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What type of rivets in a 10?

RNB

Member
I am reading an EAA book on basic sheet metal work, going over different types of rivets. What rivet methods are used in a 10? I am mainly interested in learning if it is a method that is best done with two people and if so, how much time is dedicated to the actual riveting with two people? When placing such rivets, is there a fatigue factor that sets in?
 
The 10 uses primarily AN426 and AN470 solid rivets that need to be either squeezed or bucked. The method used is irrelevant for the most part— sometimes you can use either method (I prefer to squeeze whenever I can), but a lot of times the situation dictates the method. As to whether you need 2 people is again driven by the situation. I drafted my wife and taught her to shoot while I bucked when necessary but I did as much riveting as I could solo.

There are also a fair amount of various styles of pulled rivets too.

I never got really fatigued when riveting, but I did find doing a lot of pulled rivets in a session with a manual hand puller (vs pneumatic) to be more tiring (especially in my hands) than anything I ever did with solid rivets. In the end it’s not an issue. If I were going to build a 12 I’d have invested in a pneumatic puller but a better investment for the 10, IMO, is pneumatic squeezer.
 
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Forgot to add that, IMO, riveting isn’t a particularly hard skill to learn, it just takes a bit of practice.
 
Above is absolutely right - but to add - maybe 95% are bucked. 5% are pulled.

As for particular technique, the vast majority of rivets are into dimpled or countersunk pieces, yielding the additional strength of the dimple. The back riveting technique often yields the most consistent results, assuming you have a nice plate or surface to back rivet into.
 
There are very few tasks that require 2 people while building a RV-10. Over the 2000+ hours to build a 10 if you had 40 hours of a second person you would be fine and most of that time would be to move some of the larger parts.
 
I found there were certain areas that required 2 people to drive the rivets, for example the bottom wing skins, and some of the tail cone rivets that weren't able to be reached by one person. But a lot of the work can be done by one person, particularly if close enough to an edge to allow use of a pneumatic squeezer.

There are also some pulled rivets, but as indicated above perhaps only 5% or less.

I typically worked 7-8 hrs at a time on my RV-10, and didn't get fatigued, but mostly used tools that reduced the forces required from me, such as pneumatic squeezer, pneumatic rivet puller, DRDT for dimpling, 5 inch random orbit sander for a lot of the fiberglass work, etc.

Regards,
 
Pounding rivets

Funny. This is exactly why I encourage Mentorship.
I prefer the gun and bar and rarely use my pneumatic.
Personal preference. It's all about what you like.

Consider the cleko pliers excercise. I love shaking hands with my grand daughters boyfriends. They always look at their hand. Old G-rent has quite a grip! :D
 
Yeah, but...

Funny. This is exactly why I encourage Mentorship.
I prefer the gun and bar and rarely use my pneumatic.
Personal preference. It's all about what you like.

Consider the cleko pliers excercise. I love shaking hands with my grand daughters boyfriends. They always look at their hand. Old G-rent has quite a grip! :D

A word to the wise: Switch hands for the cleco pliers often or you may find yourself with a case of tendonitis. It is not pleasant.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was initially surprised to read the first couple responses, appreciate the precision of saying: only 5% pulled, minimal rivets requiring a second person.

On mentorship, I agree. But I can't just sit back and wait for it to happen or else I will be on their schedule. If I happen to pick one up, great. In the meantime, I will continue reading, have an EAA metalwork class scheduled, plan to meet with Zach in March, and will watch more youtube as I dream.
 
Just to be clear, I wouldn’t characterize the number of rivets that need a 2nd person to help riveting as minimal. With some ingenuity it can be, I suppose, but that’s the exception not the rule. For example, I know of a builder who backriveted the tailcone without the need for a 2nd person so this is an example of it can be done. However, most builders, myself included, approach major component riveting (tailcone, fuse, etc) as a 2-person job. Generally having help will make the construction go faster. This will become obvious once you start building. You’ll see what’s required and figure out a method that works best for your situation. There’s usually more than one way to skin the cat.
 
