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Let's talk about landing lights (specifically wingtip vs. leading edge)

N546RV

Well Known Member
So as of this moment, I have both wing skeletons on the stands, left leading edge clecoed together, etc. More and more, my thoughts are turning to what I want to do for lights. Given a choice, I'd prefer to not cut the leading edge and instead run wingtip lights. However, it seems that many feel that wingtip landing lights have too much of a dark spot in front of a nose, due to the lights being masked by the inboard part of the cutout.

So I'd like to hear personal experiences with wingtip lights. It'd be even better if anyone has some good example photos of light patterns at night.

Of particular interest to me are the new AeroLED Vx lights, which look pretty slick, but would seem to suffer from the same blanking effect as the much-maligned Van's stock kit.

I've almost convinced myself to do the leading edge lights at this point, but I'd like to collect some opinions on both sides before I commit. I definitely want to go ahead and cut the leading edges before they're riveted if I do the leading edge lights. And if I do the leading edges, I expect I'll get the Duckworks mount kit and stick something like an Aerosun in there.

(Speaking of which...does a single Duckworks kit include stuff for both wings, or do I need to buy two kits?)

Let the fight begin! :p
 
I just cut both my wing light holes (after the skins were riveted on). I bought the duckworks kit. you have to buy 2 kits....one for each wing

 
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After installing some of each I decided that the leading edge would work better for me. The Duckworth round was my choice and do work just fine, but because of current draw I will change over to the Whelen LEDS very soon. They are a direct replacement so no mods are necessary as I understand it. Larry
 
I've got the wingtip landing lights in the RV-8, Duckworks in both other airplanes. I have always said that the tip lights in the -8 were "adequate" - but truthfully, the other two are so much better, and the work to install is so simple (even cutting the holes is a no-brainer) that when I have the chance, I'll convert the RV-8 as well.

The tip lights work as recognition lights - don't add much for landing/taxiing at night.
 
I've got the wingtip landing lights in the RV-8, Duckworks in both other airplanes. I have always said that the tip lights in the -8 were "adequate" - but truthfully, the other two are so much better, and the work to install is so simple (even cutting the holes is a no-brainer) that when I have the chance, I'll convert the RV-8 as well.

The tip lights work as recognition lights - don't add much for landing/taxiing at night.

Thanks, very good info.

Another related question for you (and other taildragger builders): What are your thoughts on landing vs. taxi lights? I suppose the simplest solution is to have one wing be a landing light and the other a taxi light, but the part of my reptilian brain that's obsessed with symmetry twitches at that idea. I can probably make it shut up though.
 
Another related question for you (and other taildragger builders): What are your thoughts on landing vs. taxi lights? I suppose the simplest solution is to have one wing be a landing light and the other a taxi light, but the part of my reptilian brain that's obsessed with symmetry twitches at that idea. I can probably make it shut up though.

Keep the reptile quiet - aim one side for landing, the other for taxi, and label them "Right" and "Left" if you must....
 
I have trustfire LED flashlights in the tips of the Rocket, and the typical 100w H4 bulbs in the leading edge of the -8. The Rocket throws a lot more light at the runway in landing than the -8. The Rocket has both aimed high, as landing lights. I've found the spillover from the LED's plenty adequate for the taxi mission. I do have the Massey "hot tips" on the Rocket, if that makes a difference.

I'd say your satisfaction will depend a lot more on the light source, rather than location.
 
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I believe in an ?apple to apple? comparison, the leading edge LL would perform better than the wing tip. But the LL are changing and improving very fast and I believe options for wing tip LL are more than leading edge.

I am on my third version/type of LL, started with the 50W halogen type, went to Bi-Xenon and now to LED. The LEDs are simply Trustfire flash lights that has been modified (simply removed the battery holder portion) and they out preform the Xenon and many of other LL including LED that can be as much as $800
 
Here is a pic of the AeroLeds that were on display at OSH. That's a NAV light with stobe in front of tha landing lights. I really think this is going to replace all in wing landing lights one day. They are lighter and use less power.:)

8acf9cb710e0d22c6cb8b2c36f4c5e8a_zpseae4f919.jpg
 
Here is a pic of the AeroLeds that were on display at OSH. That's a NAV light with stobe in front of tha landing lights. I really think this is going to replace all in wing landing lights one day. They are lighter and use less power.:)

8acf9cb710e0d22c6cb8b2c36f4c5e8a_zpseae4f919.jpg

The new AeroLEDs are probably my favorite of available options, but I'd really like to see someone demo what the light coverage in front of an actual aircraft is. On the one hand, they appear to sit further forward than the standard tip lights, but on the other hand, a lot more of the lighting comes from further into the lighting recess. Thus I figure they're probably a wash vs. the standard tip lights in terms of coverage, but I'd love to see a demo showing otherwise.

