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Nippon Denso Option info needed

Freemasm

Well Known Member
First off, I'll have an electrically dependent aircraft. It will be completely dual, redundant buses, batteries, alts.

That said, can the collective minds here make me smarter about the ND alternator application?

- Since internally regulated, can output V be adjusted?
- Has anyone done the AeroElectric Connection mod for external regulation? Success? Thoughts?
- Experiences that would indicate this is not the right application for such?
- Any reman brands to stay away from?
- Anything else?

I like the B and C offerings but it sure would be nice to save a little cash for once if there's no real impact to safety.

Much thanks

Edit = there would of course be an external crowbar circuit or equal.
 
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Rock AUTO brand new

I bought this to replace my Denso, works perfect so far. Not rebuilt, new.
1989 SUZUKI SIDEKICK 1.3L L4
ACDELCO 3351271 (335-1271) Alternator / Generator $ 105.79 $ 0.00 1 $ 105.79
Shipping Ground $ 13.99
Tax $ 9.58
Order Total $ 129.36
MasterCard -$ 129.36
Balance Due $ 0.00
 
Alternators

The B&C alternators probably are Denso based automotive versions with external regulators. The big advantage is that B&C have done the work to design, build test and qualify (PMA) their regulator. If you want to do all the work to design, build and test your own version of an external regulator or find a low cost drop in alternative it can be done. If you have an all electric airplane configuration with expensive glass displays are you prepared to take the risk of an overvoltage situation with damage to all your electronics? It may or may not be a safety of flight issue - it could be very expensive to repair. Spending the money on a known reliable proven alternator/regulator combination may be the less costly option in the long run. Using a high quality automotive integrated regulator alternator may work acceptably well. You just have to decide how much of a test pilot you want to be.

KT
 
First off, I'll have an electrically dependent aircraft. It will be completely dual, redundant buses, batteries, alts.

That said, can the collective minds here make me smarter about the ND alternator application?

- Since internally regulated, can output V be adjusted?
- Has anyone done the AeroElectric Connection mod for external regulation? Success? Thoughts?
- Experiences that would indicate this is not the right application for such?
- Any reman brands to stay away from?
- Anything else?

I like the B and C offerings but it sure would be nice to save a little cash for once if there's no real impact to safety.

Much thanks

Edit = there would of course be an external crowbar circuit or equal.

There is a alternator shop on Washington Rd just west of I4 will adjust the output voltage on your “tractor’s” alternator if you need it higher than 14.2v.

As for the int/ext regulator debate, I wonder how all of the electronics and flat panel displays continue to operate in cars today, with quite a few using internal regulators.
 
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There is a alternator shop on Washington Rd just west of I4 will adjust the output voltage on your “tractor’s” alternator if you need it higher than 14.2v.

As for the int/ext regulator debate, I wonder how all of the electronics and flat panel displays continue to operate in cars today, with quite a few using internal regulators.

It's called a tow truck...:eek:
 
Bad Business

Alternators in the aftermarket are a commodity, lowest cost wins. There are many manufacturers of cloned components and they (all) don't have the quality control and component validation of the ND original supply chain. Some may, but unless one is buying thousands, you would probably never find out.

The detail and rigor involved in manufacturing a reliable and durable alternator (or any product) is a high bar and typically the purview of 300,000/yr + in volume for each specific component. Event at that you would not believe what you learn if you begin making 1 million pieces a year. You just can not afford to make poor quality. A day or hour of lost production due to an issue caught in final test is just a poor use of capital. Of huge piles of parts are accumulated and scrapped if found down the line. Assembly, QC testing etc.

Will-Fit (WF) alternators remanufactured for the lowest cost abound at the local autoparts stores. Even "new" ones cloned parts, but at least they are all new parts. They go in old vehicles that won't need the warranty anyway.

If one wanted "the best" it would be from a quality company (ND) and manufactured or remanufactured by them. Then modified for aircraft usage in a proven manner. That IMO, is B&C. . . . like keitht says.

I think I am the greatest - but reality is it would take time and money to do this on ones own - - not worth the effort (again IMO) unless you want to try and replace PP or B&C. PP seemingly has a poor track record, but they still sell a lot of alternators.

