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Nutplates/rivets/Vans Stupid Manual

s10sakota

Well Known Member
I am on page 7-2 of Van's joke of a builder's manual. The third paragraph down has me rivet the K1000-4 nutplates to the forward spar side.

spar.png


It also tells me to reference DWG 11. I can't find any info about the correct rivets to use anywhere in (what Vans calls) the manual or on any of the plans pages.

Do they assume that buy now the builder will determine the correct rivets to use? Do I need a secret code or do I need to pay more money to get building instructions?

I've built two previous airplanes and have screwed up many many parts because I 'thought' I knew what I was doing and didn't reference the manual often enough.

Now I've finally learned not to do that!

I want to physically read about the correct rivets to use and even though I can see what side of the spar to rivet the nutplates on by looking at others online build logs, for my piece of mind I want to see it on the plans somewhere.

Can someone please guide me on this step.

Thanks
 
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Nuplates and rivets

Having built that many planes you should by now be aware that rivets holding nutplates are there so that the nutplate does not turn while you are tightening the bolts.
So any rivet the correct diameter and long enough to form a nice shophead will be appropriate.
Some even use a pop rivet in hard to buck places.

By the way, the manual does not tell you to install the bolts going into those specific nutplates when you install the wings, and I understand from reading the VAF forums that those bolts tend to be forgotten during final assembly.

Have fun!!
 
98% of the time when you think the info is not on the plans, you will be wrong.

Builder support at Van's most of the time will point you to where the info is at on the dwg.

Van's directions get progressively less informative. That is just the way it is.

Good luck!
 
The manual is bad and its get worse when you get to the fuselage kit. I try to skim over it at the beginning of a new section and try to catch the getcha?s but, other than that, I stick to the plans and scan other builder sites when I have a problem. This seems to work pretty well for me. It?s funny, I love plans but, I have to make myself read the instructions. Must be a guy thing.
 
Thanks guys. pgroel-I know I could try some rivets and find one that would work. But like I said, I'm really trying to build this airplane differently than I did the first two! I've had to re-order many parts and start over on the other ones because it's just my nature to have little patience! I would think I know how to do something, then do it, then find out I did it wrong because I didn't look at the manual:rolleyes:

So I figure if I slow down and read everything I won't have to re-order (many) parts.

Ok, thanks again...back to work for me...
 
Help with wings

Mark,

I was at the Chapter 13 meeting when you and your friend gave your building presentations.

I offered my aluminum wing jigs to you as I am done with them. They are still here if you want them.

As for your wing "adventures", I went through the same thing. Feel free to email me or call me while most of the wing construction is still somewhat fresh in my noggin. I found myself pouring over any print that had to do with what I was working on, eventually, I found an answer. Also, use discretion if you think something is not right. I have found some rivet callouts too short or too long. Do what is best and **** the instructions.

Take care and fly safe,

Dave Nellis
7A Slider, close to rolling the canoe
Dues paid 6/12
 
Mark,

Do you have a rivet gauge, like this one?

70.jpg


I learned a long time ago that the callouts in the plans and drawings are not always accurate. No matter what the plans say, I always measure to make sure I'm using the right rivets. It's not as critical for nutplates, since they aren't structural, but if you don't have one of these little tools, you'll soon find it to be indispensable in your work.

Good luck with your wing project!
 
Mark,
At the right end of the spar detail at the top of drawing 10A, the rivets are called out, AN426AD3-6; it's also noted that you must countersink the front of the spar doubler plate to allow the rivet heads to be flush, and put the nut plates on the aft side. The heads must be truly flush so that the F704-G spacer bars (shown on Dwg 11) in the center section will fit flush to the spar web when the whole thing is assembled.

With the exception of a few dimensions being slightly off, my experience with the plans and directions complementing each other has been pretty positive, but so far I've only done the empennage and wings, just starting the fuselage.

You don't need to pay more money, but based on what you said about not referencing the manual ofter enough, maybe you need to take a little more time. Take it from an old guy.
 