The Aveo ziptips really look like the coolest option, if they ever make it to production...but with the delays continuing without apparent end, I don't have a lot of hope that they'll have a real product out any time soon. Plus it sounds like they'll be expensive with a capital E.

So basically, my standpoint on current options goes kind of like this:

  • Leading edge lights I know will provide good lighting and good coverage, plus I can exercise lots of control over what lights I use.
  • Aveo tip lights look as if they solve the coverage problem by not even using the stock light coves, but who knows when they'll actually have a product.
  • AeroLEDs look cool, but I'm skeptical that they won't have the same old coverage issue as other tip lights.

So I end up basically sitting between going ahead and cutting the LE holes now, before everything goes together permanently, or skipping the LE holes for now and hoping for Aveo to get their act together. The downside of the second option is that if Aveo doesn't get their act together, I have to cut LE holes on an assembled wing. Not a huge inconvenience, but one I'd prefer to avoid.

Most likely I'll end up holding off on the cuts until I'm about ready to rivet the LE sections, and absent any sign from Aveo at that time, I'll be sending Duckworks my money.
 
I tried to come up with every excuse I could not to do the leading edge landing lights. In the end I installed the duck works leading edge 50 and 75 watt HiD because I planned on night flying. Just a handful of night landings so far, either they are aimed perfectly from installation or they are just to bright to matter in my RV7.
 
I bought two of the new Duckworks leading edge LED kits that he just came out with in January. I don't have a finished plane yet, but I tested one light shown in the pics below. Really bright, and two of them will be plenty. You probably can't go wrong with any of the reputable LED kits out there.

GOPR0022.JPG


GOPR0025.JPG
 
I have one 100 W halogen in each leading edge. Some day, I will change them to LED's after the price comes down to something realistic. Making this change is much easier with leading edge lights than wing tip lights.

They work great, even on the darkest night and replacement bulbs are a couple of bucks.

My left one is aimed down for taxing and the right is aimed straight out for landing. They are on different switches because the right (landing) light would blind an A380 pilot while taxing around the ramp.

The combination works great on landing and will light up the landing zone from 500 feet.
 
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Went from 300 watts of 30-degree beam halogen (4 ea MR-16s) to "comparable" drop-in MR-16 LEDs. Reduced the current draw by 75% and I still get comments about the brightness of my landing lights. Cost of the "MR-16" LEDs was about $100 two years ago.

For performance, I recommend leading edge installation. For clean, easy install - go wingtip.
 
Noise Free MR-16s??

I picked up a pair of MR-16 drop-in LED lights off of eBay specifically because they said they had "no RF noise". Hah! I turned on the radio, flipped on the lights, and very obvious very loud broadband white noise came loud and clear over the radio.

If you have found some MR-16s which drop in and are not noisy, can you share where you found them (store, vendor, or even better .. part numbers)? Thanks!
 
Same as Andy, I hated to do it but glad I did. I went Duckworks HID with a Wig-Wag box.
 
I picked up a pair of MR-16 drop-in LED lights off of eBay specifically because they said they had "no RF noise". Hah! I turned on the radio, flipped on the lights, and very obvious very loud broadband white noise came loud and clear over the radio.

If you have found some MR-16s which drop in and are not noisy, can you share where you found them (store, vendor, or even better .. part numbers)? Thanks!
I believe these are the ones I bought. No noise at all in my installation - wig-wag or continuous. Unfortunately, these appear to be discontinued.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/more...bulb-gx53-base-white/460/#/tab/Specifications

Here's an even better performing and cheaper "MR-16" LED. No idea on electrical noise though.

http://www.superbrightleds.com/more...b-gx53-base-30-white/993/#/tab/Specifications
 
The discussion of tip vs leading edge landing lights is a discussion in trade-off in price and performance.
The tip landing lights have an inherent problem, getting past that wall that runs parallel to the fuse. That wall prevents light from getting in front of the wing and hence in your fwd view in front of the plane. If you try and bring that light in the tip fwd into the lens open area, you immediately run into another problem. You are now blocking the view of the nav/strobe light that sits in there and any encroachment of the landing light into the lens area and you now have a problem meeting the FAR's for viewability angles of the nav/strobe assembly. There is a reason that the slanted wall is ~110 degrees on the RV tips. That is in the FAR's for viewing angle requirements. When you take anything away from the 110 degrees viewability with a landing light, you now are not in compliance with night ops. There is no way around putting the landing light well back into the tip and doing your best to get light forward. As Paul mentioned, tip landing lights are adequate. I have them on mine and have an inexpensive Whelen LED kit that keeps you in compliance and provides adequate light from the wingtip lens of an RV.

