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Need advice from Career pilots

Mopar591

Well Known Member
So after reading all 38 pages of the "Show us your day job" thread I have a question for all career pilots. This might be in the wrong section, so MOD move if needed.

A little background on me:
I am 21 years old and have been dreaming of a career in aviation (flying) since I was 12. I got my first aviation job at 15 working 60hours a week loading ag-cats. Even managed to get a hopper ride once. I moved on to maintinance and have worked on Airbus, cessna, piper, aeronica, Grumman, ect. Over the past few years Managed to get a few hours from a few of them. I have friends that broker and operate 2 Merlin's a 3B and a 3C, as well as one Metroliner, saberliner. If I had any turbine time it would be from flying right seat on trips with them.
I am still a student pilot, got caught up in school and neglected to take my check ride. I have about 70 hours, 40 of which is tail wheel and nothing bigger than a 210 Cessna logged. I am an EMT and dont make a whole lot of money, luckily I have a very supportive wife.

So to my question:
What do I need to do to get a decent flying job? I understand I need to finish my PPL and get my ratings. But what direction should I head to eventually make it I a corporate pilot job. I need more turbine time to qualify for the insurance on my uncles caravan. I am building my rv4 with hope to build hours and maye get a job flying pipeline patrol, dusting, and any other low time job I can get until Ivan move up..

I want to know what y'all would do to work your way to a corporate career starting where I am. Military is out of the question

I would appreciate any advice or comments anyone can give
 
I can only comment on the airline side of things, but here goes.

I'll start with the not so positive side of things.

Don't do it!

1. To now get on with an Airline you need ATP Minimums. That is a metric tonn of flying either (a) out of your own pocket or (b) working for pennies.

2. Schedules continue to get worse. Im spending more time away from home on less productive trips

3. Pay is an ever constant battle that we never seem to win.

4. The regional world (where you would almost certainly start) is becoming even more cut throat. Lately all I seem to hear is "X airline has ceased operation", "Y Airline is losing flying to Z Airline", etc.

I could go on (and on...) but I think you get the idea.

On the plus side: The people I work with are some of the best in the world. With a few exception, the crews all try to work together to make the best of a not so great situation.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd be Working ATC. :)
 
Keep your dream

I am not a career pilot so maybe the above post is
realistic of someone been there and done that. If I was young
again, maybe I would try the military route. I say keep your dream.
My girl friends brother is a pilot for a private jet company and loves it.
He says the outlook for demand of pilots is very good.
Stay positive, focus and your dream will be a reality. Go for it!
 
My dad was a military pilot (Navy) and flew for TWA until he retired. I wanted to fly airlines and he told me to "stay the **** away". He pointed me in the ATC direction, and it was a great choice. I am 49 and retired(from ATC). The pay is good, and if you like video games ( I was a center controller), the work is easy.
Mike
 
Mopar,

I was in a similar situation as you. In high school I was pretty set on wanting to become a corporate driver, but at the time I was graduating high school in 2007, a full program flight school was going to cost up to 80-100k, the economy was crashing and many pilots were losing jobs or working for pennies. It wasn't a great time to 'start out' in the flying business (military was out of the question for me too, I wanted to do ROTC but my eyes wouldn't qualify to fly).

I grew up farming so I went to college for AgriBusiness, and joined the school flying club and got as much flight time on the side as I could, eventually getting a commercial rating and flying the skydiving club on the weekends. I'm now 23 with 525 hrs flight time, a private and commercial. I have a great ag industry job that I enjoy and provides a lot to me at this age, so I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. On the side I still plan on getting my instrument ticket and my CFI.

You mentioned you've loaded ag-cats, and would consider aerial application. I think that is a great route if you want to build time fast and eventually get into a PIC turbine seat. I managed an aerial application facility this summer (didn't fly), but have learned a lot about the industry. If my current job got defunked that is the route I would probably take. We both know it is HARD work, but if you know your way around an ag operation it can also be a tremendous opportunity for young pilots with the right credentials.
 
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Nick - I have honestly thought about ATC. What do you have to do to get a job in ATC?

I have a friend that flys a 37 for SW, he tells me to stay away. I will never give up on my dream.. I am thinking about Going to nursing school to have more money to fly. When I get a few more hours I'm gonna try and pull strings anywhere I can.
 
Brad - Given your experience with AG, what do they look for as far as minimums and how hard is it to get a turbine seat? Can you reflect any on the pay? I know that the airline industry isn't the way I want to go.. I don't want to be the b**** for a regional and not make enough to buy anything but ramen noodles for 10 years.
 
Save your money!!!! I had the same "dream" since about 5 years old & followed that up with going to a college that had a 141 school. I worked through my ratings up to CFI. Thank God I had two other majors in college because I ended up in finance. There is no way I could live & build time flight instructing @ $20.00 an hour if or when a student showed up... You only get paid during ground / flight instruction. While sitting out at the airport 12 hours a day and MAYBE getting paid for 4-6 hours. then the student loans kicked in and had to pay back all the flight training hours & such at $1000.00 a month... That doesn't work out too great on a pilot's wage 20-30K at best starting out flying cargo / flight instructing (don't for get about taxes... So much for that $100K it cost to get all the ratings though your ATP. The math just doesn't play out to well. I turned to my finance degree and go a real job that could pay the bills and pay back the $70-$90K debt I racked up chasing my aviation dream. Now, at 37, with a real job / carrer, I only know one pilot that makes a decent living (my brother) who is a Citation 10 captain with NetJets. He had a rich wife & inlaw family for a while that supported him & paid for his flight time till he got a job with net jets 17 years ago.... I still make more than him.. I can build my own plane and fly when I want... Yep, I'm still paying back student loans for all that flight time... :eek: Best case would be for you to have about $100K on deck to pay for flight time and then plan on making no more then 35-40k for the next ten years. If you can live on absolutely nothing for the next 15 years and or have about $100K to spare, go for it. DO NOT go into debt to get any of your ratings!!!!!! .... BTW after 17 years with NetJets, my brother kind of dreads flying And can't fly GA (fun). This is just my take
 