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Mark,

The RV-7 and RV-8 wings are about identical.

Could be the 7 narrative is lacking but in the 8 plan the information you seek is on DWG 11A (center section spar) view #4. It clearly specifies the plate nut rivets and placing the plate nut on the forward side of shear web.

Look again. I bet it is there.
 
This is true for the RV 8, but....

Mark,

The RV-7 and RV-8 wings are about identical.

Could be the 7 narrative is lacking but in the 8 plan the information you seek is on DWG 11A (center section spar) view #4. It clearly specifies the plate nut rivets and placing the plate nut on the forward side of shear web.

Look again. I bet it is there.

......As has been pointed out in some other posts, the instructions in the book do mention DWG 11A, but if you try to find that drawing in your large set of Wing plans that you received with your wing kit, you won't find it there. The reason? the center section plans come with the fuselage kit for the RV-8, and NOT the Wing kit, which is what you are currrently working on when this question comes up. All Vans needed to do was make a note that those plans come with the fuselage kit, and to reference the preview plans in the book for DWG 11A, but they don't, and you are left confused.

Just one in a number of areas where instruction improvements would save countless hours of headaches. The last time I spoke with someone about this, they told me that they asked Vans why they don't update the plans to correct some of these common problems, and the response was that they considered several of the designs to be "mature" and therefore they required no further updates to the plans. Pretty short sided if you ask me. In fact, I think there is a full time job waiting for someone at Vans for doing only this type of work, but that's just me I guess. I have even had the opportunity to review the plans for the newer designs, and I still find problems with those instructions as well.

Thank goodness for this site that helps us fill in so many of the blanks, even if we have to do a little searching to find the right answers.
 
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Mark,

Most of the time the Info is there somewhere. Sometimes it takes awhile to find. Make sure you look at all the details on the drawings. When I can't find something I just keep looking. Eventually I find it.

My complaint would be that they could add more detail into the instructions. Several times thus far I've struggled to figure something out then once I do I'm like that was easy why didn't they just say that.

Just remember it's all part of the learning process. You absorb a lot of knowledge during the build. As you get farther though the build you need less help.

Seems like we are at the same point in our build. I had to ask VAF how to buck those same rivets.

Good luck,



Ray
 
Here's a point that took me a long time to realise:
Some of the plan sheets are specific to either the tail dragger or the nose dragger. Fine. But occasionally a vital piece of info is only on one plan version.
I spent many hours chasing down certain details until I realised you need to check the plan for both versions.
Call me dumb.
 
Vans manuals are a whole lot better than any other manual that i have seen for a kit plane. They tell you read the entire manual before you start the build. I think Vans manuals are the best out there.
 
The sooner builders transition from the manual to the plans, the happier they'll be.

Also, buy the "preview plans." All the plans are in there so if there's a drawing that's not included in the bundle you get with the kit, it'll be in the book.
 
That's experience talkin', I love it!

The sooner builders transition from the manual to the plans, the happier they'll be.

Also, buy the "preview plans." All the plans are in there so if there's a drawing that's not included in the bundle you get with the kit, it'll be in the book.

You're the Man Bob - Great aint it?

Bob Axsom
 
I believe that you should simply use the length of rivet that the job requires. You will save yourself countless hours of searching manuals and plans if you just stick a rivet in look at it and make the go, no go decision. After building the tail you should be at a stage where you can make these basic riveting decisions. Often the plans call out for rivets are, in my opinion, just a suggestion and often call for a rivet that is too short. Get a guage, as someone else suggested, and forget looking for rivet lengths.
 
Did anyone mention a rivet cutter?

In my modification work on our RV-6A when one of my supply rivets runs low I reorder new rivets from Aircraft Spruce. I stock 3/32" and 1/8" flat heads and universal (round heads) 426 and 470s of #10 length (4 bins full of rivets). I bought a cheap rivet cutter with cut length adjustment tabs and I never have a rivet length problem.