However comma, simply the best light and angles comes from the leading edge lights. There is no replacement for light position on the leading edge of the wing. In my case, I have a fuel tank there so it was not an option or Id put one there for sure. The wingtip is a suitable, less than ideal, low cost alternative.
 
I have both wing tip, and leading lights.

My wing tip are mounted flat to the angle portion of the tip, so they each point out 15--20* and are set up as wig-wag anti collision lights, using the stock Vans bulb.

My leading edge lighting is a home brewed setup with Corvette HID headlight units in Duckworks mounts.

Leading edge lighting really bright in ground testing, but I do not fly at night, so no empirical data as to how well they work.
 
OK, not so skilled metal cutter here, with a beginner question.
Have a wing leading edge landing light that I removed the builders halogen bulb from. Bolted in a dozen LED's in a heat sink housing with a few cuts and bruises from the tight space. Works OK for landing and good for recog.
Now, I think I will cut the left wing and duplicate the light on that side.
What tool is the best choice to plunge cut right into a pristine wing? I will purchase a clear plastic lens kit and reinforcement ring from Van's.
But, I don't want to butcher the wing by being an idiot with tool choice and techniques. Any and all advice welcome...
 
OK, not so skilled metal cutter here, with a beginner question.
Have a wing leading edge landing light that I removed the builders halogen bulb from. Bolted in a dozen LED's in a heat sink housing with a few cuts and bruises from the tight space. Works OK for landing and good for recog.
Now, I think I will cut the left wing and duplicate the light on that side.
What tool is the best choice to plunge cut right into a pristine wing? I will purchase a clear plastic lens kit and reinforcement ring from Van's.
But, I don't want to butcher the wing by being an idiot with tool choice and techniques. Any and all advice welcome...

You can take a look at my leading edge landing light install doc from our documentation section off our website. It explains in great detail what is required, the tools needed, and how to do it. It has been done by the thousands by those before you. Its really NO BIG DEAL. Even putting one into a painted finished leading edge is really no big deal.
 
First trace where you are going to cut. Make a template from the other wing.

Cover you future hole with painters tape and then cover that with gorilla tape and trace your hole on top of that.

Drill a big hole at least a half inch from where the edge of the hole should be. Using whatever tool you like, cut out the hole, leaving an 1/8" lip to file down.

I used a body saw, which works great. Others have used dremels or fone tooth hacksaw blades. The key is to file up to the line very carefully.
 
Pretty much what Bill said.

I like to use a Unibit in the corners to get a nice radius------but you need to locate the center of the hole exactly, then drill up to the needed diameter/radius.

I use a cutoff wheel in a die grinder to make the large cuts, file or sanding drum as needed to get the final size.

Try it on some scrap first to build your confidence:eek:
 
Kahuna and Bill:
Much appreciated.... I feel better now about butchering my fine looking leading edge. The filing up to the final line advice fills in my knowledge gap.
I was worried about wavy metal... due to snips or whatever.
I probably own more power tools than should be allowed an idiot.
Using some of them around my plane worries me.
Now, I have a better feeling for starting this project.
I fly out of ERAU's western campus base airport. Surrounded by students with squeaky voices that are staring at their glass maps. I live in fear that one of them will run me over. So, I keep all the lights on and fly at even and odd altitudes. (did not put that in print) More LED's seems to be in my list of desired add ons. Thanks for taking time to write and post!
 
Like the others said way easier to do than it sounds. I drew the template on the wing skin and used a uni-drill bit to drill a large hole in each corner about 1/16-1/8 inboard from the template mark. I then carefully used my die grinder with a cutting wheel (dremel/metal saw/hacksaw blade all work) to make the rest of the cut 1/16-1/8 on the inside of the template line. A file easily cleaned up the edges right to the template line and a sanding drum-wheel in my cordless drill easily dressed up and radiused the corners. I was surprised when I had a good looking square hole with rounded edges in less than 30 minutes. Good Luck!
 
landing lights

Our plane was built with only halogens in the tips. They were just OK at large strips, terrible at our little clear the trees and drop in runway at 14A. We added DW leading edge kits and rolled our own 55watt HID. They work great and I now have MR16 LEDs in the tips for wigwag. have been told our plane looks like a 737 on final.

Saving up to buy some of Kahunas LEDs to replace the HIDs in the near future as they will fit in our existing DW kits.