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Daniel - I had looked hard at going to ATP to get all my ratings.. But they are smoking dope if they expect me to Borrow 70k+ to do that and like you said make 20k a year struggling to pay it back. If it takes me 20 years to get enough time to maybe fly a corporate gig for a private person, then I'll go that route. I hate debt and to be in the negative that long won't work for me. Im hoping I can get my RN and work that "real job" lol
 
Yeah... ATP is one of the worst I was looking in to re-doing my CFI this year. (I let it expire about 7 years ago). I made the mistake of talking to some one associated with their school & they would not leave me the freak alone. The $70K they quote is with min hours for each rating & is not realistic! Plan on about $100K I went through the 141 schools at Bowling Green... and finished @ Kent State University in Ohio.

BTW: I just got another email from ATP this morning. I made it very clear to them that I just wanted to redo my CFI for personal use ONLY... i.e. training w/ RV buddies.
 
MOPAR,

Although I am 62, I did go after my dream at 19, I had to wear glasses since about 4 and my heaing was not the greatest. I got into a college where there was a flying club and ended up getting my ratings through the airport at Tri-State in Angola, Indiana, After graduating from college I took the business route for the next 2 years while always looking skyward as any aircraft would fly over. The airlines back then told me to go away as they had all the Vietnam vets to fill all the positions and that I wore glasses they would never hire me. I went through a divorce after 2 years of marriage trying to fly in the early 70's but I never gave up hope. after 5 different flying jobs from 1972 to 1976 I finally wound up in Atlanta flying. I was the Assistant Chief instructor since I alreay had 3 thousand hours from instructing at Corporate Jets. They went belly up in 1979 but I gained a Citation type rating. After 3 more flying jobs from 79 to 83 being a Chief pilot for a 141 flight school and an check airman for 135 rides I finally jumped to corporate flying. The company was flying a Baron and Navahjo Chieftain which we flew for 3 years and they they finally upgraded to a Cheyenne II.
I averaged 600 hours a year with them but Home Depot finally drove them out of business and again my Job... I was ready to head to Africa to fly for a prince on a learjet that ended up taking a missle up the tailpipe when a budy of mine said don't go.....I got with a new corporation flying a Lear 24B and have been with the company for 21 years. Yes things were rocky at first. Keep contacts of folks you meet flying... they might be your dream holder some day... hang around some of the corporate flight departments if that is the diection you want to go...
Yes I have been blessed,, we went from a Lear to Citation III and had two aircraft for the last 18 years. I ended up getting a lot of different type ratins for CE 650 to Saber 65 to Hawker 800XP and our Challenger which I have been flying for the last 10 years. I still hold all my instructor ratings and have been doing a little instructing in RV's lately.. which will prove benificial when I get mine built.

So I say.... go after your dreams....yes It's tough and Flight Instructor pay and 135 cargo pay sucks....and you're lucky to make 20,000 a year as a cargo pilot and a lot less as a flight instructor until you get some hours so you can qualify for an assistant chief pilot position.

Smilin' Jack
 
<snip>
I want to know what y'all would do to work your way to a corporate career starting where I am. Military is out of the question

I would appreciate any advice or comments anyone can give

At the entry level, the corporate world can be lot different than the airline business. The airline world is very structured these days as to required hours, education and the like. The corporate, especially part 91 operations are, in many cases, determined more on personality than logbook numbers. I have witnessed several people get started by simply being at the right place at the right time. The "right place" in this case is at the airport. Many years ago I introduced a young flight instructor to a friend of mine that was managing a couple of Citations and a Jetstar (that dates the story) anyway he was hired into the right seat of a citation. Fast forward many years, he is now flying a G5. Sitting at home filling out applications and typing resumes isn't the whole story. You need to make yourself known to the people that can advance your career.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Agree

The great thing you have going for you is your youth. I see many people with same concerns as you, but they are a few decades older and have more financial obligations looming (more kids, college, medical expenses, etc), so they feel they have fewer options. So, you have time to be able to pick yourself back up if you try and fail, no harm in that.

My $0.02:

It is nice to have someone else pay for flying to be sure, but remember that it is still a job. I do enjoy flying for work, but it will always be work. Many times when I fly it is not at all the joyful experience I dreamt of when I was a kid:
We always miss at least one meal, so you end up eating something out of a wrapper.
Either automatic systems are doing the monkey skills for you the majority of the time or in my case, it is not about flying at all. We are system operators, and our systems are just more effective when airborne.

When I DO fly, I do the take off, then altitude hold goes on, the aircraft or the other pilot does the flying, and I operate the systems (radar, sonar, etc). I never realized it is easier to make a computer do the flying stuff than it is to make them do the other, so humans are relegated(in new, complex aircraft) to button pushing passengers most of the time.

If you can find a job that pays well enough to support the habit, I assume that would be better because you fly when and how you want, period.

This last sentence is all assumption. I have the money to fly for fun, but not the time because flying for food is taking up all that free time.
 