Lets say Vans sells 4000 kits, 2000 get finished, so 2000/yr need alternators. 1/3 get PP, 1/3 get automotive, and 1/3 gets B&C. At the rate of hour accumulator for the field PP gets replaced most often. With mean time to overhaul or replacement of 500 hrs, it is a long time before and RV accumulates that but 20% of 10,000 is 2000/yr. Magic and reality meet.

Can "it" be done, yes, build a great process, design and QC, build a rep, then sell the company (process and market really) to a big name. Just my 2 cents.

When I build an airplane again it will be a B&C with a monkworkz backup. The backup must have higher reliability and durability than the prime. Maybe Bill will have a higher power by then. This approach is simple and reliable. Then only a relay can fail.
 
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The B&C alternators probably are Denso based automotive versions with external regulators. The big advantage is that B&C have done the work to design, build test and qualify (PMA) their regulator. If you want to do all the work to design, build and test your own version of an external regulator or find a low cost drop in alternative it can be done. If you have an all electric airplane configuration with expensive glass displays are you prepared to take the risk of an overvoltage situation with damage to all your electronics? It may or may not be a safety of flight issue - it could be very expensive to repair. Spending the money on a known reliable proven alternator/regulator combination may be the less costly option in the long run. Using a high quality automotive integrated regulator alternator may work acceptably well. You just have to decide how much of a test pilot you want to be.

KT
Agree 100% with this. I went with the automotive Denso alternator when I first built my RV-10. I got 90 hours out of it before it internally self destructed on a cross country flight. I managed to get home on my dual battery power. Replaced with a B&C setup and never looked back. Put a B&C on my RV-9A project . I can not imagine relying on automotive alternator's in a electronically dependent aircraft.
That being said, there are many members on this forum that have had great success using the automotive internally regulated alternators. My experience soured me on using them.
 
Agree 100% with this. I went with the automotive Denso alternator when I first built my RV-10. I got 90 hours out of it before it internally self destructed on a cross country flight. I managed to get home on my dual battery power. Replaced with a B&C setup and never looked back. Put a B&C on my RV-9A project . I can not imagine relying on automotive alternator's in a electronically dependent aircraft.
That being said, there are many members on this forum that have had great success using the automotive internally regulated alternators. My experience soured me on using them.

I like the denso externally regulated alt's with either a B&C regulator or other quality aftermarket regulator. 800 uneventfull hours with this on the 6 and 250 on the 10. I would not buy an after market internally regulated unit for a plane. I buy alternators that were rebuilt by ND. It provides a MUCH higher quality level and still under $100.

Larry
 
- Has anyone done the AeroElectric Connection mod for external regulation? Success? Thoughts?
- Experiences that would indicate this is not the right application for such?
- Any reman brands to stay away from?
- Anything else?

Scott, for what it's worth I'm along with you regarding the B&C alternator option. There are a lot of discussions about the mod and how it compares to a B&C and others, just no hard evidence to compare apples to apples IMHO. I do like their stuff and used some myself.

My -7 is running a NAPA Duralast Gold New Alternator 14684N (about $150) with the AeroElectric mod done to allow external regulation. The B&C LR3D-14 Alternator Controller/Regulator 14V, controls the voltage and is adjustable (lots more on their site). The AE mod was a fun little project that seems to work just fine after 170 hours ... no issues. No rocket science project level skills required. Solid volts and good charging on two PC680 batteries.

I chose to spring for a new alternator vice a rebuild, so your call there. Cost difference is small.

The basic electrical architecture of my aircraft is based on the Z-19, Dual Battery Single Alternator, Electronic controlled Fuel Injection Engine schematic by Bob Nuckolls. I built it just like he describes, and built my own low voltage warning module from off the shelf parts. Lights the low volt light and switches the Main batter to ON when in the AUTO
mode. I have electronic ignition (EFII) with mechanical injection (Bendix type).

If you need more specifics, drop me a line. Cheers
 
Thanks. Keep 'em coming

First off, thanks to all.

As with most things, people tend to fall into distinct sides of a topic. Expected and that’s OK. Some thoughts/questions on some of the replies.

@texdog - Thanks for the alternate alt option. Would prefer new versus rebuilt if I go this way. Already config’d for external regulation would be ideal. Reference below.

