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Insert witty "scared me to death, learned something new" title here

Sig600

Well Known Member
I debated on whether to share this. I really just want to bury this in the recesses of my brain and experience tool box. It's not so much a bruise to the ego, as I am angry at myself for getting to this point. But figured if it can save a flat lander who heads west on some windy day, then here goes...

Quick back ground, 99% of my GA flying experience is all east of the Mississippi. Most of my mountainous flying experience is in turbine aircraft with the structure/power/wing loading to make mountainous turbulence a non-issue. I've been doing a little charter flying on the side recently in and around the Sierras, mainly just for the fun of it. I've got the exposure, education, experience that I should've seen this one coming... but didn't.

Our current SOP is to cancel anytime the wind is higher than 25 knots. I had a quick out/in charter to do, literally one hour total. When loading passengers for the flight out, there were thunderstorms in the area moving through however I had a clear path there and back. The storms were never a player, and out here 80% of all the radar returns are virga that dry up above about 9K feet anyway. So we taxi out, and launch. The wind is a stiff 15-20, but nothing unmanageable. However I can see a dust plume rolling towards the airport and the turbulence tells me the upper air is a lot more active than I thought. I should also add this leg requires clearing a mountain range that's at 8700'. Quick hop over going out, nothing worth noting, it was a nice flight. I land, and am curious/concerned with what looked like a gust front (minus precipitation) approaching where we now had to go back too. On the ground about 20 minutes, and I'm calling home to the ASOS every 3-4 minutes when the winds start picking up. By the time my pax show back up for the return leg ASOS is reporting 25G33 but it's only 30 degrees off RWY heading. If it's too bad, I've got a VFR divert with calm wind, not too worried.

Those of you that have been flying small GA (or anything with a thrust to weight ratio of less than 1:1) probably already have this figured out. I should have. I knew instantly when it happened, what was happening. I failed in thinking that through 15 minutes prior.

For you fellow flat landers, quick education time. When air flows over a structure, it creates a wake (duh). Like water down a rocky stream. We interpret that wake as turbulence. When the wind is blowing perpendicular over a mountain range, it goes up the slope, then down the slope. Usually not an event. When it starts blowing hard enough however, it blows up the up wind side, but has too much energy to attach to the leeward side and come back down. This creates a low pressure area on the leeward side, usually at the ridge line level and lower. If the wind blows hard/long enough, you get what is essentially a horizontal tornado.... or rotor. My dad lost a squadron mate on a flight to this phenomenon, it's speculated that it's what killed Steve Fosset.

OSTIV_MWP_Wave.jpg


Back to departure for home. There is some dust whipping up here and there, visibility is 50+ (standard out here), light chop, rain showers here and there, uneventful climb to altitude aside from being hot. There is a low spot (or saddle) in the ridge line of this mountain range where we usually cross, today was no different. I was about 1500' above the ridge, headed towards the saddle approaching at about a 30 degree angle, trying to get a look down range and listen to the local ATIS for winds back at the field. Did I fully understand what causes what was about to happen? Yes. Did it ever occur to me to put the current conditions and this knowledge together? Not when it mattered.

Approx 2 miles from crossing, I noticed we started to pick up a decent, which ultimately increased to 2K FPM. This wasn't unusual as even a slight breeze will push you up and down when crossing, but 2K was way more than I'd ever seen. Think of this as mother nature throwing me one last warning which I failed to correlate. Once we had pushed through the down draft, all **** broke loose. In the span of what had to be less than a second, I was thrown against the belts cracking my skull on the roof, and knocking off my headset, over my eyes of all places. Everything that was in the cockpit not tied down was now on the roof. Before I could even react, the airplane was in a 135 degree over bank, in something greater than 20 degrees nose low with airspeed screaming through the yellow arc and a windshield full of rapidly approaching and rising mountains. We were getting beaten so bad I had serious fears of impending structural damage or failure. Having spent many hours upside down in airplanes, the corrective action here came natural thank God, slammed the throttles closed (which set off the gear horn and didn't help with the pax in the back but they are the least of my concerns right now) and with the airplane right side up, pitching up to bleed off airspeed and get back in the green, I still had a 2K FPM decent going (now is when I advocate upset training). Everything went forward against the stops, and I was able to arrest that to 500 FPM. There was a couple of small canyons cutting through the ridge I could settle into and I made a quick assessment. I could over bank away (essentially wingover) and turn back into the valley behind me... and go back through the rotor or I could press forward knowing that once I cleared down draft we'd be clear of the whole thing. I opted to press and pointed us down one of the little canyons. After a few more seconds we were through it, and cleared the ridge with room to spare, given the circumstances. When we got back to the field, it was blowing.... hard. Landed, taxied in, everyone was good. Pax are salty fliers but still said that one scared them. It scared me... bad. The airplane is grounded until a few pieces of the cockpit can be found and all FOD is clear.

