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Switching to experimental

dickson

I'm New Here
I've been flying Certified for +10years +1000hours (Beechcraft-Sierra)
I feel It's time I switch to a more performant ship.
I never considered Experimental but I realize I was wrong.
I recently moved to the Bay Area, close to KSQL and I don't have access to a hangar.

I am looking for the shortest path to own and fly an RV but it scares me to end up with a poorly assembled kit.
Does it make sense to own an experimental plane if you don't build it yourself?
 
It sure made sense for me, after 50 years flying certified aircraft...I'll never go back. I admire those here that build these things from scratch, but airplane kit building is definitely not for me. Be aware that you don't have to do your own maintenance, but you can do what you're comfortable with. Me...I do some of the wiring and electronics (with help), and some of the airframe but I pretty much stop at the firewall and leave it in the hands of my local AI-P.

As to vetting the build quality of your proposed EA-B purchase...you get it thoroughly evaluated by an expert. There are a number of them here and you'll find them to be well worth the expense when you get to that stage.

Experimental aviation isn't hard, it's just different. Get someone to help you.
 
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Like the certified world, your key is a proper pre-buy from a suitable person. The difference is that pre-buy could be done by someone other than a mechanic, like a knowledgeable builder.

Do your homework, and jump in. I did, so there's that.

Signed,

Some Guy On The Internet. :D
 
Like the certified world, your key is a proper pre-buy from a suitable person. The difference is that pre-buy could be done by someone other than a mechanic, like a knowledgeable builder.

Do your homework, and jump in. I did, so there's that.

Signed,

Some Guy On The Internet. :D
^^^^^^^ AGREE ^^^^^^^

Just follow this advice. I did the switch 14years ago and am SO GLAD I DID!

:cool:
 
I second the choice for experimental aviation and the need for a thorough pre-buy by an “experienced, qualified builder/mechanic.” However, remember the airplane you eventually purchase will not be perfect! RV’s are experimental - amateur built aircraft (emphasis on amateur built).

I purchased my RV7A a little over six years ago from its original builder. My prebuy was not done by an RV expert but by a local A&P/IA. There were a lot of build quality items he missed during the prebuy that came back quickly to haunt my purchase decision that I truly questioned whether I had wasted my money.

The good news was these issues were “fixable” with only one true airworthiness issue requiring an expert to address. It took eighteen months of “fly and fix” to completely get the aircraft where I wanted it but I learned so much in the process that I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. As a Vans technician advised me during my initial aircraft search, you can minimize build quality concerns by focusing your search on Quick Build kit aircraft but you cannot eliminate them.

My suggestion is find the RV you like, have an experienced builder AP/IA evaluate the potential aircraft, come to an agreement that seems fair to both parties and then set aside a reserve amount to cover “undiscovered prebuy issues” because there will be some.

Remember, airplanes by definition are: “ a vacuum in space that suck up your money.” However, experimental aircraft also offer the ability to expand your knowledge by allowing you to address these issues yourself that certified aircraft rules prevent you from addressing without an A&P doing the work. Besides, they’re generally much more fun to fly and have better technology than affordable certified aircraft.

The GA aircraft population is getting quite old. Most have had numerous A&P/IAs work on them with varying degrees of knowledge and quality. Lots of updates and upgrades have occurred over time that frankly make the fleet just as questionable as the experimental market. My belief is that “bang for buck” the experimental fleet offers more - it just requires a more specialized, thorough prebuy before an exchange of ownership occurs.
 
I just went from certified to EAB and bought a flying RV-6A, no time free to build for the next few years, but it will happen. It's not scary once you realize that a good pre-buy is worth it's cost. If you can get a pre-buy and a once over by a local (to the purchased plane) RV'er you'll ensure a solid purchase. Like others have said, you don't need to do anything you're not comfortable with, I don't touch anything engine critical, yet, and may never do so, but I will assist an AP on engine items so I can learn and better understand my bird.

I'm more excited now about owning then I was in the certified world.
 
So True

The GA aircraft population is getting quite old. Most have had numerous A&P/IAs work on them with varying degrees of knowledge and quality. Lots of updates and upgrades have occurred over time that frankly make the fleet just as questionable as the experimental market. My belief is that “bang for buck” the experimental fleet offers more - it just requires a more specialized, thorough pre-buy before an exchange of ownership occurs.