@keitht - The big advantage is that B&C have done the work to design, build test and qualify (PMA) their regulator. If you want to do all the work to design, build and test your own version of an external regulator or find a low cost drop in alternative it can be done. If you have an all electric airplane configuration with expensive glass displays are you prepared to take the risk of an overvoltage situation with damage to all your electronics?

That was part of my original question. If I did go the repurposed auto type alt, I would prefer the AEC mod for external regulation and the B&C reg. (see below) Going without OV protection of any sort was never a consideration.

@Cth6 - There is a alternator shop on Washington Rd just west of I4 will adjust the output voltage on your “tractor’s” alternator if you need it higher than 14.2v.

As for the int/ext regulator debate, I wonder how all of the electronics and flat panel displays continue to operate in cars today, with quite a few using internal regulators.


I actually used that place a long time ago to replace the diodes in an alternator. Might have come from a Mooney but you can’t prove that. Alt internal regs have gotten very good. In car applications, it’s not really a concern anymore. It would be very easy to have one exceed their design conditions (i.e. internal cooling) in an aircraft application due to various reasons including (fan) rotational direction. Given the option, I’d still rather have it externally regulated from behind the FW since I assume the electronics are the most delicate part of the assembly.

@BillL and 9GT - Zero arguments here; however, the underlying question is “do I need the best primary alternator (B & C, IMO) if there is redundant batteries, electrical sources, etc? More later.

@lr172 – I like the denso externally regulated alt's with either a B&C regulator or other quality aftermarket regulator. 800 uneventfull hours with this on the 6 and 250 on the 10. I would not buy an after market internally regulated unit for a plane. I buy alternators that were rebuilt by ND. It provides a MUCH higher quality level and still under $100
.
@wcalvert - My -7 is running a NAPA Duralast Gold New Alternator 14684N (about $150) with the AeroElectric mod done to allow external regulation. The B&C LR3D-14 Alternator Controller/Regulator 14V, controls the voltage and is adjustable (lots more on their site). The AE mod was a fun little project that seems to work just fine after 170 hours ... no issues. No rocket science project level skills required. Solid volts and good charging on two PC680 batteries.

I chose to spring for a new alternator vice a rebuild, so your call there. Cost difference is small…


These get to the basis of my potential approach. Better options for the auto alt application with external regulation. Not having to mod the alt for such would be a big time saver. The LR3D was always part of the equation. Linear V control, built-in OV protection and status output from a reputable supplier is a nice combo. More follows

@All - Much thanks for the feedback. While there’s no quick way to quantify this, any associated risk of combining a quality rebuilt or new auto type alt into a dual, redundant electrical architecture does not seem to increase any operational risk levels. Specifically: two healthy 680s, a B&C or Monkworkz standby, and XXX externally reg’d/protected primary alt.

Yes =
in the end, probably only saving $700 or so.

Would rather apply an alt already configured for external regulation.

No =
Would not apply such in an electrically dependent aircraft (mission dependent to some degree of course) without back-up components, circuit protection, and related architecture.

Would like to know =
@lr172 – which Denso alt did you use that was already set-up for external regulation? Any other mods (bracket, etc.) required to make it work?

@Carl Froehlich – (hasn’t responded here) Where/how did you tie the Monkworkz product into your architecture? Manufacturer states load side of master (simplex architecture) but I would expect diode isolation feed to each vital bus?

@All – Let me know where I’m wrong. Again, much thanks.
 
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Scott, also flying an electric dependent plane.

I started with a ND that was modified for external regulation. Mod was from articles in Kitplanes.

Worked just fine for a short time, then started popping the field breaker when shutting down the engine. Details here if you care to read. https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=197571

I finally broke down and bought the B and C alternator and have not had any issues since.

The B and C sitting next to the ND look like twins. Only difference I could see was color and mounting lug locations.

I did not take the time to do a failure analysis ---- just tossed the ND in the trash can.

Just a bit more data for you.
 
Would like to know =
@lr172 – which Denso alt did you use that was already set-up for external regulation? Any other mods (bracket, etc.) required to make it work?

lester 14158. It is ext regulated, 45 amps and counter clockwise rotation (most auto applications are CW). You have to do some digging to find the ND part number for this alt. Once you do, you can find one that was rebuilt by ND. Got my last one from Summit for around $80.

PLug and play with the B&C reg or any other. You can buy the special three spade connector, but I just used two insulated faston connectors for the field and ground.

