagram suggested for the throttle mount, it shows 2 pieces of aluminum running lengthwise and riveted to the inside of the skin. I know this plan is only a suggestion but since my level of experience is low, I thought I might ask a question or two.

Is there a reason that this cannot be one piece? I mounted my quadrant to a piece of aluminum so that it could be installed as one piece, versus removing the 4 assembly bolts. So having a flat plate to mount the mounting plate to would easier. And the lining it all up too. For me anyways as I venture into the world of riveting.

Seems obvious that it would not matter either way, but thought I would check in case there was a concern of cracking with over rigidity or something I am not aware of...:confused:
 

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Mounting

Mounting is really your choice,but make sure everything is set-up correctly before the commitment to drilling and riveting. My quadrant is all home-made, but much like any other store bought model. I incorporated a section of sidewall/armrest into my throttle mount and it all lines up with bracketry forward of the fuselage bulkhead frame to provide smooth movement and adjustability. I riveted some attach angles to the fuselage the quadrant mounts to, and the side of the quadrant becomes the attach angle for the sidewall close-out panel. Your idea of the one piece bracket would be plenty rigid.
 

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