You Might Want to Look At This From Another Perspective

You really don't need to read between the lines to see what's going on in commercial aviation. Your best shot to get a job with the major carriers is thru the military, where someone else is paying for your heavy/turbine time.Regionals and corporate is a constantly changing environment, where the rug can be pulled out from under you because someone at the top has decided that owning a jet gives the company a bad image.

If you really want to be in aviation AND make a good living AND have medical AND a solid retirement, you need to take a close look at ATC. A newspaper article recently indicated the "average" income at Detroit TRACON last year was over $129,000. That should leave you enough to enjoy knocking around in your own plane. Sure beats flying back and forth between Detroit and Chicago 20 times a week making $35K a year. Something else to consider with ATC - government pensions and benefits are tied in and I believe they're indexed to inflation. Right now, there seems to be a lot of hiring going on as the controllers that came on after the PATCO firings by Reagan are nearing retirement en mass. As far as training and requirements, you can find that on line. I believe the FAA has farmed out most of the preliminary stuff to a few community college programs. Some of the ATC guys may want to jump in, but I don't believe a 4 year degree is a requirement.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Nick - I have honestly thought about ATC. What do you have to do to get a job in ATC?

I have a friend that flys a 37 for SW, he tells me to stay away. I will never give up on my dream.. I am thinking about Going to nursing school to have more money to fly. When I get a few more hours I'm gonna try and pull strings anywhere I can.

I've got two very good friends that work ATC. The first attended a specialty school to get his qualifications. I'm not exactly sure on what the final bill was, but I do recall it not being inexpensive.

The second attended the FAA academy in OKC. The application process was exceptionally long (2 years?), but in the end he was actually paid to learn.

They are both working ZFW in one form or another and love their jobs.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ahr/jobs_careers/occupations/atc/path2/


Whatever you choose to do, don't give up on flying for fun! An honest 98% of the guys I work with havnt seen a small airplane in years. I was fortunate that I did not gave any flying debt and a good friend that decided splitting a -10 would be a good idea... Probably the only two reasons I'm still involved in "real" aviation.

Flying in the airlines, it's not meant to be fun. It's all about passenger comfort / safety. You try to be the best 600MPH bus driver around.

I'm really not Mr Negitive, just trying to give you a realistic view on how the industry has progressed.

If you would like to talk further, feel free to PM me and I'll shoot you my Phone number.
 
LAMPSguy-
I have to Laugh!!!! "The Monkey pushing buttons" is the same EXACT thing that my brother says about flying the Citation 10!!! But I would love to have his schedule 7 days on - 7 days off... But I do see how he hates traveling, living in hotels & eating out of vending machines... Well, NetJets does have some good food left over from time to time..

Flying for a Job and flying for pleasure (love of aviation) are two completely different worlds. "Monkey push the button"!!! & carry the rich folks golf clubs.

Personally, My aviation dreams have never ended, they just changed a bit when reality set in... Rather than flying to live, I live to fly... Building an RV & planning to redo my CFI in the next 1.5 years. Fight instructing on the weekends (1 or 2 students) & towing signs when time permits... Now that's the life!!! (for me) AND it may actually cover some RV operating expenses (definately not the plane though).
 
I will reiterate what Nick said: Don't do it!

However I will not poo poo someone's dream. Do it if it is what you want out of life, but go in with your eyes open.

My aviation mentors were all sunshine and puppy dogs when I was looking into aviation. It has not turned out that way. They told me to expect about 150k a year by this point in my career for the airlines ( I am at least half that with 3 previous companies no longer in existence) and 250-300k /yr by the time I retired. Some currently in the industry do make this, but they are extremely few and far between and difficult to get. I had one of those jobs, but it does not exist any more. When that happens you start over at the bottom in both seniority and pay ( unless you are lucky enough to transition to corporate)

I am not a fan of putting too many personal details online so I will pm some to you so you have a point of reference.

I have just passed the year mark at the place I work, but when i was applying my buddy called the Chief Pilot to inquire about my status in the hiring process he was told my resume was in the trash bin because of my recent experience. I had a flying job, just not one they thought much of. Didn't even bother looking at the ones before the last one. They had too many to choose from even though i am more experienced than half of the Captains i fly with. If I had not had help from the inside I would not have had a chance. People make money off saying there will be a deficit of qualified pilots in the future. Take it with a grain of salt.

Network like your life depends on it. (you have already started, good job) Also try to decide what you want to do. Yes you can go from crop duster to airline pilot, but it is not real common. It is even more difficult to go from airline pilot to corporate for various reasons. Maybe you want to live and work in Alaska. I have friends there that love it. Dusting sounds quite interesting and challenging, I will leave it to Piere, or people you already know to speak on that.

Bottom line is evaluate what you want out of life. If family and friends mean a lot to you realize that a lot of pilot jobs are about being gone. Either by long hours for seasons like a duster, or days at a time like an aireline guy. Corporate can be a mix of both. Often in corporate you do not know your schedule till the day before, or even of. When i flew corporate before leaving for the airlines i had a vacation cancelled after my car was packed and I was an hour down the road once. My girlfriend rages at me days before and after leaving for my 17+- day trips.

Airlines, in my opinion there are 3 worth working for in the long run: Delta, FedEx, and UPS. Southwest could be added to that list if you like that type of work. (1 aircraft type, domestic for now, no variety) American, United, and USAir have been gutted. Talk to junior pilots there and you may cry. You will have to work some where before getting there though, and you should plan to try to be happy there, and not making the last step. It is like pitching for the Major League, not a lot of those spots available.

Corporate, all over the map. I have friends that love their jobs and have good time off and pay, others hate it being gone 3/4 of the month and a self important boss who holds their employment over their heads on a whim.