Having been an Aircraft mechanic, and looking over rental aircraft just for kicks, I can attest to this fact. After 30 years of maintenance, those certified planes get to be scary to me. At least with experimental, one could update to modern technology without much trouble: rip out the old panel, and install new avionics, replace the engine for a new factory fresh, and with RVs, new parts are still available and probably will for the foreseeable future; cant say that about other kit manufacturers.
 
DO IT!!

Just DO it!!!!!
And you will be a happier person. BUT make sure to get a good prebuy.
I bought a 6 kit in 1991 didn't get to work on it till 2001 Life and making money got in the way. Made a lot of it.
Oh ya it is still not finished. Worked on it in 2001 2002 and a bit in 2003. 1043 hours of construction.
Had a Cessna 206 to fly,
Didn't give up on the 6, BUT, I bought a finished 6A five years ago after I sold the 206.
Yes it is not perfect but I'm a mechanic and can fix anything. I still have the 6 and now own a hangar to finish it in.
I should have sold the 206 a long time ago and bought a 6A to fly.
If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking finding and getting a good RV experimental prebuy and go for it. Get ready to put some bumpers on your fun meter.
You will never go back.
Art
 
I feel that the experimental market is better for several reasons, including that they (especially the RV series) generally do things that the certified versions can’t get close to! Just remember that experimental aircraft aren’t supposed to be an alternative to certified, they are primarily for education and “experimentation”, although the mainstream experimental aircraft are pretty proven and cookie cutter when built to plans. I would love to see an experimental version of a Bonanza A36 with the huge baggage door, or a Cessna 185 type having speed, utility and good looks!
 
The question is not so much certified vs experimental, it's what is the right plane for what you want to do. If that is to fly something with a fantastic balance of high performance, low speed handling, reasonable short-field capability and good handling on the ground in a well-proven design with thousands flying and great support and parts availability for not exorbitant cost, you can get an experimental RV, or a certified... what? Sorry I can't think of anything.
 
Having been an Aircraft mechanic, and looking over rental aircraft just for kicks, I can attest to this fact. After 30 years of maintenance, those certified planes get to be scary to me. At least with experimental, one could update to modern technology without much trouble: rip out the old panel, and install new avionics, replace the engine for a new factory fresh, and with RVs, new parts are still available and probably will for the foreseeable future; cant say that about other kit manufacturers.

I can attest the condition of the certified airplanes in the flight school rental fleet are no where as "airworthy" as the bunch of RVs I saw flying or the numerous RV projects I visited in the SoCal area. I saw a bunch of Cherokee/Cessna with 1/2 working radio, rusted seat track, door hinges cobble together with repair doublers from the heavy use. Granted these old birds accumulated more hours than 99% of the RVs in their lifetime but we trusted them to teach our children how to fly in them, per the FAA. I am never 100% confident in my skill as an aircraft builder/mechanic/avionics_wirer, I have seen worse stuff in the certified world.
 
Best plane ever

Dickson,

I bought an RV7A a couple months ago, and oh-boy, yee-haw, it’s the greatest plane (for my mission) ever! All glass, IFR, CS prop, etc. Zips along 155 TAS, but my GS is typically around 170-200 kts!

I rented the usual 172 and Arrows for years. Can’t compare to the RV. Send me a PM, happy to take you up. I’m at KDVO (GNOSS).
As a side note, I use it all for business as I travel up/down California for our projects.

Paul
 

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I've been flying Certified for +10years +1000hours (Beechcraft-Sierra)
I feel It's time I switch to a more performant ship.
I never considered Experimental but I realize I was wrong.
I recently moved to the Bay Area, close to KSQL and I don't have access to a hangar.

I am looking for the shortest path to own and fly an RV but it scares me to end up with a poorly assembled kit.
Does it make sense to own an experimental plane if you don't build it yourself?

Multiple issues in your opening post.

Performance ... You can buy an Extra 330 as an experimental or a certified aircraft. DO you want to study and qualify to do your own inspections and maintenance to keep it airworthy or do you want to hire it done?

Buying an RV vs building your own.
What one man will consider a perfect aircraft is another mans piece of junk. As you gain a fuller understanding of panel components and ignition's, engines and propellors through your own experience and the people you meet and listen to, your own opinion of the perfect RV will change.

As a rule even if you purchased the most perfect RV on the face of the earth, there will be items and components that will reveal themselves as not what you want in the end. It takes a couple of years to make any aircraft your own.

