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Help! I need a licence

larrys

Well Known Member
Maybe someone can suggest an idea?
For years I have wanted to build a Vans plane. We went to about 4 airshows a year selling hangars. Unbelievable fun! I finally settled on the 14A. Took a test fly at Oshkosh and was sold.
It took 4 years for my neighbor Dan and I to build the RV14. What a blast! I would build another one.
During this time I have been flying with instructors and taking the written 3 times now because they are only good for 2 years. I have over 160 hour. And I had a check ride scheduled for April 9th 2020. And of course it was cancelled because of Covid.
Now after all this time has passed I feel like I have lost it all. I can fly OK in 172's but I still need more time in the RV to master it. Big difference!
I have all the hours, current medical, written...
I think the best thing for me is to go to a place away from work and home and camp out till I pass. And it would be best if it where an uncontrolled, the radio is the hardest part for me.

Would anyone have an idea of where to go and who would have such a service? I know I would be a bad student but I would keep at it till I get the ticket.

Building the plane (that now has about 50 hours on it) was easier then getting a licence. At this point it seems to be a huge mountain to climb. But can't wait to fly in and land on the colored dot.

I'm grateful for VAF!!
Thanks, Larry
 
Maybe someone can suggest an idea?
For years I have wanted to build a Vans plane. We went to about 4 airshows a year selling hangars. Unbelievable fun! I finally settled on the 14A. Took a test fly at Oshkosh and was sold.
It took 4 years for my neighbor Dan and I to build the RV14. What a blast! I would build another one.
During this time I have been flying with instructors and taking the written 3 times now because they are only good for 2 years. I have over 160 hour. And I had a check ride scheduled for April 9th 2020. And of course it was cancelled because of Covid.
Now after all this time has passed I feel like I have lost it all. I can fly OK in 172's but I still need more time in the RV to master it. Big difference!
I have all the hours, current medical, written...
I think the best thing for me is to go to a place away from work and home and camp out till I pass. And it would be best if it where an uncontrolled, the radio is the hardest part for me.

Would anyone have an idea of where to go and who would have such a service? I know I would be a bad student but I would keep at it till I get the ticket.

Building the plane (that now has about 50 hours on it) was easier then getting a licence. At this point it seems to be a huge mountain to climb. But can't wait to fly in and land on the colored dot.

I'm grateful for VAF!!
Thanks, Larry

Yes, flying is a perishable skill; if you don't use it, you lose it.

It is nice that you have all of the time required for the license but you will still need to be able to pass an oral examine, usually a bit more in depth than the written test. You will also need to demonstrate flying skills to at least the minimum standard before any instructor would sign you off for a check ride.

As far as being away from controlled airspace, well, that is part of the check ride so you will need to demonstrate competency there, too.

Keep at it and you will get through and it will be worth it!
 
What Bob said...

...plus, if you fly OK in the Cessna, and want to get the license more quickly, why not finish the private pilot ticket in the Cessna first? Get it done. Then, get training in your RV.

Regarding avoiding 'controlled' airspace, that's avoiding one of the most vital pilot skills. Why would you want to 'land on the colored dot' on runways controlled by the world's busiest control tower without getting really good at flying into controlled airports?
 
Another possibility -- your choice -- is to separate the radio / airspace training from the flight training. I have no idea how many apps / web sites there are for radio training, or how many are any good, but ground instruction is tons cheaper than in the air training.

A big part will be finding an instructor who can make it easy for you. Like so many things new, practice is your friend.

So make it a point to have fun learning that radio stuff!

Ed
 
I had a similar situation to yours where I just couldn't get enough flying time at my local flight school to finish off my license. I had started long ago and I too had to retake the written. I didn't have quite as many flight hours as you but more than enough to meet the required minimums. I started looking for a place that did "finish up" training. You might want to do the same.