Bottom line, I love my job. Fly cool stuff to cool places. Not real impressed with my career to say it nicely. Fly because you love it and time away and low pay is acceptable whether it really comes to that or not.

Good luck
Mark
 
It can be done without racking up a socking great debt.
When I started flying I had no intention of making it a career. I got my PPL (1988) for fun and flew for a while but got weathered in trying to leave somewhere once so I got my INST (1989). Flew for a while more and then got my COM (1991) because it looked like fun. The examiner who gave me those three checkrides suggested I look into aviation as a career. I researched my options and decided the civilian route was my best option. Got my CFI (later 1991) and started teaching. Working at the flight school got me a better rate on the airplanes and instruction was free so adding CFII, ME, MEI was not bad. Again, I did all this slowly and paid as I went so there would be no debt but I didn't drive a new car or take vacations either. All my spare cash went to flying. When I had enough time I thought I was competitive (about 2500TT, 200 multi) I got my ATP (1994) and started sending our resumes to commuters. Figured that was the easiest route to rack up multi turbine time quickly. Got hired by a commuter (1994) and laid on 1400 hours in about two years. I enjoyed it but learned I didn't care for the airline lifestyle. Sent out a resume to a corporate operator back home and got hired (1996).

I just went and looked at my old logbooks. I have never noticed it before but it was exactly four years to the day between my Commercial checkride, where the Examiner said I should think about aviation as a career, and my first flight with the commuter airline. Why do I mention that? I considered that period my aviation college. I was learning something I was interested in, I was poor (all my spare cash went to flying), I drove an old car and didn't join my friends when they went to vegas or hawaii. I consider the 18 months at the commuter my grad school. I was doing the job, still poor, still driving the same old car and still living like a college student but at the end of that I had a real job.

To sum up. It can be done without taking on a huge debt but it will take time and resources from other things. You have to be motivated and focused on the end goal. It will be painful and long but the payoff is worth it.
 
You'll tire of the rat race for sure. I began in aerial application because it's what I wanted to do. DO NOT look at a job spraying to "build time". It's not the kind of job someone is going to hire you for to be seat meat. It's very demanding and you must be the right kind of person to do it well and survive (literally...not kill yourself).

Then I got a pilot training slot through the Air National Guard. It's very competitive and you must be very committed to get selected for pilot training but if you're qualified and you put your mind to it you definitely can succeed. I don't know how the civillian folks survive getting to ATP minimums on the kind of pay the regionals or any other entry job provides. Heck, nowadays even the regionals want ATP minimums so what are you supposed to do to get them? Anyway, all my friends in the airlines absolutely hate it. Most of the guys I work with at the Guard are furloughed or on voluntary military leave. I'm not an airline guy so I can't speak to it.

You mentioned nursing school. Hear me out. My wife was an RN and went back to school to be a Nurse Practitioner. 2.5 yrs of schooling and BAM instant six figure salary. Another 2 yrs for her doctorate and BAM, double that. Soooooo...all it takes is a few years of school in an industry that is absolutely starving for people and you'll make major airline senior captain money and then some. Buy an airplane. Laugh at the airline pilots.
 
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As for aerospace engineering, while it's often fun it's not particularly stable. And it's not closely related to aviation except for a few specialties. Darn few aerospace engineers get to fly, and fewer are PIC.

On the other hand, if you're a born-to-it engineer, that is, an engineer by birth, then that's the only alternative available.

Otherwise, look elsewhere.

Dave
 
ATC

If ATC really interests you and you want to know a little about the current road to get there send me a message. I'm walking down the path right now. I too wanted to be a career pilot when I first started college. At that age I believed ALL the hype the aviation schools were giving off about how you can graduate and be sitting in a right seat the day after you finish. Of course there are some that do land flying jobs right off the bat, but my observation of aviation (other careers too) is that it's all about WHO you know not WHAT you know.
 
If you are good with science and math, become an aernautical engineer. Become a pilot if it furthers your engineering career. I have been a professional pilot for 22 years, it doesn't pay. Unless you are fortunate enough to be at one of three companies, and if you are still making good money as a pilot, that means you have a target on your back.:(
 
WOW thanks for all the replies!! I have been out on emergancies all day, just made it back to the station.

Smilin' Jack _
I have my dream, but it sucks that the aviation industy is the way it is. Its hard to Make it on 20K a year and no telling where I would relocate to have to fly a 135 cargo gig.

John Clark _
I have been lucky to make good contacts aroung the airport, one day they may lead to something.. There is a guy an hour north of me that had just completed his private helicopter, well there was a wealthy man at the airport and had just bought a R66 and was looking for a pilot.. long story short, he got all his next ratings paid for and flies the guy around all over, they just bought a MD530.. Sweet bird

LAMPSguy _
Thanks for the kind words, My "little" sister just turned 15 and got her learners permit. I have convinced myself im getting old lol
I Have a good friend that is 42 and going back to school because he hates flying, he dont even like getting in an airplane. He has been dusting since he was 22 but being away from home took its toll.. I hope I never get to that.
I notice that you have multiple helicopter ratings, can you inform me about the helicopter industry vs fixed wing?

terrykholer _
I had looked into ATC about a year ago, I used to hang out in the Radar Room at my local airport. I was amazed at the work they do. I am going to check into it again. I love everything about aviation. Thanks for the advice

Nick _
Sent you a PM. Airlines are def not glorious. But Right now I am the fastest ambulance driver in Allen Parish, LA LOL.

Daniel S. _
That seems more like the thing to do is LIVE TO FLY! IM hoping to finish My -4 in a few years and hopefully that will be my thrill while im making money elsewhere.