Larry
 
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lester 14158. It is ext regulated, 45 amps and counter clockwise rotation (most auto applications are CW). You have to do some digging to find the ND part number for this alt. Once you do, you can find one that was rebuilt by ND. Got my last one from Summit for around $80.

PLug and play with the B&C reg or any other. You can buy the special three spade connector, but I just used two insulated faston connectors for the field and ground.

Larry

Do you remember the Summit part number for the ND??
 
ND internal to external

I have an original Vans 60 Amp ND alternator. With an all glass panel, I too am electronically dependent. I became concerned with overvoltage more than failure. I had a total loss of electrical in IMC conditions which was an experience. Fortunately, I would have sporadic moments when my battery would produce enough power to maintain contact with ATC. Broke out with VFR on top and WX cleared shortly thereafter.

After that flight, I installed an emergency backup battery that is independent, a LiFePo4 battery, not connected to my charging system, good for about 1 hour. I also modified my internal regulator to a B & C external regulator. Attached is an article on how to do this. I carry a spare modified internal regulator which can be installed in a few minutes in a replacement alternator which can be purchased at most auto parts stores so the chance of being grounded at an airport are a lot less. Minimal tools required to replace the internal regulator or the alternator.

350 hours with no issues. I always charge my emergency battery at my hangar while outside my plane before any planned trip. Between my Odyssey and LiFePo, I have about 1.5 endurance. Not for everyone but works for me.
 

Attachments

  • Rewiring a Nippondenso Alternator.pdf
    6 MB · Views: 165
Thx Bill. I've already gone there. Hitting every applicable Honda year/model/engine combo, they show no results. Same is true trying to xreference the Lester#. It would appear they've let this model go to the other rebuilder which would be understandable given it's age.
 
Thx Bill. I've already gone there. Hitting every applicable Honda year/model/engine combo, they show no results. Same is true trying to xreference the Lester#. It would appear they've let this model go to the other rebuilder which would be understandable given it's age.

I thought it was from a late 80's civic. Here is an interchange list. https://www.ebay.com/itm/254898487444 I think it was 021000-5640

I do have a remy 14158 on one of the planes and it has gone over 250 hours without issues. The NDs are pretty robust with only the regulator assembly with the shorter life, so the aftermarket rebuilds should be ok as they are not cheap VR packs in them.

Larry
 
External VR w/ OVP, in the classic Ford mounting footprint, $120ish IF you can find one- Transpo Voltage Regulator V1700.

Adjustable voltage output pot, too.
 
Sorry for the resurrection

After some on/off looking, I may have found an actual rebuilt ND 14158 at Rock Auto. GREAT place for older, budget minded auto stuff, BTW. can get teh same price as a dealer distributer unless they've changed their policy.

The photo is a generic rebuild. The description list ND as the manufacturer where others in this category did not. For the cheap price and RA's easy return policy, I ordered it anyway. We'll see if it actually gets installed. Someone on VAF will easily take it for what I've got into it if I decide otherwise.

On another note. The Denso 210-0240 looks to be the same but with a serpentine belt pulley. Have not verified this but a possible decent option for those that don't mind swapping the pulley.
 

Attachments

  • ROck Auto Denso alt purchase.PNG
    ROck Auto Denso alt purchase.PNG
    743.2 KB · Views: 105
I bought this to replace my Denso, works perfect so far. Not rebuilt, new.
1989 SUZUKI SIDEKICK 1.3L L4
ACDELCO 3351271 (335-1271) Alternator / Generator $ 105.79 $ 0.00 1 $ 105.79
Shipping Ground $ 13.99
Tax $ 9.58
Order Total $ 129.36
MasterCard -$ 129.36
Balance Due $ 0.00

Good deal. However, this is an internally regulated alternator. Original poster may want an externally regulated alternator, so that he can set the voltage output to match his battery. Most of the newer technology batteries [AGM & LiFe] require a higher voltage than conventional batteries.
 