The place I found was American Flyers in Scottsdale. It is expensive, but part of that perception may be because it took me a while to transition to glass panel and a different plane. They primarily fly the Piper 100i with G3X but I think they now have a C172 with a G3X. There I was able to fly every day and some days twice a day. This is something that is unheard of at my local school. That amount of flying really helped build my confidence and skills. Scottsdale is a fairly busy airport with lots of business jets so that requires you to get your radio skills tuned up. Also, the Phoenix Class B airspace is pretty close and you can do the transition. I actually had to do the transition on my solo flights. By the time I was ready to do those we had practiced the transition a few times and I realized it wasn't as big a deal as I originally thought. Most days I would fly for 3 hours in the morning and then go back to my hotel and study the material they provided to prep for the oral portion of the check ride. I went there by myself so it allowed me to focus on just flying which is sometimes difficult at home. They have deals with a couple of hotels for reduced rates so that was helpful too.

This approach worked for me and I think it could work for you if you can find the right place.
 
KFLY

Hi Larry,
If you do decide to finish things off before getting more RV time, I would recommend Springs Aviation at KFLY. Lots of 172s and some 182s. It ticks the box of uncontrolled (G) airspace, and you can get more radio practice going in and out of KCOS (C) space. It's what I've done. You will also get to know the pilots on the field (if you haven't already done so) and maybe that creates an opportunity for RV flight???? I'm nearing first flight of my -7 and my hangar mate has a new -9A he's now flying. Lots of RVs out there. Happy to visit if you like.
 
Hi Larry,
If you do decide to finish things off before getting more RV time, I would recommend Springs Aviation at KFLY. Lots of 172s and some 182s. It ticks the box of uncontrolled (G) airspace, and you can get more radio practice going in and out of KCOS (C) space. It's what I've done. You will also get to know the pilots on the field (if you haven't already done so) and maybe that creates an opportunity for RV flight???? I'm nearing first flight of my -7 and my hangar mate has a new -9A he's now flying. Lots of RVs out there. Happy to visit if you like.

I can not say anything good about Springs Aviation. It was a very bad experience for me. I flew with a couple instructors and it was a waist of time and it was more like "lets go around a hundred more times" and you won't be ready. I have flown at Peterson, COS, Air Force Academy, Aspen. I have about 12+ solo so the actual flying I think would come back quickly. Over time it has "grown" to be a big deal.
Our hangar is at KFLY (Meadowlake) so I have a lot of experience their. But thanks for the advice.
 
For the radio, your best bet is to spend as much time as possible in that airspace. Flying into uncontrolled airports all the time won't improve that skill. I did my primary flight training right by LAX. Almost all my flights were into controlled airports and with flight following. When I moved out to northern Arizona, I was constantly thinking my radio died since it was so quiet. Practice will make improvement, eventually it will become second nature.
 
I had a similar situation to yours where I just couldn't get enough flying time at my local flight school to finish off my license. I had started long ago and I too had to retake the written. I didn't have quite as many flight hours as you but more than enough to meet the required minimums. I started looking for a place that did "finish up" training. You might want to do the same.

The place I found was American Flyers in Scottsdale. It is expensive, but part of that perception may be because it took me a while to transition to glass panel and a different plane. They primarily fly the Piper 100i with G3X but I think they now have a C172 with a G3X. There I was able to fly every day and some days twice a day. This is something that is unheard of at my local school. That amount of flying really helped build my confidence and skills. Scottsdale is a fairly busy airport with lots of business jets so that requires you to get your radio skills tuned up. Also, the Phoenix Class B airspace is pretty close and you can do the transition. I actually had to do the transition on my solo flights. By the time I was ready to do those we had practiced the transition a few times and I realized it wasn't as big a deal as I originally thought. Most days I would fly for 3 hours in the morning and then go back to my hotel and study the material they provided to prep for the oral portion of the check ride. I went there by myself so it allowed me to focus on just flying which is sometimes difficult at home. They have deals with a couple of hotels for reduced rates so that was helpful too.

This approach worked for me and I think it could work for you if you can find the right place.

I have talked with American Flyers and I think you are right.
 