RV Wannabe _
Dont worry about crashing my dream, Thats whats the thread is for. I want to know First hand from other people, and nobody can tell you more about it than the people that have tried.. I did maintinance on the Fed-EX Airbus. I talked to every pilot I could and they all said that they have worked for airlines and that FE was they best flying job they ever had. I want to have a great job and great pay but the aviation industry doesnt offer those to often.. Seems the ones that make the big bucks get treated like a pilot drone. Thanks for the reply

xblueh2o _
Time seems to be the only way to do it without debt, But even thinking about it renting a 152 where I live is $110 hr wet. There is nothing else but a few 172s that are $145+. Its so hard to not go broke flying. I flew 6 months ago and went for 2 hours. Afterwards when I emptied my wallet it really made me think of how much getting the needed "schooling" for this career would cost.

cropdusterdave _
I worked for a flying service for almost 2 years and we operated the largest fleet of radial B Model ag cats in La. I would fly for a t least a few seasons to get time In until i could fly turbines. I talked to a good friend the other day that has flown ag for 20yrs and quit flying because he was tired of being away from home. He was flying a AT502 and has tons of time but it makes him sick to look at an airplane now.. i dont want to get to that point.
I love medicine and have seriously considered going the same route that your wife went.

David Paule _
I look hard at engineering, Quickly figured out that it wasnt my cup of tea for the amount of pay and lack of job stability.. When you do get the occasional "cool" job it might pay off but those seem few and far between.

Thanks for all the replies!
 
If ATC really interests you and you want to know a little about the current road to get there send me a message. I'm walking down the path right now. I too wanted to be a career pilot when I first started college. At that age I believed ALL the hype the aviation schools were giving off about how you can graduate and be sitting in a right seat the day after you finish. Of course there are some that do land flying jobs right off the bat, but my observation of aviation (other careers too) is that it's all about WHO you know not WHAT you know.

Sending you a PM
 
Make it a desk job

My advice, worth everything you paid for it:

If you're young and you want to get paid to fly airplanes, get into the military and fly drones. When and if you get out, you will write your own ticket either managing semi-autonomous aircraft or working for companies that build or fly them. Eventually that will include most sectors of aviation.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
Hi Tyler

I've been following this thread and finally decided to add my .02c.

I'm fortunate in that I decided to move to Georgia from California when I got my first ag pilot seat here and just decided to make this my home, rather than become a wandering, seasonal ag pilot. Despite divorces and tough years, I've raised three kids and still fly often.

This is a really tough business to break into but we need younger guys. If at all possible, come to Savannah, Ga the first week of December for our NAAA convention at the Westin hotel. There will be at a minimum, 8 airplanes inside, since they agreed to cut a 60' hole in the back, so we would return there, after 2010. plus 140+ vendors.

There is a program designed specifically for wannabe ag pilots, and it's interactive with many of us old salts adding to the experience.

Visit www.agairupdate.com, owned by my good friend Bill Lavender, who has many ag years under his belt too, and recently soloed a P-51!!

Best,
 
I seem to be in the minority, but I fly for a regional airline. I live in base and spent over a year on reserve. Living in base is key, you can have an excellent quality of life if you live in base. If want to fly, fly, you want time off don't profer for anything. I've had a month off and been paid for it cause I didn't get called for any flying. I can bid my schedule to get 8-9 days off in a row several times a year. Plus there is vacation on top of this! I'm on track to fly about 600 hours this year and I've enjoyed every minute. Jumpseating to go visit places is so indescribeable. Flight bennies for family aren't what they used to be, but you can do your homework and get to where you want to go.
This is probably the best time to get into the profession due to the upcoming retirements. The downside is the days of getting a job with 500 hours are over, you will need ATP mins for an airline job or 1200 hours for 135 mins. There is going to be a shortage of pilots with those quals willing to work for peanuts so the regionals will have to do something with the pay. Some are already offering hiring bonuses.
Now thus job is not for everyone, I know several people who quit in training cause they decided it wasn't for them. But do your research and know what you're getting into.
 
You have to ask yourself "where do I see myself in 20 years"? Do see yourself as a captain on a 787? It's a realistic goal. Yes, you will have to suffer the long hours, low pay and lousy working conditions to get there. I fly for a regional airline. It's not bad. Things could be better, but I still love my job. On the other hand, there are other jobs in Aviation that also would be interesting. Mostly likely they will pay more initially. Pilot pay starts really low, but in time, I am sure it will surpass any other aviation related career you would choose. If your dream is to fly, I am pretty sure you won't be satisfied doing something else. I understand the whole "making money" lure. I just don't buy into it. There are some pretty miserable people making lot's of money. The career outlook for pilots is better than it's ever been. I believe the worst days are gone. Maybe the best are gone also, but where we end up won't be bad.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo/pilot_technician_outlook.html[/URL]
 
2 opinions

So I have two comments (perhaps 3 by the time I get done typing)

Over heard in an airport diner (honest) ...

There is an airline pilot sitting, having lunch and he's dressed for work. There is a mother with a small boy at a near by table. The boy can't take his eye off the airline pilot. Finally the boy asks his mom and she says yes so the boy jumps down and walks over the the pilot. "Sir, are you a real pilot?" "Yes". "Wow! I want to fly airplanes when I grow up!" "Son, it's important that you stay in school and get good grades. That way you can get into a good college and earn a degree so you can get a job, make lots of money and buy your own 'dang' airplane!" (Shock on the face of the boy ... And his mom) the airline pilot went back to eating lunch.

There is a lot of truth to what the airline pilot said.

