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RV-8 Carpet?

Which option describes you best?

  • Flying RV-8, would not put carpet in

    Votes: 29 33.3%
  • Flying RV-8, already have carpet

    Votes: 18 20.7%
  • Flying RV-8, would like to add carpet

    Votes: 14 16.1%
  • Project, would not put carpet in

    Votes: 11 12.6%
  • Project, would like to add carpet

    Votes: 15 17.2%

  • Total voters
    87

Luke D

Well Known Member
Advertiser
Hello VAF,

Years ago we started working on carpet for the RV-8. Other projects pushed it to the back burner, and we never got back to it. We recently circled back to the idea, but wanted to see how much interest there would be if we offered a full carpet set.

We have a fair amount of the RV-8 3D model already in the computer including both adjustable and fixed rudder pedals. You can see a screenshot of some of the components below.

Please let me know what you think about it, and/or share your preference on the poll above. Also, if there are any special insights about things you would do a certain way, or avoid, that would also be very helpful.

Thanks,
 

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Too bad the poll doesn't allow multiple selections. I do already have carpet, home-made from something that is probably not as fire-resistant as it should be.

If carpet pieces are offered that are from aircraft grade (whatever that means) fire-resistant carpet, I would consider swapping mine out for yours.

I think it would be good to allow customers to mix and match rather than have to buy a full set of whatever you come up with. For instance, I would definitely want the forward floor carpet, cut to fit around the in-flight adjustable rudder pedal mount. But I might not want to buy a back-seat floor area carpet.

Oh, also, my forward floor carpet would need to be trimmed along a straight line extending forward from both gear towers, not just the right. I have a partition panel on the left that matches the right, enclosing the fuel pump and filter.
 
I just pulled the 18 year old carpet from my plane. It’s disgusting, just filthy. With the ground here being just about pure sand, a lot of it gets worked in to the carpet. It’s being replaced with vinyl coin dot mat.
 
No carpet. Thin stainless sheet under rudder pedals, Epoxy over the rest of the decking.
 
Lightweight, thin carpet for the baggage areas would be a winner. Simple rectangles. Sewn edge with a non skid backing.

Two for the rear and two for the front baggage hold. If there is a smoke tank in the lower front, then only the upper is needed.

Since the front baggage area uses the firewall as one wall, fire safety is paramount.

Keep black as a stock color and you could ship out same day ordered since I predict it would be a big seller and you would want to keep a few orders ahead. Since there are 1,611 Rv-8’s completed, you might sell a few sets.

Having said this, I would order today if it was in stock since I will need and haven’t purchased anything yet.
 
Thank you for all of the feedback. The more the better. Real world experiences like these are what we're looking for.

Sorry about the poll setup Steve. I should have realized that would be a common situation. On your suggestion to allow customers to buy a partial carpet set, we're happy to do that.

Carpet modifications are usually pretty easy. The change Steve mentioned would be no problem. Also, we do use carpet that meets FAR 25.853. We can provide test reports for those who need that (some european countries).

I've learned over the years that some prefer carpet in their 8, and some don't. I guess it kind of depends on how you use the plane most of the time. The vinyl dot material and epoxy are interesting options. It would be interesting to hear how they compare with carpet. Kind of a pros and cons comparison.

We have an RV-8 partial fuselage that we built years ago. It stops at the back seat bulkhead, but we have the parts that make up the rear baggage. Can't remember if we have the front baggage parts. As Webb mentioned though, they are are simple shapes. If you just need those pieces, we could probably get you taken care of pretty quickly.

One area we spent quite a bit of time thinking about is the foot wells. I never was sure we had the best solution. I'll upload some pictures to show what I'm talking about.
 
FAR 25.853 is applicable for materials located well away from a powerplant firewall. 853 materials are not fireproof. They are merely expected to self extinguish after the heat source is removed. Given a continued heat source, open flame is expected and allowed.

It's an airline cabin upholstery reg. Think little Johnny with a cigarette lighter.

I would not allow carpet forward of the rudder pedals for sure. As for the forward baggage compartment, carpet would just mean something flammable against the firewall all the time, rather than sometimes.
 
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Good points Dan. I think I've read all of your posts about flammability issues around the firewall. Over the years, we've had many customers ask us about sound deadening material to add to the firewall. We've always discouraged adding anything there. The results of your testing are pretty conclusive.