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Just to be clear, I wouldn’t characterize the number of rivets that need a 2nd person to help riveting as minimal. With some ingenuity it can be, I suppose, but that’s the exception not the rule. For example, I know of a builder who backriveted the tailcone without the need for a 2nd person so this is an example of it can be done. However, most builders, myself included, approach major component riveting (tailcone, fuse, etc) as a 2-person job. Generally having help will make the construction go faster. This will become obvious once you start building. You’ll see what’s required and figure out a method that works best for your situation. There’s usually more than one way to skin the cat.

More than the 40 hours someone specified?
 
More than the 40 hours someone specified?

IMO you can’t quantify how time will be saved for you based upon someone else’s experience. You could end up spending an inordinate amount trying to figure out and then implementing a solo solution that could very easily been done in a fraction of the time with some help. Look, there are few absolutes out there. I did as much by myself that was practical but I have no idea if I’d have saved 40 hrs, 100hrs, or nothing had I used more help than the bare minimum. What I do know is the 10 is a large plane and there’s a lot of rivets and that’s only part of the work that goes into each hole that’s riveted. Riveting is just one aspect of the construction process, and it’s actually one of the faster aspects when you’re building. It’s getting to the point that a given component is ready for riveting that takes most of the time. How much help you need is ultimately your call, but it’s gonna be years worth of a lot of sweat equity no matter how you slice it.
 
IMO you can’t quantify how time will be saved for you based upon someone else’s experience. You could end up spending an inordinate amount trying to figure out and then implementing a solo solution that could very easily been done in a fraction of the time with some help. Look, there are few absolutes out there. I did as much by myself that was practical but I have no idea if I’d have saved 40 hrs, 100hrs, or nothing had I used more help than the bare minimum. What I do know is the 10 is a large plane and there’s a lot of rivets and that’s only part of the work that goes into each hole that’s riveted. Riveting is just one aspect of the construction process, and it’s actually one of the faster aspects when you’re building. It’s getting to the point that a given component is ready for riveting that takes most of the time. How much help you need is ultimately your call, but it’s gonna be years worth of a lot of sweat equity no matter how you slice it.



OK.

The question I asked though was about how much time for two person riveting. I did not ask about saving time, or prep work.
 
Yes, take the EAA course. That will answer 90% of your sheet metal questions to get you thru the airframe structure part of the build.

Than you will have 60% of the built left & lots more questions.
 
I'm no clecoe plier hero with a firm grip... or tendonitis...

https://www.panamericantool.com/nov...l-tools/novar-pneumatic-instalation-tool.html

Best $72 luxury you can get in this project. I love mine!

I have that gun and love it too. Don't use it for everything but definitely speeds things up when you have to assemble or disassemble something before or after match drilling. The pliers are easier as I move down a row with the drill but the gun is great for bulk jobs.
 
Two person riveting

OK.

The question I asked though was about how much time for two person riveting. I did not ask about saving time, or prep work.

I can't quantify on the 10 but I would estimate 48 man/hours.
Basically any rivet you can't reach with both hands.
Empennage: No problem on the 7, but the 10 has a bigger HS. Maybe one session.
Wings: Skins and maybe leading edge. Figure two sessions maybe three. Top skins then bottom skins then leading edge to spar.
Fuselage: I managed to rivet the bottom skin solo using a jig. Side skins no problem. Once it's closed, there's no way to reach the top skin rivets.
Fuselage crew area ribs and floor. Might need help. One session
Fuslage forward skin: No way to reach.
Probably a bunch more on the 10.
It's easy to find helpers. Make builder friends. Help them and they will help you.
 
Riveting (like anything) of course gets much faster and easier as you get more experienced doing it, so it's hard to estimate and varies by person.

I keep a somewhat detailed build log tracking times and rivets, and I started with zero experience, see if that helps you get an idea of time:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SET-nWkDr6UizefdpnuFJBksOg0CX4SsLJl_WYyNEHU/preview

(notice there's many tabs at the bottom with the details of each section)
Maybe half or so of my rivets were done together with my wife (certainly all the tough ones :) ).
 
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