If you have the dream and the desire, I know a lot of corporate pilots who are living their dream. Nearly all of them were flight instructors and got their "big break" because of their social network - for all of them, it was a combination or being prepared, being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people. You can do all of those. There was no "born with a silver spoon" for any of the guys (men and women). They wanted it and did what they needed to do and held out for their dream.

That said, the jobs they currently have mean random schedules, lots of time away from home, but some really cool places. Aka trade-offs.

That third thing? Well, if Ag or Aerial firefighting are your dream, follow Pierre's advice. I personally know the very last Ag pilot in my area and there is no one to take over the business when he retires (which will be soon). There are businesses just like his that stay local and don't require a nomadic life. It's hard work and its a lot more that just flying. It's running a business. Much like my thoughts on breaking into corporate flying - get to know the right people long before you are right for the job.
 
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I commend your burning desire to seek a career in aviation. First of all you must recognize it is a very fragile profession. There are many variables that can lead to an early termination of your career. As long as you are aware of and also PREPARED for the potential pitfalls, press on!

You did not mention your education level. It is important to have a marketable backup career (or at least a backup career interest) in your pocket, a career field that can provide a reasonable standard of living if for some reason you can no longer fly.

Since you ruled out my first choice, military aviation, I might suggest your quickest path to an entry level career is to at least obtain the commercial rating with a second class medical. With those certificates in hand, you would qualify to begin earning a living in aviation. Of course, finances permitting, more ratings would open more doors.

Take a look at your local Civil Air Patrol. You could join and begin gaining flight experience during their patrols. Also, with a commercial rating in hand, consider flying glider tows or parachute jumpers...you would earn a few bucks an hour plus build at least 15 to 20 hours of flight time each weekend.

You also mentioned pipeline patrol as an option. It is a great way to build time. I have a friend with 15 years of pipeline patrol experience. If interested, I could put you in touch with him for some input.

Another option, come out to Charleston, SC!!! Boeing is hiring and you could become part of the 787 Team. You would have good pay, benefits, while working on your flight ratings. In the mean time, perhaps Pierre could get you hooked up in the Ag community!;)

Wishing you the best of luck in the pursuit of your career aspirations.

Regards,
 
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Keep your dream and hold on to your vision

Tyler,
You are a very smart young man to reach out for some good advice from us who walked the road. I can tell you it was and still is worth it.
Though my road did not turn out exactly what I thought it would be but I am flying and still LOVE what I am doing. When I was reading the things of my fellow pilots here I think you are getting a very good picture of the real world and I can see you are already systematically analyzing there words of advice.

I am a corporate pilot and keep having to pinch myself, "is it real?" and sometimes just can't believe it that I am really doing it.
It was a long road to here but I had two major goals in life along side to that pursue of my dream.
1. Enjoy what you are doing right now, and if you don't like what you are doing change it!
2. Don't get into debt at all cost possible!!!!

To point one:
This is what I would tell my son, all you have is today, there is no guaranty for tomorrow, you have a dream and you have to pursue it today. Yes you have to plan for the future but you need to live today and you want to be happy. Only you know what makes you happy, and you read and can pick out a lot of great things hear on that thread.
Is it worth to you to sacrifice happiness today to MAYBE have a great job in twenty years? Maybe! Only you can answer that.
To point two:
Life is full of so many uncertainties, especially in tough economic times as we are living in right now. Debt is a recipe for unhappiness, you can ask anyone how is there. I have been there!!! Stay away from debt as far as you can.

To be at the right place at the right time is key and you can see that on here too. I can testify to that as well and know many others how have the same testimony. You are doing the right thing already. One more, be very careful and listen to your heart and to your wife. If you don't you can and most likely will lose both! Many times losing one will make you lose the other too. What you are left with is not much. You may still love flying......but are you happy?

My whole family is in the medical field and my dad, a retired RN, alway said, "there will always be sick people". He was never out on furlough, never laid off because the company was downsizing. He was and is still happy and now already 50 years happily married too.
I did not listen to him and had to go the hard way. I just could not do the medical thing, not everyone can. My brother did listen and he and his M.D wife are doing well and have another baby on the way.
Sounds you have a feel for the medical field already.

When I look back now I could not duplicate the way I went. I couldn't tell you to do this or that and you get there. You hear that everyone of us career guys have a different story and so will you.

I agree with you that aviation is a great field to work in, I am doing it now for 16 years since I came to this country, but if I would not have listened to my heart I would have never made it.
I believe I had one thing going for me though: I know and believe that my creator had a plan with me and put a dream in me and I wanted it so bad that I just could not help myself but follow that desire in my heart. HE talked to me by putting things in my heart that I just simply followed. Sometimes I ignored those feelings and had to pay for it, but in the end He brought me right around full circle and I am thankful to him for that.

Be blessed and good luck
 
Nick - I have honestly thought about ATC. What do you have to do to get a job in ATC?
It looks like you're doing a good job thinking ahead. I was surprised to find that, except with a couple exceptions, you cannot be older than 30 or 31 if you want to get started on a career in ATC. By the time I figured out I might like an aviation-related career, I was already too old for that.
 
Hey been away from the computer for a few days.. I really appreciate all the input I got from all sides of the aviation industry..

Bob Kuykendall_
I have seen the Drone Pilot jobs listed from lockheed and a few other companies to civilians. The requirements listed didnt seem to big, I figured maybe they want to train you they way they want and dont want someone that is too set in their ways.

pierre smith_
I have always been interested in flying ag. I would love to make it to that convention, it not this year next. I have looked into a few ag schools, flying tiger here in la and the other one in Ga (cant recall the name). How would I get a seat as a low time pilot flying ag?