As far as carpeting goes, I hadn't considered this to be as big of an issue as the sound deadening. It's been many years, but I did some testing on our carpet at one point. It definetly isn't fire proof, but I was impressed at how effective the flammability treatment was. As I recall, I held the flame of a propane torch (not sure of the exact tempurature) directly on the carpet for an extended period of time. As soon as the flame was removed, the carpet extinguished.

You mentioned not extending the carpet forward of the rudder pedals. Since rudder pedals can be adjusted to different locations, what would you consider the minimum distance that the carpet should be separated from the firewall?
 
I found anti slip self adhesive vinyl for stair treads to be a good way to go. Don’t get the stuff that is like sand paper. Cut to size. I put it under the pilots feet and in the rear passenger foot well.

The stuff lasts for 10-12 years and is easy to replace.

Getting into an RV-8 with wet shoes can be real slippery if you just have a painted cabin floor.

Here is one of many options:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GX6CJZ...&s=hi&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw&th=1

Carl
 
Luke, take a look at post 14 in a thread called "Firewall kits -beta". There's a picture of the setup and a temperature plot.

"Target" is a proxy for objects on the cabin side of a firewall, but not in direct contact with it. It's a sheet aluminum rectangle painted flat black, located roughly 4, maybe 5 inches from the stainless steel. It is not an exact value because unprotected 26ga SS warps and deforms when heated, changing the dimension. Temperature is mostly due to radiant energy. The proxy objects could be the soles of the pilots shoes, a brake fluid tube...or carpet.

For a bare firewall, the heat target is hitting 600F very quickly. Carpet in contact with the aluminum angle across the bottom of the firewall would see much more, note structure temperature. Although a treated carpet may self extinguish, removing the heat source (an engine compartment fire) is not as simple as turning the valve on a propane torch, and there would be some lag while the metal cools.

Fire transfer aside, there is also the issue of smoke. Gotta see and breathe to fly.

Best bet is to avoid installing fibers, fabrics, and paint near the hot stuff.
 
Interesting. I thought I had read all of your posts about firewall tests, but I guess I haven't been keeping up. I'll look forward to more details on your firewall insulation kit.

Good food for thought. The plots are interesting. I guess it would be difficult to determine the temperatures of various locations on the firewall (in an actual aircraft engine fire). Probably just have to assume max temperature everywhere. I notice you added a sort of shroud around the torch. Didn't notice that in earlier tests.

Might have to figure out a similar test rig of my own to explore this a little more.
 
One area that I would really like to get some feedback on is the back seat foot wells. This is one thing that held up a final design back when we were working on this. I've seen several methods of finishing these off with carpet. Just wondering about longevity, and real world results after a few years of use. I'd really appreciate any input. Our earlier design used a laser cut stainless steel insert that was formed to match the angles down into the well, and protect the edge from wear.

The main area I'm wondering about is marked with a red line below (sorry, this is the best thing I could come up with to illustrate with). How well does the carpet hold up here?
 

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I have carpet in the forward baggage compartment and rear baggage compartment. The carpet is velcroed down. I like these very much as they keep baggage items from slipping around. I also have carpet on the forward cabin floor under the rudder pedals extending back to the spar. This is one piece custom cut with rubberized inserts where your feet (heels) rest to keep the wear down. This all works well.

I do not have carpet in the footwells or rear seat floor and wouldn't add it. It's a very small area and very little of the uncarpeted floor is viewable so I think there is little benefit other than aesthetics and lots of downside in time required to remove.

The tradeoff for any of these areas is that any carpet must be removed for inspections, so the less the better as this just adds time and aggravation to the removal installation process.

I'm happy with my current setup.

Chris
 
I guess it would be difficult to determine the temperatures of various locations on the firewall (in an actual aircraft engine fire). Probably just have to assume max temperature everywhere. I notice you added a sort of shroud around the torch. Didn't notice that in earlier tests.

The standard is 2000F over 25 sq inches, with a specified heat flux. The old test used an oil burner which is no longer available, so the FAA is going over to propane. However, unlike fuel oil, the propane flame is translucent, allowing a lot of the subject's heat energy to radiate back through the flame. The effect is a test not as severe as the old oil burner test, even though the flame is delivering a measured 2000F at the thermocouple just in front of the SS panel.

I calibrate with a copper strip, and let flame temp float just over 2000 during the typical run. The cone on the burner nets the 25 sq in hot area. The flat panel around the cone is a reflector to send back some the energy escaping through the clear flame.

