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Rear Seat Throttle - an Alternative

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
When I built my -8, I made the conscious decision to not add rear seat rudder peddles or throttle control. I looked at the available options (a little bit flaky), as well as the potential for their use (very remote), and decided that it simply wasn't worthwhile for my purposes. Having a stick back there so that the occasional passenger could experience the superb handling qualities was enough.

Recently, I took another RV pilot flying, and her only comment on not having the throttle was "Well, what do I do if something happens to you - fly around until it runs out of gas, and then dead-stick?" Well, she had a point, and gave me something to brainstorm on during the next few long cross-country legs. I wondered if it would be possible to easily provide a rear seat throttle capability to an existing plane with zero impact to the existing design, and very low cost. What I was thinking about was basically a piece of cockpit equipment - not a mod to the airplane.

In the Space Shuttle, we carry a device we call the "swizzle stick" - a telescoping rod with a little fixture on the end that is useful for reaching switches and circuit breakers when you're strapped in tight and wearing a pumpkin suit. A little more thinking, and a look at my DJM throttle quadrant, and I came up with the following Custom-Made, RV-8, Rear Seat Throttle Manipulator! Constructed from the finest materials available at Home Depot Aviation Supply (0.5" aluminum tube, 3/8" aluminum rod for the hook, and a wooden knob painted with genuine black Krylon - primed, of course!), it hangs from a small Velcro strap attached to the mid-body brace and hooks into the hollow end of the throttle handle. A neoprene wrap on the end of the "L" covered in heat shrink tubing matches the inside diameter of the throttle handle and allows it to stay put while being flexible. The rear seat passenger can install this without aid if needed, or it can be rigged before flight, and doesn't get in the pilot's way.

So...if you have a completed RV-8 and really want a rear seat throttle that one time out of 500 flights....here's an idea for you. Pictures pretty much explain it all. Kits will not be made available, Royalty fee of one Diet Coke will be expected for every one that I see at fly-ins.... ;)

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I know my place

pierre smith said:
Paul, Paul,
You should just let her fly from the front..... :D

The Valkyrie? I think not! There are a few things a woman should never accept from a man. Especially a woman with under 1000 hours and no 8-time. ;)
 
Louise Hose said:
The Valkyrie? I think not! There are a few things a woman should never accept from a man. Especially a woman with under 1000 hours and no 8-time. ;)

Well, I've flown with Louise in her own -6....(I ALMOST landed it!)....and I'm happy riding as her passenger....what's that bumper sticker I've seen "A woman's place is in the cockpit!"? ;)

Hmmmm....but come to think of it, I haven't yet met a female -8 pilot. I wonder why..... (The big secret? The -8 is the easiest taildragger I've ever flown!)

Oh, the -1 version of the Rear Throttle Manipulator will have a threaded joint in the middle so it can be broken down and stowed....

Paul
 
Rear Throttle

Paul:

I do have the rear throtlle and rudder pedals in mine (RV-8 taildragger). My Wife is getting checked out in an old 1945 L-2 and will eventually fly it from the rear seat to make sure that she has some experience with the rear seat sight picture. Who knows, she may eventially want to fly the 8!

Additionally, I added an autopilot disconnect switch just forward of the bulkhead forward of the rear throttle. If ever I were to be disabled she could turn off the autopilot and land the plane.

The switch is located where it is not normally visible to a passenger.
 
I did something like this a couple of years ago that is a bit more built in but still easily removable. It works quite well and is totally out of the way.


 
This thread is timely for me; I'm right at the point in the build where I should make a rear seat rudder pedal and throttle decision.

For a tailwheel 8, a rear throttle without pedals kinda seems like a method of getting to the scene of the crash. Yes, better than running it out of gas, but it will groundloop and the results will be unpredictable.

Anyone care to share their reasoning for a no-pedal decision? My own hesitation mostly revolves around the idea that the OEM add-on mushroom pedals are almost worthless for serious control. Anybody have a better rear pedal setup?

BTW, I mostly see ME in the back seat guarding an experienced pilot in the front seat on his initial -8 adventure. Secondary consideration is incapacitation of the PIC; medical issue, bird strike, whatever.

BTW, I would do the rear throttle exactly like Tom's. It is out of the way and won't get bumped by a restless GIB. Always makes me jump when the engine changes pitch unexpectedly <g>.
 
DanH said:
This thread is timely for me; I'm right at the point in the build where I should make a rear seat rudder pedal and throttle decision.

For a tailwheel 8, a rear throttle without pedals kinda seems like a method of getting to the scene of the crash. Yes, better than running it out of gas, but it will groundloop and the results will be unpredictable.