Where I live, you can take a tool bag to the junkyard and dig around for good alternators, and other stuff. Or look on their shelves for alternators that they have removed. If nothing else, it's pretty fun. Wear gloves and good shoes. And don't forget what you want is probably from a car with metric fasteners.
 
junkyard and dig around for good alternators

Brings back memories. Some years ago our local junk yard was hosting it's usual spring $5 sale. All small parts excepting engines & trannys for $5, you bring your own tools. So I decide to go down & poke around knowing I need an alternator, but am open to any treasures I may find.
It ended up that I had gathered 5 assorted alternators (max capacity of my bag). I was figuring which would be compatible with my bracket system on the Lycoming, found one that lined up pretty good.
I decided to tear the prime candidate down to see what shape it was in & found the bearings not bad, but armature & brushes rough & worn out. As it turned out, all 5 alternators had worn brushes near failure. Note to any junkyard hounds- the alternator you find WILL need to be rebuilt)
So I had the candidate, it was a pile of parts on the counter, gathered them up and took them down to the local alternator guy, 'Mac's Auto Electric', a truely grubby place. I drop the box of parts on the counter.
Can you rebuild this? Sure
How much & how long? You want good stuff or the cheap stuff?
What's the difference? About $15
What's the total price with the good stuff? $55, come back in 1 hr.
I sold that plane some years ago but as far as I know, that alternator is still humming along fine.
Some factors to consider if you go the auto alternator route:
-Auto pulley size is probably not optimal for usage on a Lycoming, on the car RPM bands range from about 2000 up to 9000. The drive pulley on a typical Lycoming is much bigger & will drive the alternator rpm much higher than that. So you should do the math to determine a good driven pulley size for your alternator (or copy the size on your buddies expensive alternator). I've been told you should keep overall rpms below 9000 for longevity.
-Look real close at the cooling fan on your candidate alternator. If it blows or sucks in the 'wrong' direction, just install a cold air blast tube to the most appropriate side of the alternator to augment the fans internal air flow.
-Any junk yard alternator will need rebuilding- alternators generally (auto or aero) are wear items meaning maintenance will eventually have to be performed.
-your local Auto Electric shop should be able to convert an internal regulated alternator to external easily if you want.

Just some thoughts from the old shop
 
Brings back memories. Some years ago our local junk yard was hosting it's usual spring $5 sale. All small parts excepting engines & trannys for $5, you bring your own tools. So I decide to go down & poke around knowing I need an alternator, but am open to any treasures I may find.
It ended up that I had gathered 5 assorted alternators (max capacity of my bag). I was figuring which would be compatible with my bracket system on the Lycoming, found one that lined up pretty good.
I decided to tear the prime candidate down to see what shape it was in & found the bearings not bad, but armature & brushes rough & worn out. As it turned out, all 5 alternators had worn brushes near failure. Note to any junkyard hounds- the alternator you find WILL need to be rebuilt)
So I had the candidate, it was a pile of parts on the counter, gathered them up and took them down to the local alternator guy, 'Mac's Auto Electric', a truely grubby place. I drop the box of parts on the counter.
Can you rebuild this? Sure
How much & how long? You want good stuff or the cheap stuff?
What's the difference? About $15
What's the total price with the good stuff? $55, come back in 1 hr.
I sold that plane some years ago but as far as I know, that alternator is still humming along fine.
Some factors to consider if you go the auto alternator route:
-Auto pulley size is probably not optimal for usage on a Lycoming, on the car RPM bands range from about 2000 up to 9000. The drive pulley on a typical Lycoming is much bigger & will drive the alternator rpm much higher than that. So you should do the math to determine a good driven pulley size for your alternator (or copy the size on your buddies expensive alternator). I've been told you should keep overall rpms below 9000 for longevity.
-Look real close at the cooling fan on your candidate alternator. If it blows or sucks in the 'wrong' direction, just install a cold air blast tube to the most appropriate side of the alternator to augment the fans internal air flow.
-Any junk yard alternator will need rebuilding- alternators generally (auto or aero) are wear items meaning maintenance will eventually have to be performed.
-your local Auto Electric shop should be able to convert an internal regulated alternator to external easily if you want.

Just some thoughts from the old shop

Completely aligns with my limited experience. From time to time there is a new but wrecked Japanese car with some very good parts. Forgot to mention - a powerful electric screw gun will allow you to quickly get lots of good things like high quality hose clamps - if you need them.
 
I am using a 70 amp ND from a Toyota Camry. Its converted to external regulation from instructions in the Kitplanes article and Im using the B&C regulator. About 450 hours of flawless performance so far. I have dual batteries and I have just added the Monkworks generator.
 
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