FL370_
All the research I have done keeps telling me to stay away from the regionals. I dont want to spend a ton of money for the flight time required to get there and then have to work for peanuts and struggle to pay debt back. I wish there was a balance to the industry. 100k of school and a 20k a year salary doesnt intice me.. expecially with the risk of layoffs.. then I would be screwed..

apkp777_
I would love to be a 787 Captian. But Thats a long road, Im hoping to get one of the more interesting jobs in aviation.. I would love to fly for low pay but love dont pay the bills. One way or another is its meant to be it will happen..

humptybump_
I have good friends that would have said the same thing to the kid, Who knows it might have been them lol..
I would love to get a job that i can at least live off of the wages and also see different places eventually.

DAGO_
Fragile sometime seem to be quite the understatment. I have multible backup career options that I can easily start if needed. I was a civil air patrol cadet and have looked into becoming a senior member, to be able to fly with our chapter has quite a bit of red tape.. I would love to do skydive, towing, or anything that could get extra time.. I would love to take you up on your offer to get in touch with your buddy in pipeline patrol. Can you ellaberate a little more on the Boeing gig? Thanks for the help!

flywithme623_
Thats what I want, I want to pinch myself and see if im really at work.. Your dad is right, There will always be sick people and that would be a very stable career. Im gonna take the time to see what I feel led to do.. That way i will have no question. Thanks for the words! every little bit from different angles helps.

alpinelikespilot2000_
Im trying to hurry, lol. It seems I have 9-10 years to get it done..
 
Diversify...

You've received some great advice. I have a taken a slightly different tack on the aviation career. What I've ended up with is multiple "jobs" that add up to an overall aviation career. I started a common civilian route...lineman during college (Aviation Mgmt Degree), CFI, right-seat in a King Air air ambulance, charter, back to air ambulance but in the left seat (fun job that might fit your combined interests). The downside was getting laid off when the hospital contract went away.

We then moved to a town with my wife's job where the air ambulance gig isn't a realistic option (long commute). I'm now the airport manager in our small town, I do pilot service for a few local businesses (light twins & singles), a little CFI work, and fly my RV-4 for giggles. None of these would provide a good income, but the mixture is okay financially and keeps things entertaining.

I have a friend in a small town in Western Kansas who has a very similar setup, plus he is also Director of EMS for his community. In other words, get your ratings so that you can fly and then use your diverse skill set to put together a career that includes flying and other areas you might enjoy. There is a certain stability in diverse income streams, so don't think about "jobs" in too narrow of a sense.

Just one more way to skin the flying cat.

Oh, I almost forgot....a common option among pilots I know...marry well. My wife was working on her Phd when we met and it is finally paying off. You can be a little choosier about jobs, and the inevitable layoffs don't hurt so bad, when you're not the primary income earner.

Good luck out there!
 
Uncle Sam Wants You

This is easy...

Join the Air Force!

See the world. Fly jets. Fight evil. Make good money. Women will love you and men will want to be you.

What else could you possibly want?!

-Matt
402BD
 
Matt_
Uncle Sam told me I was a fat A**.. And im married so I dont think my wife would be to keen on the idea lol. Besides the chances of getting into OCS and to flight school are getting slim to none..
 
Another perspective

Here's two additional thoughts on the aviation job front.

1) The ATC route is not a bad way to go. Think of a career, with retirement, where you can still do flying on the side to build time.

I have a neighbor (RV7A) owner who has been doing ATC for 25+ years. He is currently at the LA Tracon. He is working 6 days weeks most of the time. With OT he will make well over $200K a year.

I know a couple of ATC guys that are/were CFI's. They instructed on the side and built time. A couple of guys got into flying jobs on the side and later after retirement ATC flew full time.

2) Consider helicopters. I fly medical helicopters. This is my retirement job after 30 years in law enforcement. We have many young pilots, under 30 who are making lots of money, flying incredible equipment and enjoying their jobs.

Most got all of their ratings through CFI/CFII. Then they spent a year instructing to get the magic 1000 hours. From there, the tour companies in Vegas and the Grand Canyon will hire 1000 hour pilots and give them a turbine transition to fly tours. There they will get 1000 hours of turbine time in a year and now have enough hours to get a job almost anywhere. This will get you $60,000 plus. In tour work you can get another $15k in tips.

The airline route is tough, pays ****, and is a long road with no specific guarantees.

Pursue your dreams but carefully evaluate the options.
 
Become a plumber, grow a business, buy a plane. And I'm not joking. Alternate field - HVAC tech.

Coast Guard seems to like to grow their own. Enlist, play smart, work hard, get a college degree, apply for flight school, get a federal retirement. I believe (don't know but suspect) you can move between federal agencies from USCG. Almost guaranteed to sleep in your own bed each night and goodness knows the Federal police (DHS) is growing their ranks rapidly.
 
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I did it and love it.

Tyler,

As someone who made a mid-life career change, I also admire you for looking into this to pursue you passion.

I studied Engineering and was in the middle of a successful engineering career when I made the jump. This is significant for several reasons. The first and most important is that I have a backup plan. I can go back to engineering if I ever get furloughed. Secondly, this allowed me to buy a partnership in a used airplane to get my ratings and build hours. I flew part time as a flight instructor to both build time and save up for the expensive twin training. Finally, I was able to put aside some money to make it through the first year.