Anyone care to share their reasoning for a no-pedal decision? My own hesitation mostly revolves around the idea that the OEM add-on mushroom pedals are almost worthless for serious control. Anybody have a better rear pedal setup?

BTW, I mostly see ME in the back seat guarding an experienced pilot in the front seat on his initial -8 adventure. Secondary consideration is incapacitation of the PIC; medical issue, bird strike, whatever.

BTW, I would do the rear throttle exactly like Tom's. It is out of the way and won't get bumped by a restless GIB. Always makes me jump when the engine changes pitch unexpectedly <g>.

I installed both rear seat throttle and rudder pedals. I've only had one person mess with the throttle. He's an ex-fighter jock and just had to mess with it when he was doing wing-overs and some other stuff. No one else has even asked.

I had the rudder pedals in for about 4 months. My wife is too short and can't reach them. Other long-legged passengers found them too long and uncomfortable. They had to keep their feet in the air and over the pedal "pad". Since they weren't very usable, I took them out.

I'm not inclined to let anyone land from the back anyway. Without that, there no reason for the rudder pedals. I have a constant speed prop. Therefore no need to mess with the throttle while yankin/bankin.

I would just leave them out. Paul, tell your friend to either live without the throttle or find another ride. Just my opinion.

Karl
 
Brilliant!

Paul,

That is an elegantly simple solution to a vexing problem. I have been considering using a croupier's stick, but wasn't sure if it would fit in the hole in the throttle handle(not to mention it is made out of wood rather than aluminum). Does the backseater have any problem with the sensitivity of the throttle---what I mean is, can the backseater make gentle, small adjustments?
 
redbeardmark said:
Does the backseater have any problem with the sensitivity of the throttle---what I mean is, can the backseater make gentle, small adjustments?

I honestly don't know Mark - I haven't tried it in flight yet! I just made the thing the other day....in fact, though, playing with it on the ground, it is quite smooth, but probably this depends on how tight you have the friction lock on the quadrant set.....and at any rate, the original idea was just an emergency way to take power off.

BTW folks, I have no illusions that this is a replacement for a "real" throttle that you would use all the time - or that a landing with no rudder or brakes wouldn't end up in the grass. But hey, it's a fun little idea that satisfies its clearly-defined goals.

Glad some folks enjoy it! ;)

Paul
 
Tom Martin's set up? (below)

Tom - I am interested in the pictures you sent of your rear seat throttle set up. I have been thinking of something similar in a -4 I am building.

My question is this. There is some degree of up and down movement at the quadrant for the rod to the rear seat. Is this allowed for just by installing large bushes in the bulkheads? How large is the front one?

Thanks, Steve.
 
Steve
You are correct, there is some up and down movement of the rod at the forward holes. How much depends on your particular quadrant. In my case I used the same snap bushings that are supplied for the rudder cables. The hole closest to the passenger has a snap bushing that is the same size as the rod. I found the system to work quite well and certainly adequate for occasional use. This was installed so I could check out the new owner. Also he was planning on doing a bit of formation flying and a rear throttle was required for the check ride with the formation pilot.
Personally I do not like rear seat controls and I remove the rear rudder pedals except in the case where someone needs to be checked out in the front. This rear throttle system can also easily be removed by opening the rear baggage area, turning the rod from the front clevis and pulling the rod from through the bulkheads. It takes no more than five minutes to install.
 
Smoothie...

RV8N said:
Paul, tell your friend to either live without the throttle or find another ride. Just my opinion.

Karl

I can see now why you're such a hit with the Ladies! :p
 
Ironflight said:
I can see now why you're such a hit with the Ladies! :p

Its not just ladies that I was referring to. Any pax that wants to experience flying my plane are welcome, just don't expect me to let you do the take-off or landing from the back seat.

Actually, as you know, I am married. My wife loves to fly and has asked the same questions as your friend, that's how I know she can't reach the back seat rudder pedals. She wants to take flying lessons but we have some other financial obligations first... like the girls college fund.

Our long term plan to solve this dilemma is to build something that will have full dual controls. Since our long term plans also include moving to Montana or Idaho, we will eventually build some type of bush plane, currently looking at the Bearhawk. Until then, she will make do from the back seat... and enjoy it. :p
 
possible mod to the mod?

Just thinking about safety here...if you're going to create a breakdown swizzle stick anyway, is there enough metal to tap the throttle handle as well as threading the end of the stick? If so, you could screw them together loosely to allow stick rotation in the hole, and yet completely eliminate the possibility of the stick popping out of the handle's socket in flight. A hinged joint where the stick goes 90 would make this mod really easy to install preflight. However, you probably couldn't do a inflight install without pilot assistance.