For the radio, your best bet is to spend as much time as possible in that airspace. Flying into uncontrolled airports all the time won't improve that skill. I did my primary flight training right by LAX. Almost all my flights were into controlled airports and with flight following. When I moved out to northern Arizona, I was constantly thinking my radio died since it was so quiet. Practice will make improvement, eventually it will become second nature.

Thank you! I do agree, I was thinking "get past the licence" and then improve the radio skills
You are right
 
Another, possibly less expensive option would be to roll your own "Finish-up" program with the CFI you've already been flying with. Get a hotel room close to the airport, and fly as often as you can in the plane you'll take your checkride in. Probably best to stick to the 172 you were flying as that's what you're most comfortable with and also you won't run into any potential DPE issues not wanting to give you a check ride in an E-AB aircraft (some will, some won't). But you could also start off in the 14 (especially if scheduling the 172 is problematic) and see how it goes and revert back to the 172 if you and your CFI aren't happy.

Then after you get your ticket, you can take your time and get comfortable, with the 14.

As for the radio, it just takes practice. There's apps/software that can help with that. Listening to LiveATC on the internet can be another tool.

You built a plane -- you can do this!
 
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Congratulations!!!

It took 4 years for my neighbor Dan and I to build the RV14.

I'm grateful for VAF!!
Thanks, Larry

Larry, first off----congrats on getting the 14 built!!! :D

Now, go get that license taken care of.

As I have no idea who/where to advise you on, I will just go away now.
 
I think you just need to make the training a priority in your life. I don't think you need to go to a far off location, just make it a priority. "Git er dun!" I did it as a 16/17 year old kid oh so many years ago. You can do it!
 
about the radio and controlled fields...

I believe what Larry is feeling is understandable and relatively common. We all differ in what we are comfortable with. I've been licensed since 1990 and have logged over 1500 hours, plus 40 years as a ham operator making me not exactly mic-shy. Yet when I plan a cross-country I will studiously avoid controlled airspace and anywhere that I have to talk to anybody - save on the Unicom. It's a strong preference, mostly rooted in the desire to be left alone to do my thing and not to be charged an arm and two other extremities for airport services after I land.

He will have to suck it up to get the ticket, but interacting with busy airspace and its overseers is not a necessary part of general / sport aviation most times, if that is how he wants to pursue it. Of course it helps that I can get clearance in and out of home base without talking to anyone but the dog. Folks based at public airports often don't have that option.
 
I can not say anything good about Springs Aviation. It was a very bad experience for me. I flew with a couple instructors and it was a waist of time and it was more like "lets go around a hundred more times" and you won't be ready. I have flown at Peterson, COS, Air Force Academy, Aspen. I have about 12+ solo so the actual flying I think would come back quickly. Over time it has "grown" to be a big deal.
Our hangar is at KFLY (Meadowlake) so I have a lot of experience their. But thanks for the advice.


Unfortunately, I hear this far too often while instructing. As stated before, flying is a perishable skill; if you do not use it, you will lose it. More importantly, the instructor is tasked with evaluating your performance against a minimum standard. You either meet the standard or you do not. I am fairly sure most instructors would not sign you off without a reliable, repeatable demonstration of flying skills that meet or exceed the minimum standards.

Are there some instructors out there that will "milk" time? Yes, but in my experience, they are the exception and not the rule.

Another issue I often see is students with time in their logbook that is years, if not decades old. Does it count towards total time? Absolutely. However, just because it is in the logbook doesn't mean that the student is currently up to standards now.

Dedication of time and effort is paramount to completing your training. People trying to get their PPL by flying once a week ALWAYS take more time, as they have to repeat part of the last lesson to move forward...

Stay focussed, put the time and effort in, and you WILL be successful!
 
thanks

I really thank you for your encouragement!