Lesson learned here? All the knowledge and experience on the planet doesn't mean squat if you don't recognize when to put it to use. I fully understood what causes the phenomenon. I knew what was happening the moment it happened, I failed to apply any of that in the preceding seconds/minutes/hour leading up. On the way in the pass was totally fine, 20 minutes later on the way out conditions had changed so radically it almost killed us, and only I could've predicted it, you couldn't see it. It wasn't a failure of preflight planning, any willful risk taking, or a violation of any FAR/SOP.... There was no written law or rule that was broken that could've prevented what happened. It was purely a correlation/desicion making failure by me. Back east the only thing that gets in the way of your route can usually be seen in the form of storms/fog/etc. Out here you can see through the dangers, and that's scary. I could've taken a northern route, avoided the entire event and only added about 10 minutes to our flying time but I was so preoccupied with what was going on back at the field and planning for that contingency I didn't realize that I needed another way home, not just an alternate for home.

So if you're headed out this way, google mountain flying. Or start here...
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Safety-and-Technique/ASF-Weather/ASF-Mountain-Flying

http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/FAA_Tips_on_Mountain_Flying.pdf

Density altitude (which was 7600' at the time) isn't the only invisible killer out here.
 
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Wow! Scary stuff, and I'm glad you kept the top side up.

That was a great post. Extremely well written, informative, and eye opening. Thanks for that.
 
Thanks.

..for the excellent post, along with the image. It's true that some pretty crazy things can happen around mountains. The fact that the air out west is usually clean and dry doesn't help things (not to mention the density altitude). It's a great place to fly, but if you're going near mountains, get some mountain training first.
 
I've scrubbed many flights due to high winds around here.

in fact we delayed our weekend trip by 12 hrs last friday due to wind over the Divide.
 
I went through a 8600' pass once from downwind side in a 172, I didn't know enough (very low time) to accurately predict what the winds were going to do because my instructor was an idiot - though I didn't figure that out until later (my high-altitude instruction happened at 2800'). I did know enough however, to know that bad things happen close to the ground on the downwind side of a mountain pass. It took awhile but I nursed that tired old 172 with myself +2 up to 11,300 at the time we crossed the pass, and even then it was quite interesting. Even at that altitude keeping the airplane in Vy we were seeing the mountain wave move us from +800fpm to -1000fpm. Center gave me a big block of altitude to play with, I was all over the place seeing 12,800 at one point.

That's the trip that "woke me up" from complacent newly-minted PPL to a pilot that realized this stuff can kill you if you don't pay attention. I think I had 13 hours as PPL when we started that trip, all of it happening in low-altitude Dallas and southern OK area.

After learning how to fly "for real" over the next several years, I would love to meet my primary instructor again - in a dark alley this time. :mad:
 
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Sounds a lot like the weather in the Minden-Carson-Reno area.

Great presentation of the events and clues leading up to the wild ride.

Very good drawing of the rotor/Lenticular activity, and the unseen forces that cause them.

You may have saves someones life, or at least kept them from unwanted danger, thanks for posting.

If you see something like this, stay away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1_U20cI5Xc
 
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The experience reported by Sig600 is very fascinating. So is the video Mike linked. However, just to be sure everyone is aware of the nature of these cloud formations, one does not have to be flying over the ridge of a mountain to experience them. The picture below was taken 3 years ago at 4500 MSL over the flat land of western Oklahoma. In fact, the buildings below the clouds in the picture below are of the town of Weatherford, OK. Everyone should recognize that town as it is the present location for LOE. Further this picture was taken just about a month prior to LOE 2010.

rotor%2520clouds%2520over%2520Weatherford.jpg


these were lenticular clouds, or rotor clouds, that most likely formed off of Mt. Scott that is about 60 miles due south of this location. The prevailing south winds had pushed them north over Weatherford that day. Although turbulance might not have been as sever as Sig600 experienced had I gotten closer to them, I was still giving them a respectful berth. The air was very smooth around them but I was not about to fly close enough to see what would happen near them.
 
Thats an amazing story. Thanks for sharing. You were considering doing a wingover and returning the way you came, that sounds like a good escape plan.

What kind of plane were you flying?
 
....I should also add this leg requires clearing a mountain range that's at 8700'. Quick hop over going out, nothing worth noting, it was a nice flight. ....