For the most (s)miles per dollar and lowest maintenance it is almost impossible to beat an RV 6 or RV 9 with a fixed pitch prop on an 0-320, yet a lot of guys would not be seen in such a simple and reliable machine.

Good luck in your search and process.
 
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It would be hard to get a negative response from this group but definitely more bang for the buck. Best investment I have ever made. Hey ,where are we flying this week?
IMG-0009.jpg
 
It is not for everyone, but yes you won't find to many Cons being enumerated by this forum group. However get training. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. I outline a recent case below, where a pilot such of yourself with only Piper and Cessna time (all fixed gear, fixed prop, less than 180 HP), jumped into his newly purchased experimental (Zenith) plane and crashed on his first flight. Fortunately not hurt.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=200375

Get transition training. These planes are a delight to fly, but have more power to weight ratio, less drag. The controls are very light and responsive. Since it is not certified Part 23 they are not as "stable". Stability is great but takes away some of the responsiveness. When I say not as stable I don't mean unsafe, I mean stable to the Part 23 standards which are very specific.

Maintenance - If you build a plane you can work on it and maintain it and do the annuals (called condition inspections on EAB's). Even certified planes allow pilots to do basic maintenance, but you have more freedom with EAB's in part due to not needing STC parts or having a TYPE CERTIFICATE configuration. That does not mean you can go wild. ANY major modification (look up the term) requires you go to FAA and jump through hoops, including Phase 1 flight test as if it is almost a new plane.

Experimental planes in my opinion need an engaged pilot/owner willing to do some work, not the least is taking it apart slightly and inspecting it from time to time. Since each EAB is slightly different it is good you become familiar with every aspect of it. Even if you hire an A&P you need to tell them how the plane is wired, plumbed since it may be different than a Cessna or Piper they know. Finding an A&P who knows RV's may be not easy, so you need to be the expert in your plane. It is not a basic Cessna or Piper like they have seen 1000's of times. If a person can't change a car tire or put windshield fluid in plane ownership is not for them. Rent. Since you can't rent EAB's they would not be in the picture.

THERE ARE LIMITS to experimental or EAB planes. No flying for hire or renting. Can't fly over congested areas unless taking off and landing. This latter limit I think is hard to regulate and often not rigorously adhered to. Most of the time you are not flying over LA transiting the areas, but if you were (not taking off and landing) thou shall avoid it. There are plenty of wide open spaces. To get around the letter of the Reg one could simply do a T/G landing. This is mostly a technical limit.

Training and Commercial or For Higher Uses - Getting training in your own RV you need to jump through hoops I won't get into now, but the HOOP is paper work and permission from FAA. You can not do commercial uses, rental, flight training for hire*, charters, sight seeing, pipe line patrol, fish spotting... in EAB's. (* convoluted topic currently in flux)

The big news you have a plane that can take off and land in shorter distances, climb 2 or 3 times that of a typical GA plane, go twice as fast with stall speeds slower than a C152 and do aerobatics easily with delightful control feel and visibility. It is a great cross country plane with two people, bags and fuel (now 4 ppl with RV-10). The bad news is used prices on RV's like everything has skyrocketed. You could get a nice RV for $60,000 is now double or tripled. I saw RV10 for $350,000. I remember RV10's just 10 yrs ago sold for $125,000. RV's do hold their value but current prices are nuts. If you want a bargain, a RV4 or may be an RV6 with lower HP, fixed pitch prop and basic analog gauges, no pretty paint or interior may be $40,000. Here is a secret, they still fly amazing and make a Cessna or Piper look doggy.

Last is insurance. There may be a factor there. If it is a tailwheel plane and you are no TW time pilot that may play into it as well.
 
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... Can't fly over congested areas unless taking off and landing. This latter limit I think is hard to regulate and often not rigorously adhered to. Most of the time you are not flying over LA transiting the areas, but if you were (not taking off and landing) thou shall avoid it....

I think this is an old wording in the operational limitation. The new restriction is regarding to the Phase 1 only. I've seen plenty of RVs in the highly congested LA basin.
 
I learned to fly in a C172. At about 100 hours I did tail wheel training in a Citabria then transition training in a RV7 with Mike Seagar. I bought a nicely built RV-8. Its been awesome.
 
Awesome forum! so much valuable and sound information!
i am overwhelmed with excitement.

I just joined this forum a few days ago and now I know exactly what I want:
RV-10, ifr with long-range tanks.
Time to find an expert to help me with a pre-buy and convince the bank to give me $300k
 
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