I fly for a regional, and enjoy it thoroughly. I fly both the shorter routes and longer ones; some days I stay in the state, and on some four day trips I've flown El Paso to Canada and hit SFO and Washington DC. The first year pay is just over $20K as you've heard, but almost doubles the second year. Six years into it, and I'm a Captain, living in domicile making over $85k per year. I will probably make the jump to Delta or Southwest if they'll take me, where I get to start all over again. It's the nature of the business. I still don't make what I made in engineering, but then I don't work anymore, I get paid to fly airplanes.

Do not go into debt to finance this career, there are other ways to get into it. Contact me offline and we can discuss further if you'd like.


David Dalton
[email protected]
 
I guess I'm going to be one of the few who think flying for a living is hard to beat. I've had a great career - 27 years with Delta and then six years flying a Sovereign and Falcon 900 for a local company. I know things have changed, but I still believe that any job flying is better than any other job. I had to work my way through low/no pay to build flying time, but it payed off and gave me a career I wouldn't trade for anything. My only regret is not staying in the cockpit longer. I'm finishing out my work life as a technical pilot in Flight Operatios Support for GE, so I'm now flying a desk. My wife likes that I'm home every night, but its hard not to gaze out the window and wish I was airborne. I think there is still a chance the pilot career could return to a form of its glory days. There is starting to become a worldwide shortage of qualified pilots - not here in the states yet, but it is coming. Many of our GE customers in Asia and the Middle East are having difficulty finding experienced pilots right now. A lot of their Captains are ex-pats from the US that came from the majors - like me, but we are getting too old to be the answer much longer. There are more airliners (and engines) on order right now from foreign carriers than there ever has been. The US domestic carriers will be in that same position soon and will be forced to rob the cockpits of the regionals and the regionals won't be able to hire replacements, because there aren't any.
If you really want a flying career, I think there is opportunity and it might not be as negative as many pilots have experienced the last few years. The major airlines pay more than corporate on average, but a good corporate flying job is still a very good job to have. My corporate flying was some of the most fun and interesting of my life. You are young and have time on your side. Do what makes you happy.
 
Thanks Again!

To Everyone that commented on my post, THANKS!!

I didnt think I would get this much feedback. I am very glad that I now have a full perspective from people that have been in all different parts of aviation. How ever I decide to do this i will now have the knowledge I need to go about it.

Thanks Again,
Tyler Arnold
 
i went so far as going through officer candidate school for the marine corps to try and satisfy my dream of flying and i was also pursuing a degree in aviation science at a top 4-year collegiate aviation program. after seeing classmates struggle to gain employment and hearing all of the horror stories coming in from the regionals and listening to "belly up" news over and over, i took the easy route and went ATC.

it's not exactly as cool as flying fighters, but i can afford to build an RV!

there are 2 year schools out there, but it's **** or get off the pot time... hiring will be slowing dramatically over the next 5 years.
 
The one piece of advice I have is to expect to have to work hard and take time to get where you ultimately want to go. A few lucky pilots stumble into fabulous jobs very quickly by being at the right place at the right time. The rest of us have to struggle against reality not meeting expectations. I will say that it is unfair to write off the regional industry as low pay and ROI. You don't have to spend $100,000 to get into it, particularly if you will have access to your own aircraft. My husband and I fly for the same regional airline as Beer30, and can verify that within a year, the pay is closer to $50K as a first officer. It won't make you a 1%er, but you aren't living in poverty unless you have amassed a mountain of debt. Moreover, you are getting paid to accumulate valuable experience that can be applied to corporate or commercial flying down the road.

The bottom line is that you have to do what you're already doing (asking for advice from those who have come up before you), but you need to keep an open mind, as well. Very few of us end up where we were expecting to be, it's just not that kind of industry (and that's probably really true of ANY career, anyway). But if you really want to fly then ignore the naysayers, because as a previous poster noted, you won't be happy doing anything else.
 
I've been at the regionals for 13 years and regularly fly with 5 year F.O.s. Not a single one of them is making 50K a year!

Want more convincing to NOT become a pro pilot? Visit the forums at www.airlinepilotcentral.com and read about how just about EVERYBODY is trying to get out of the pilot profession.

The regionals are a 'race to the bottom'. The business model is simple. Once a regional airline starts to cost too much to run, shut it down and start a new one to undercut the last. Now, instead of paying captains at 10 year pay, they can now pay captains at 1-2 year pay. It happens over and over again.

I remember in college 15 years ago the schools really marketing this idea of a pilot shortage. I'm still waiting...

What do you think your chances are of getting to a major? Every single regional pilot out there now (10,000?) will be trying for those available positions. Do you think you will get hired before them? Nope. So in 10 years when you have the same flight time everyone else has now, the hiring 'boom' will be over.

I sincerely wish you the best in your career. The guy here that recommended flying drones and then writing your own ticket to work anywhere was right on! If I was younger, that would be my path.
 
Thinking that ag flying is a good place to quickly build flight time is a big misconception. Getting a good ag seat will take more effort than an airline seat. Ag flying requires a very specific skill set where precision is key and a working knowledge of agricultural is required. A screw-up while doing any type of application could cost thousands of dollars in drift claims. Additionally, many pilots aren't fit enough to survive the demanding 15 hour days of a California rice season. The day the season begins you are already a week behind.
The "bus driver" label on airline pilots is now and has always been total horse**** and insulting. Yeah, flying a $200.000.000 jet at 600 mph to Hong Kong for a two day layover is boring, really? Man, you must be the most interesting man in the world if you honestly believe that.
I too lost my good airline job some time ago but I would not trade it or my ag time for anything and flying little airplanes on weekends is no substitute for a professional flying career.
If you want to spend your life in the cockpit go to school and do it. If you want to be an ATC controler, send Obama a resume.

Dennis
RV-8 QB, FST BK
 
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