... I was about 1500' above the ridge,

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't know if there's enough information in your post to say, but would the following rule of thumb have helped in your case, or would even it have been insufficient?:

One of Sparky Imeson's "Rules of Thumb" in his Mountain Flying Bible is that when winds are above 20 kts, fly an altitude above the mountain range that is at least 0.5 x the altitude difference between the top of the mountain range and the surrounding terrain. For example, if the mountains top out at 8000 MSL and the surrounding terrain is 4000 MSL, you should cross the mountains at 10,000 MSL minimum.

It is a rule I just used coming home from Montana yesterday when winds at my airport (surrounded by mountains that rise ~ 3000 above the valley floor) were 25G34.
 
Thanks for sharing your story. I don't know if there's enough information in your post to say, but would the following rule of thumb have helped in your case, or would even it have been insufficient?:

One of Sparky Imeson's "Rules of Thumb" in his Mountain Flying Bible is that when winds are above 20 kts, fly an altitude above the mountain range that is at least 0.5 x the altitude difference between the top of the mountain range and the surrounding terrain. For example, if the mountains top out at 8000 MSL and the surrounding terrain is 4000 MSL, you should cross the mountains at 10,000 MSL minimum.

It is a rule I just used coming home from Montana yesterday when winds at my airport (surrounded by mountains that rise ~ 3000 above the valley floor) were 25G34.

I'll add that to my must read list, can't say if it would've helped or not, I suspect it would have though. It's never been a real consideration since we just cancel if the winds start getting up there.
 
Sig,

Thank you for your timely post. I am planning a trip with my grandfather this summer in his SuperCub. Our route has changed based on his (vacation) location that will take us up the central valley of Colorado over Tennessee pass north of Leadville (choosing this pass for its lowest altitude). Then on north into a little more 'spread out' valley flying in southern WY. Planning on leaving first thing in the morning (in July) from Buena Vista CO to take advantage of favorable winds.

Specifically because of this route change, I purchased Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible. While I know this will not replace instruction in the mountains, it changed in my head what my reaction would be in your situation (which could involve diving toward terrain in some circumstances, or not being in that situation in the first place). I started reading that book yesterday.

Good to hear your experience, especially as a very experienced pilot who knew the risks and the danger that was present. Glad you're safe, and I'm sure others will decide to study up based on your experience. You have helped save lives by sharing your story,
 
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Great post Sig. Especially for us flat landers from Florida. Gave me food for thought. I have flown my -6 out West but not over the Rockies. I make trips over the Appalachians but generally go West of them if the winds are high.
 
Altitude and speed to fly near wave

Good story! I appreciate your emphasis on encouraging others to learn and understand and recognize the situation, rather than just say 'danger, there be dragons'. It is possible to fly safely around mountain waves.

As a glider pilot in the west, we are pretty good at forecasting when to expect mountain wave, because we want to use it.

If I'm crossing the Sierra in my RV-8 in wave conditions, I would go to 12,500. I think 10,000 isn't really enough. Although, crossing from the east (leeward) side, I would approach at 10K, find the 'up' part of the wave, and let it take me the rest of the way up to 12K or so.

The rotor doesn't extend very much higher than the ridge line, (as your diagram shows) or at most, a few thousand feet above it, so 10K would normally be enough to miss the rotor, but of course not the strong sink of the down side of the wave. The wave flow above the rotor is very smooth, although presenting areas with very strong sink and very strong lift, no turbulence. (there are exceptions, when the wave "breaks" on the downwind side of the primary)

But more important, use the right speeds to fly. No point trying to climb at Vy in 2000 ft/min sink! Speed up fast to get through the sink quicker, and you will loose less altitude than trying to fight against the sink. This is mainly true if you are going into the wind. Running downwind, it probably pays to fly closer to Vy.

Then, when you hit the lift, slow down and take the altitude buffer it provides - you might need it in a few minutes.

Learn to recognize the difference between rotor clouds and regular cumulus, or lenticulars. Rotor clouds look like twisted bread dough. And if you watch them for a little while, you can see them turning over.
 
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Help

Can anyone tell me how to post a question on this forum? I am new and cannot find an icon that provides for posting.. I have read many folks discussing the use of proseal as a engine case sealer but none have ever mentioned the specific type or number

Can you help me?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Hi MIke,
At the top left the tree outline for the forums is shown. VAF Forums > Main > Safety . Click on Safety (or the forum you want the message to appear in) and then click on New Thread button at top.
 
Welcome to VAF!

Can anyone tell me how to post a question on this forum? I am new and cannot find an icon that provides for posting.. I have read many folks discussing the use of proseal as a engine case sealer but none have ever mentioned the specific type or number

Can you help me?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike, welcome aboard the good ship VAF.

Go to this link, there is a button to start a new thread, upper left. This will take you to the forum on traditional aircraft engines, which I think is the right place for a question like you are wanting to post.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=21
 
Sig, Thanks for posting.