It's not as precise as a better instrumented installation for certification, buts it's close enough to learn what we need to know.

This test involves way, way more heat energy than the upholstery and carpet test. That one is done with a little Bunsen burner.
 
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The standard is 2000F over 25 sq inches, with a specified heat flux. The old test used an oil burner which is no longer available, so the FAA is going over to propane. However, unlike fuel oil, the propane flame is translucent, allowing a lot of the subject's heat energy to radiate back through the flame. The effect is a test not as severe as the old oil burner test, even though the flame is delivering a measured 2000F at the thermocouple just in front of the SS panel.

I calibrate with a copper strip, and let flame temp float just over 2000 during the typical run. The cone on the burner nets the 25 sq in hot area. The flat panel around the cone is a reflector to send back some the energy escaping through the clear flame.

It's not as precise as a better instrumented installation for certification, buts it's close enough to learn what we need to know.

This test involves way, way more heat energy than the upholstery and carpet test. That one is done with a little Bunsen burner.

Ah, I didn't know about the 25 sq in criteria. Thanks for the clarification.
 
I have carpet in the forward baggage compartment and rear baggage compartment. The carpet is velcroed down. I like these very much as they keep baggage items from slipping around. I also have carpet on the forward cabin floor under the rudder pedals extending back to the spar. This is one piece custom cut with rubberized inserts where your feet (heels) rest to keep the wear down. This all works well.

I do not have carpet in the footwells or rear seat floor and wouldn't add it. It's a very small area and very little of the uncarpeted floor is viewable so I think there is little benefit other than aesthetics and lots of downside in time required to remove.

The tradeoff for any of these areas is that any carpet must be removed for inspections, so the less the better as this just adds time and aggravation to the removal installation process.

I'm happy with my current setup.

Chris

Thanks Chris. This is very helpful. This discussion has definitely changed my thinking. I know some may choose to have only front carpet like you, but some will also want carpet in the back as well. Your comments about ease of removal are right on as well.

With this in mind, I think the rear carpet could be very simple. I'm thinking of two separate pieces. one on each side of the stick area. The carpet pieces can go forward just to the edge of the foot well. At that point I'm imagining a formed stainless edge piece that will protect the carpet edge and hold it in place. The trim piece should be designed so that a heel will easily slide over it without catching.

The customer can finish the foot well any way they like. I can imagine someone painting it to match the carpet color, and then putting black tread tape inside to protect it from scratches. This keeps it lighter, less expensive, and less complicated to remove. I'll do some experimenting with this, and see how it goes. In the mean time, additional comments and suggestions are welcome.
 
Thanks Chris. This is very helpful. This discussion has definitely changed my thinking. I know some may choose to have only front carpet like you, but some will also want carpet in the back as well. Your comments about ease of removal are right on as well.

With this in mind, I think the rear carpet could be very simple. I'm thinking of two separate pieces. one on each side of the stick area. The carpet pieces can go forward just to the edge of the foot well. At that point I'm imagining a formed stainless edge piece that will protect the carpet edge and hold it in place. The trim piece should be designed so that a heel will easily slide over it without catching.

The customer can finish the foot well any way they like. I can imagine someone painting it to match the carpet color, and then putting black tread tape inside to protect it from scratches. This keeps it lighter, less expensive, and less complicated to remove. I'll do some experimenting with this, and see how it goes. In the mean time, additional comments and suggestions are welcome.

Luke:

In my original -8 interior (I'm on the second interior now), I put some almost transparent colored tread tape or wing walk type material on the face of the footwells. I found it tended to hold dirt and debris in place and quickly looked unattractive. It was a pain to clean due to the gritty nature of the material. So I took it off and left the footwells as they were originally painted. I don't carry that many passengers but the paint in the footwells has held up well (17 years). Just a data point for you. I actually received carpet with footwell inserts (a rubber like ribbed material same as my forward floor has) but after figuring how many places i'd need to velcro it to keep it flush with the floor I decided to keep those pieces in storage. Good luck with your project. You guys do great work.
 
Any update?

Seems like you are working up a solution. Any update for the 8. I would love to buy something! Have you seen anything about vinyl diamond pattern type floor covering.....bad idea...seems good for staying cleaner and less dust and odor trapping than traditional carpet?
Anyways, anything to offer for for the 8? Pilot floor area and passenger floor area?
 
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