We were really sweating the big cut, but it was no big deal at all. Only suggestion I would make, don't try to paint the mounting screws, just leave them with their stainless finish.
 
Here is a photo that was sent to us by one of our customers that installed the Aerosun Vx wingtip lights. As you can see by the light pattern on the hangar, there is enough light to be able to see directly in front of the nose. It appears that this photo was taken at a fairly close distance from the hangar (maybe 30 feet or so). By 50 feet in front of the plane, the light reaching the area in front of the nose is even brighter than what you see here:

RV_Vx.jpg


http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aerosun-vx.php
 
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I was worried about making the cuts in the wingskin too, but its really not a big deal. Just do as others have said using the painters tape and mark the outline. Double and triple check that you have the template turned the right direction before you start cutting.

I used a cutoff wheel on both my dremel tool and a larger diameter one on my die grinder. With the larger wheel its easier to cut straight cuts and the with the smaller wheel you can cut around the corners. As others have said you will need to file and/or can to the finished line. If you have a sanding drum that can help finish up the corners. I had some small scotchbrite wheels so I used one of those in the corners to make a clean final radius.

These cutouts don't need to be absolutely perfect. The lense is cut to match the openeing so if one is say 1/16" larger than the other wing no one would know unless they took out a rule to measure it. Having said that I tried to make my perfect. :D You know engineers.
 
When making the decision to cut the LE or go to the wingtip has anyone considered the birdstrike aspect? This is probably getting way down in to the weeds of probability, but we have seen raging discussions around here for less...

I've hit a few birds in my relatively short flying experience, and the last one bounced off the leading edge of the RV-8 just inches from the landing light lens in the wing. I got away with a small dent in the skin, but I imagine that had the creature entered the LL lens then it would have been like a small meat grenade going off inside the wing.

The chances of taking a bird in the LL is very small, admittedly. However, a big hole in the wing covered with plexiglass is a significant reduction in strength for any impact.

Just something to consider before making that first cut.
 
No data, but I did make a decision..

I was just assuming that the leading edge landing light was the only way to go until a few months ago when I found these threads on the new wing tip solutions. I like the idea of leaving the leading edge structure intact and the simplicity of using the wing tip cutouts for the landing lights. By the time I get around to needing to install the landing lights, the options and products will be even better. So I went out to the shop and riveted the leading edges together. It feels good to make a decision!
 
What model of Trustfire are you using?

This thread details the trustfire flashlights.

Super-Bright-11000LM-TrustFire-LED-Flashlight-Torch-9-CREE-XML-T6-11000-Lumen-5-Switch-Modes.jpg



Despite some earlier problems with noise when I was running 4 of the smaller, 3 LED versions, I'm now running these bigger units with essentially zero noise.

They are blinding, and seem to be holding up fine. I run them day and night.

Pretty impressive for $50 bucks- I've even "sold" a few other people on them after seeing mine in action.
 
Trustfire modes

Has anyone found a way to disable all the various Trustfire flashlight modes? I'd rather it just come on full brightness when power is applied, otherwise it will not work with my existing wingwag circuit.
 
There are ways to do this, I've heard. However, the lights have a memory - meaning they come back on in the same mode they were last in. There's no need to cycle through the modes to find "ON, high". Concerning the wig wag box- I'd suggest removing it. After flying with these for many hours now, I've found that the strobe and "SOS" functions work just great as a wig wag.

I'm going to convert the -8 from its halogen/wig wag configuration to the Trustfires eventually... I'll not shed a single tear removing an unneeded electronic box from the airplane.
 
Michael,

I bought one of those flashlights to experiment with but never went any further. One question. How do you know what mode you've clicked into from the cockpit?
 
In my case, I can see the glow from the landing light lenses - even in broad daylight. However, if you can't see this, then a simple fiber optic indicator (like used on NAV light lenses) should work too.
 
Which location is best for leading edge lights?

I have read about the pros/cons of tip lights vs leading edge, but it looks like we *might* have some lattitude as to how far inboard to bring the leading edge lights if going that route. Just looking at various pictures online, it looks like the consensus is to go outboard (location #1), but has anyone brought them inboard a bit or wish that they had?
 

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Location 1

I have read about the pros/cons of tip lights vs leading edge, but it looks like we *might* have some lattitude as to how far inboard to bring the leading edge lights if going that route. Just looking at various pictures online, it looks like the consensus is to go outboard (location #1), but has anyone brought them inboard a bit or wish that they had?

Locations further inboard will weaken the wing D-cell structure and that would be regrettable. Better to put the lights in the standard location and aim them to suit your requirements. Further out is also better for other pilots to see wig-wag flashing.
 
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