Unfortunately, I hear this far too often while instructing. As stated before, flying is a perishable skill; if you do not use it, you will lose it. More importantly, the instructor is tasked with evaluating your performance against a minimum standard. You either meet the standard or you do not. I am fairly sure most instructors would not sign you off without a reliable, repeatable demonstration of flying skills that meet or exceed the minimum standards.

Are there some instructors out there that will "milk" time? Yes, but in my experience, they are the exception and not the rule.

Another issue I often see is students with time in their logbook that is years, if not decades old. Does it count towards total time? Absolutely. However, just because it is in the logbook doesn't mean that the student is currently up to standards now.

Dedication of time and effort is paramount to completing your training. People trying to get their PPL by flying once a week ALWAYS take more time, as they have to repeat part of the last lesson to move forward...

Stay focussed, put the time and effort in, and you WILL be successful!
 
Larry: Give the crew over at "Talk2Tower" a call about their program. It's based on what each pilot needs and is taught by a combination of CFI's and ATC personnel. I believe they work both in person and remotely with the student, instructor and ATC person.
 
Yet when I plan a cross-country I will studiously avoid controlled airspace and anywhere that I have to talk to anybody - save on the Unicom. It's a strong preference, mostly rooted in the desire to be left alone to do my thing and not to be charged an arm and two other extremities for airport services after I land.

I am just the opposite, I always ask myself "Why should I have to fly 10 minutes out of my way just to avoid talking to someone?". At Ft Hood, there is the big Restricted area to the north of Killeen. I ask if I can go through every single time :D, haven't gotten clearance once, but they often tell me the Bravo area to the SE is cold, and let me through there.

I do however studiously avoid paying for any airport services if I can help it. I would rather land at a small satellite field and drive a little extra in the courtesy car than land at the big Delta or Charlie nearby. In OKC, I have landed many times when they put you on the east runway, opposite side of the free FBO, expecting me to go to the big fancy place. Nope, gonna need a taxi around to the west side :p Even then, I have attempted to pre-empt it by telling them I will be going to the FBO on the west side, and asked for the west runway (which was definitely closed due to some sort of prisoner exchange or whatever), just in case it was possible to get in there anyway.

I'm not a jerk about it, but you need to know what you want to do, and know to ask, many times they will help you out once you ask, but you need to be comfortable enough on the radio to ask.

Larry, there are resources for getting more comfortable on the radio, but my experience has been that just plowing through is the best. Yeah, you're gonna sound silly at first, we all did, but I would look at it like a challenge: Am I going to limit myself to where I can fly because of a silly sounding voice on the radio? No way! Everyone who graduates from clown college thought that people were making fun of them, and they were right! But that didn't stop them from getting an education.

Pull up the liveATC at a sleepier Delta, and try to respond to the tower controller before the pilot does, out loud, at your desk. Use Flightradar or adsbexchange to watch an aircraft and try to make the radio calls before the pilot does at each stage of the flight. Once you have the mental picture in your head of what needs to happen at each stage, it gets easier to talk cause you aren't trying to craft the sentence before pushing the button.

You can do it!
 
And Please,

Please, never, ever, never ever, not in a million years or in a galaxy far, far away, utter the totally useless, verbotten words that make , or should make ALL pilots cringe….

“Any traffic in the area please advise….”

I may go vomit just after typing them…
 
Talk

I detest excess talk on CTAF. Worst example-xxx is 8 miles southwest last call. Likewise the use of the world uncontrolled. Its NON TOWER.
 
Thank you! I do agree, I was thinking "get past the licence" and then improve the radio skills
You are right

Larry,
I recommend you master this one weakness as you proceed with your training (radio communication) and not put it off. You will always need this skill and any deficiency in this area will probably show up on a checkride with the FAA or a designee.
I had a student once that could fly like a champ, but when he picked up the microphone (we didn’t use headsets back then), he would freeze up. He came to us at our tower controlled field from an uncontrolled airport, and basically never used the radio, except to listen.
I told him that all he needed to do was to tell the controlling agency (tower, ground, approach control) 1. Who you are; 2. Where you are; 3. What you want to do. I gave him written examples of normal responses to each of these three items, and told him to memorize them, and practice saying them at home….. over and over again. I don’t think it was more than two flights in and out of our towered airport that he started to be more comfortable with using the radio and his phraseology was spot on. I had no concern with recommending this student for his PPL checkride because he could fly the airplane so well (plenty of good instruction), and he had overcome a relatively minor deficiency, which took just a little time.
 