By the way, back in my working days in aircraft production in the non flagged standard drawing notes there was an allowance to go up or down something like 3 sizes. The acceptance of the rivet installations were based on visual inspection of the installed rivets and not conformance to the pre-installed length. They did not go back and make drawing revisions for rivet callouts to accommodate tolerance buildups, etc.

Bob Axsom
 
fun isn't it! it is part of the experience:)

Vans has really good plans i think. we are building a 9a and have found omissions in the info but for the most part it is all in there. if these things were super monkey easy to build then you'd see very few listed in the classified section. when that machine is flying you will be part of a fraternity that has very few members!
i am learning so much building this thing and feel great accomplishments when i come up against something that doesn't make sense and figure it out. causes me to slow down, yes but it also makes me think ahead and plan it out.

sure hope Smitty' doesn't bungle something during his build! ha. i read that page a lot:D
 
Three suggestions:

1. Get a rivet gauge and just use whatever rivet is the correct length (as noted, sometimes the manufacturing tolerances or your assembly skills will mean a shorter or longer rivet is better sized for some particular place). The plane won't fall out of the sky if you use a different rivet than what is in the plans (just make sure it's the correct length).

2. Scan the preview plans into a PDF file, then apply the OCR algorithm to make them searchable. You can then find every callout for any particular part, bolt, nut, rivet, whatever, throughout the entire plans set. Saves a lot of time flipping pages back and forth in the book and searching for a part.

3. "...it's just my nature to have little patience..." - Make haste slowly.
 
By the way, the manual does not tell you to install the bolts going into those specific nutplates when you install the wings, and I understand from reading the VAF forums that those bolts tend to be forgotten during final assembly.

DWG 11 Area A-4 shows AN4-13A bolts there.
 
Three suggestions:


2. Scan the preview plans into a PDF file, then apply the OCR algorithm to make them searchable. You can then find every callout for any particular part, bolt, nut, rivet, whatever, throughout the entire plans set. Saves a lot of time flipping pages back and forth in the book and searching for a part.


That is a great suggestion!
 
Be advised...in the interest of Configuration Management, the actual, full-sized plans may have revisions between the time you get the Preview Plans set with the manual and the time you get the full-size plans with each subkit. (I don't recall now if you get updated 11x17 preview plans pages, too, but I don't believe so). ALWAYS CHECK the full-size plans once you've found the page/location you need.

I even used an "OBSOLETE" stamp to mark preview plans pages for those that have been updated. I know, it's anal, but it's the engineer in me... :)

But I've found the OCR-processed PDFs to be really invaluable...saved huuuuuge amounts of time on various occasions...
 
Mark,

Most of the time the Info is there somewhere. Sometimes it takes awhile to find. Make sure you look at all the details on the drawings. When I can't find something I just keep looking. Eventually I find it.

My complaint would be that they could add more detail into the instructions. Several times thus far I've struggled to figure something out then once I do I'm like that was easy why didn't they just say that.

Just remember it's all part of the learning process. You absorb a lot of knowledge during the build. As you get farther though the build you need less help.

Seems like we are at the same point in our build. I had to ask VAF how to buck those same rivets.

Good luck,



Ray

Hi Ray,
So what did you find was the easiest way to set those rivets? I'm not too keen on removing it from the jig to flip it over. I did them somehow on the left spar ages ago and I have no idea what I did. Now I'm on the right wing scratching my head.
Thanks!
 
The bottom line

Here's the BIBLE on riveting. Rivet guages are fine but in my opinion, know the facts: http://vansaircraft.com/public/Specs.htm#TABLE III .Tabel III tells it all. Buy an anolog 1,000th measuring tool from Harbor freight or where ever. (needed for measuring material thickness) Measure the driven heights of the shop end, if within range, the diam. will 99% be in the range if you used close to the right length rivet.

Rivet guages measure the mean but are not the end all. If a rivet guage does'nt fit or is loose over the shop head, passes or not on the verticle, it doesnt mean its wrong. Should be called a rivet guide.
 
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