Great idea. Too late for me as I've got the factory aft throttle and pedals installed.
 
Of course, this is the beauty of conceptual design - I'm just throwing out a concept (external throttle rod instead of built in, internal...), and folks can come up with more complete and better ideas on their own! I decided not to attach mine at the throttle so that a person in the back seat could insert if in flight if desired - it's just an emergency measure, not intended (by me) to be used for routine flying....I like the idea of the front seater to be able to pull it out instantly for any reason - including interference or a jam.

Of course, I still expect my royalty Coke for any external, removable throttle rods I see at fly-ins...;)
 
....her only comment on not having the throttle was "Well, what do I do if something happens to you - fly around until it runs out of gas, and then dead-stick?"

For a recent demo in an RV-4 that didn't have a rear throttle (nor rear brakes or radios), the same question came up.

We tied a string to the throttle and passed it back to the rear cockpit. It had enough slack so that it didn't interfere with anything. It gave me a one-shot throttle reduction capability that I could use gradually.

Dave
 
Rear seat control access...

As well as handling the throttle, an issue for the rear seat passenger is how to get out of the airplane after a survivable landing. Could this device be adapted for use in opening the canopy?
 
As well as handling the throttle, an issue for the rear seat passenger is how to get out of the airplane after a survivable landing. Could this device be adapted for use in opening the canopy?

Although I have never thought about or tried that, just thinking about it, there should be no reason you couldn't use it to lever open the canopy latch - it's just a long stick!

Paul
 
please repost pics if possible

I'm at that junction where I need to install rear throttle and the swizzle stick or similar options seems like an elegant solution. Mine is a QB and it would certainly be easier to cut the passenger side panel off the plane but that option is not available. Unfortunately this thread is old and the pictures are not available. Paul and others would you mind posting a couple of pictures of your solution. Thanks you.
 
I used 1/4" x .049 wall steel tubing instead of aluminum to reduce the size of the holes thru the bulkheads. I've seen others hang a third pushrod inboard of the bulkhead and cover it with a Z section. The tubing works great, you just have to drill it out to the tap drill size and tap each end for the fittings. I think I used ready rod to suit the fittings in the kit...

Assembling everything once the side panels are in place, and inserting the pins and cotters takes a bit of dexterity, and a good collection of colourful words...





 
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RV-8

Hi Ron,
I'm still trying to figure out a nice way of doing rear seat rudder pedals for my rv-8 and I thought that you might have done a version for your plane. Is that true?
Best regards,
Peter
 
Anyone know where I can find Paul's or Dan's photos? They don't seem to show up in this old thread. Thanks!
 
Anyone know where I can find Paul's or Dan's photos? They don't seem to show up in this old thread. Thanks!

Don't think mine were ever in this thread, but for you, no problem!
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Anyone know where I can find Paul's or Dan's photos? They don't seem to show up in this old thread. Thanks!

I have no idea where my originals might be, but honestly - its a stick with a ball on one end, and a right-angle hook on the other….. the stick is an aluminum tube about 3/8” OD, the ball is a wooden 3/4” ball from the craft store, and the hook is just aluminum rod bent into a right angle….
 
I have no idea where my originals might be, but honestly - its a stick with a ball on one end, and a right-angle hook on the other….. the stick is an aluminum tube about 3/8” OD, the ball is a wooden 3/4” ball from the craft store, and the hook is just aluminum rod bent into a right angle….

Thanks Paul, I think I can visualize it. I believe I've seen something similar in other tandem aircraft.
 
There's was a F-16 accident where the pilot ended up ejecting after banging a throttle-shaped indent in his metal suitcase that had slid infront of the rear throttle when it was at idle. I have a similar setup to DanH, however I have it attached up front with a cotter pin and remove and slide back the rear throttle rod when not in use. Just my 2 cents!

-Fitz
 
There's was a F-16 accident where the pilot ended up ejecting after banging a throttle-shaped indent in his metal suitcase that had slid infront of the rear throttle when it was at idle. I have a similar setup to DanH, however I have it attached up front with a cotter pin and remove and slide back the rear throttle rod when not in use. Just my 2 cents!

-Fitz
Good point. This is also one reason I'm not too excited about rear controls. I'll keep this one in mind if I end up implementing the rear throttle.
 
I bet the suitcase probably wasn’t part of the ops manual. If that is the case, Nothing wrong with the arrangement of the throttle just the operator that put a suitcase in that wasn’t approved. Whether or not it’s common practice doesn’t mean it was engineered for the situation.
 
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