I am just the opposite, I always ask myself "Why should I have to fly 10 minutes out of my way just to avoid talking to someone?". At Ft Hood, there is the big Restricted area to the north of Killeen. I ask if I can go through every single time :D, haven't gotten clearance once, but they often tell me the Bravo area to the SE is cold, and let me through there.

I do however studiously avoid paying for any airport services if I can help it. I would rather land at a small satellite field and drive a little extra in the courtesy car than land at the big Delta or Charlie nearby. In OKC, I have landed many times when they put you on the east runway, opposite side of the free FBO, expecting me to go to the big fancy place. Nope, gonna need a taxi around to the west side :p Even then, I have attempted to pre-empt it by telling them I will be going to the FBO on the west side, and asked for the west runway (which was definitely closed due to some sort of prisoner exchange or whatever), just in case it was possible to get in there anyway.

I'm not a jerk about it, but you need to know what you want to do, and know to ask, many times they will help you out once you ask, but you need to be comfortable enough on the radio to ask.

Larry, there are resources for getting more comfortable on the radio, but my experience has been that just plowing through is the best. Yeah, you're gonna sound silly at first, we all did, but I would look at it like a challenge: Am I going to limit myself to where I can fly because of a silly sounding voice on the radio? No way! Everyone who graduates from clown college thought that people were making fun of them, and they were right! But that didn't stop them from getting an education.

Pull up the liveATC at a sleepier Delta, and try to respond to the tower controller before the pilot does, out loud, at your desk. Use Flightradar or adsbexchange to watch an aircraft and try to make the radio calls before the pilot does at each stage of the flight. Once you have the mental picture in your head of what needs to happen at each stage, it gets easier to talk cause you aren't trying to craft the sentence before pushing the button.

You can do it!

I'm in your camp as well. Using flight following and listening to ATC keeps me entertained and engaged on long cross countries. I also firmly believe it makes better/more attentive pilots. Anyone who has their IFR ticket can tell you how much better they are at managing task saturation while still paying attention than they ever were before. Now, there's certainly thousands of pilots with incredible stick and rudder skills, but the best pilots are extremely well-rounded.

And to RV8iator's point, one should always try to sound as cool as possible on the radio. I mean, RV's are basically fighters anyway :D
 
Use unused time to practice

Larry,
I recommend you master this one weakness as you proceed with your training (radio communication) and not put it off...

1. What Scott said.
When working on my PPL, I used the time spent driving to the airport to practice radio calls, using this Who, Where, What format, for every expected radio call.
Once I had these down, I started practicing engine-out and other emergency comms.

2. In order, decide what you will say; key the mic; say it briefly; un-key the mic.
Don't key the mic, THEN think of what you want to say...
 
Write it down

Candidly, I struggled with the radio calls as well during my initial training. My mind would just freeze because I was task saturated with flying.

The key is to separate the two. My Instructor did some specific ground training on the key phases for the close by airport with a control tower. He literally wrote it out on the white board all the phases, and what I needed to repeat back to the tower. Once I could Hear it, See it and then Write it, it was then easier for me to visualize and be ready to SAY it.

Then it made a lot more sense when I was listening to "LiveATC" on my phone. I could select that specific tower and listen to the controller that I would be talking to. I will still log in and listen a few hours before my flight just to help me get back in the groove if I haven't flown for a couple of weeks.

The radio work takes a little bit of effort to build that brain muscle memory. Once you have it worked out on the ground, it is easier to replicate when in the air.

Are my radio calls perfect every time? ...Nope!! But they get the point across and are clear.

Practice makes perfect!!
 
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