I too am reading Imeson's book in preparation for a trip west latter this summer. After that story I skipped directly to the mountain wave chapter and your story brought the issues to a very clear light.

Great book by the way and has me revising my POH in regards to how I thought I should conduct un-paved ops. Highly recommended.
 
Great post to educate and warn others of mountain flying in the west. Definitely worth the read to impress all pilots to do more research.

Rick
 
+1 for the Mountain Flying Bible. I had a mountain checkout several years ago and the instructor in Rifle, CO required its reading before the flight. We had a couple hour review on the ground and then a couple hours flying to several area airports including Glenwood Springs. Leadville was clouded over so we missed that one. Those hours of instruction were the most valuable I have received. Even if you don't think you'll encounter mountain conditions I'd recommend reading the book.

Sig, thanks for the post. I've followed you on the forum for a while and respect your perspective and insight. Thanks for your service too.
 
Great post and very thought provoking. +1 for Spary Imeson's Mountain Flying book. I pull it out and reread it on a regular basis just to keep current. It's packed with a LOT of good info on the subject.

If you haven't flown in western US/Canada before, seek out a Mountain Flying course. It IS a different type of flying and requires a different skill set. I think Doug visited this outfit a few years back before they went into Johnson Creek IIRC...

http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/
 
+1 for the Mountain Flying Bible. I had a mountain checkout several years ago and the instructor in Rifle, CO required its reading before the flight. We had a couple hour review on the ground and then a couple hours flying to several area airports including Glenwood Springs. Leadville was clouded over so we missed that one. Those hours of instruction were the most valuable I have received. Even if you don't think you'll encounter mountain conditions I'd recommend reading the book.

Sig, thanks for the post. I've followed you on the forum for a while and respect your perspective and insight. Thanks for your service too.

Glenwood is a little tricky to get in and out of. The cold air over the river just before you touch down gives you a little thrill!
 
Great post

Great post Sig!
Can you tell us the exact route of flight and where you departed and which airport was your destination?
I am quite familiar in the Sierras and would like to know where exactly you encountered your nightmarish up and downdrafts and turbulence.
Thanks for sharing.
 
Great post Sig!
Can you tell us the exact route of flight and where you departed and which airport was your destination?
I am quite familiar in the Sierras and would like to know where exactly you encountered your nightmarish up and downdrafts and turbulence.
Thanks for sharing.

Location was a remote/private site for a mining and geothermal exploration company. Vauge enough for you? :D

Gents,
Thanks for the postive feedback. Glad its spurred some educational discussion and not just for myself. I've got some new professional reading to do, and my whispering, nagging desire to try glider flying is a lot louder now.

If anyone is curious of the power of the VAF community, I've been contacted some heavy hitters at big aviation publications you all read. They browse these forums. :eek:
 
location

Sig,

I think Ernst was just asking if you could tell us if it was near Carson Pass, or Kingsbury Grade, or west of Mammoth, or west of Sierraville, that sort of info.

Would knowing that reveal too much about the private endeavor?
 
Sig,

I think Ernst was just asking if you could tell us if it was near Carson Pass, or Kingsbury Grade, or west of Mammoth, or west of Sierraville, that sort of info.

Would knowing that reveal too much about the private endeavor?

Just south of Winnemucca NV.
 
Timely rotor lessons

Thought I would restart this as it is March and blowing like snot outside today.
I climbed to 14.5 last season to cross East to West over the Sierras. The sink I encountered was very smooth but in excess of 2K fpm. Bailed out with a 180 back to Bishop for gas to go around the south end at Bakersfield. At the pumps, a local was trying to tell me about all the passes I should try. Did not sound like prudent advice to me. I politely declined and took the long route.
That particular day, all the small airports on either side of the Sierras were reporting low wind velocities. So, it was hard to see it coming. No clouds.
I thought alot about Steve Fossett that day as I turned back. Anyway, thanks for posting the story and the great graphics that put a picture to the phenomenon.
 
Thought I would restart this as it is March and blowing like snot outside today.
I climbed to 14.5 last season to cross East to West over the Sierras. The sink I encountered was very smooth but in excess of 2K fpm. Bailed out with a 180 back to Bishop for gas to go around the south end at Bakersfield. At the pumps, a local was trying to tell me about all the passes I should try. Did not sound like prudent advice to me. I politely declined and took the long route.
That particular day, all the small airports on either side of the Sierras were reporting low wind velocities. So, it was hard to see it coming. No clouds.
I thought alot about Steve Fossett that day as I turned back. Anyway, thanks for posting the story and the great graphics that put a picture to the phenomenon.

Good choice. Around here if you're down to one way out of a situation, you're somewhere you shouldn't be.
 
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