Are last generation EFIS still relevant?

I’m curious what the view of the last generation EFIS options is. Examples would be the Dynon D series, GRT HX/SX, G3X non-touch, and equivalents.

Are these still relevant for a new installation today compared to the multitude of new configurations now offered? How does manufacturer support play in for your choice? With some of these being discontinued and only available on the used market now, do market rates reflect value in them? Does the decision making change if you’re building an IFR panel?

On the value proposition, a non EFIS example could be the used market for say a 430W compared to a new 650 or a 175. From what I see, it’s hard to justify a used 430 over a new 175 for the same price.

We’re still flying the original non-touch G3X’s in our -3, and also have GRT HX’s in the RV-8. All still work and do everything required of them, and software is still supported. Would I put them in a new build? Probably not, but that’s because I am always trying to try new things, and that is what the industry wants me to do. But I am not planning on upgrading those planes in the near future....

Ironflight said:

We’re still flying the original non-touch G3X’s in our -3, and also have GRT HX’s in the RV-8. All still work and do everything required of them, and software is still supported. Would I put them in a new build? Probably not, but that’s because I am always trying to try new things, and that is what the industry wants me to do. But I am not planning on upgrading those planes in the near future....

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Software and map support are the concerns. It’s technology, and these companies will eventually stop supporting them. In some situations, it will render them essentially useless, forcing an upgrade or change.

No matter what efis system you install it will go out of date and there will be no longer any support.

Depends

I am still flying with the original D-100, D-120, HD-34, SL-30, GTX 327, TT Autopilot, and Aera 796. Systems have been basically rock solid for 12+ years and have done what I needed. Now going through an upgrade to add IFR GPS navigation and whatever system you pick (Dynon, Garmin etc.) to replace the EFIS/EMS and add the new systems requires ripping out all the older stuff, a substantial amount of rewiring and significant cost.

On the other hand if you can live with the existing D-100/D-120 functionality you can add a GNX 175/375 and get the enhanced GPS NAV functionality at a reasonably (in airplane dollars) affordable price. In my case I have gone for the GNX 375/Aera 760 combo which will replace the GTX 327, GDL 82, GDL 39 3D, and Aera 796.

The combo will drive the TT autopilot with vertical guidance, provide traffic and weather, synthetic vision/AHARS, chart overlays, and VHF and GPS Navigation selectable via the HS34.

Your question is focused on a new install and I would not suggest starting a new build with the legacy systems because of the support and wiring issues should you decide to upgrade later, but just because they are legacy does not mean that they do not have value.

The one good thing is that the avionics vendors and it seems the FAA have recognized that there are a large number of legacy aircraft that would benefit from capability upgrades and as a result there are a number of offerings that are not all 10 inch glass panel installations that cost a bunch. Looking on VAF threads it looks like you can do a lot with a couple of G5's and a 175.
Figs

When I bought my plane less than a year ago, it had an Advanced Flight 4500 EFIS and a 3500s that I use as a moving map display. I found that 12 year-old equipment to be extremely functional and had no plans to upgrade it...right up until the Crossbow ADAHRS in it died. Then my choice was to either have Rob Hickman try to breathe life back into that 4500 EFIS from old legacy parts he had sitting around (which I'm sure he could have done), or upgrade it. I opted to upgrade to their newer AFS generation and bought a 5400 because I didn't want cut a new panel. The newer generation is fast and better designed, and has a few new tricks that make it a great EFIS, but I was perfectly happy with the 4500 EFIS and never felt compelled to upgrade...unlike my 430W and its klunky Garmin interface, which I'm itching to upgrade. I'm sure that there is an IFD440 somewhere out there with my name on it.

Norman CYYJ said:

No matter what efis system you install it will go out of date and there will be no longer any support.

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Eventually, sure. But for most avionics, support for discontinued products seems to be pretty good for quite a long time (e.g., GNS-430W, etc.). I imagine that someday in the future, they may finally drop support for them, but then a whole cottage industry should spring up to support them; after all, you can still get avionics techs to work on some *really* ancient pieces of equipment, right?

Northernliving said:

Software and map support are the concerns. It’s technology, and these companies will eventually stop supporting them. In some situations, it will render them essentially useless, forcing an upgrade or change.

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To be open, I pretty much quit updating Nav and terrain databases in the EFIS’es because:

A) I have up to date NAV data on my iPad and iPhone all the time
B) In the IFR airplanes, I have an IFR navigator with up to date Nav data
C) In the VFR-only airplanes, see (A) above

And

D) Terrain and airport locations rarely change on a human timescale....

Paul

I just swapped out my old GRT WS units and ARINC for two new GRT Horizon EX units and ARINC module. Love the increased functionality (SV, voice warnings, touch screen on primary PDF, faster processor, and brighter, sharper screens). Like mentioned earlier, I cannot support purchase of a 430W to replace one of my non-WAAS 430s. My next targeted upgrade will be the GNC 355 gps/comm. Same price as a used 430W but fits my needs much better. My remaining non-WAAS 430 can provide VOR/LOC/ILS functionality and the 355 has a warranty.

PS. I have two used WS units, one with an attached ARINC, and the other an attached VFR gps (non-WAAS) that I’ll sell reasonably priced. PM with offer.

Ironflight said:

To be open, I pretty much quit updating Nav and terrain databases in the EFIS’es because:

D) Terrain and airport locations rarely change on a human timescale....

Paul

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One time I had that philosophy, but then there was a number of airports had their designations changed. . Finding airports in the database became hard forcing me to update.

Ironflight said:

To be open, I pretty much quit updating Nav and terrain databases in the EFIS’es because:

A) I have up to date NAV data on my iPad and iPhone all the time
B) In the IFR airplanes, I have an IFR navigator with up to date Nav data
C) In the VFR-only airplanes, see (A) above

And

D) Terrain and airport locations rarely change on a human timescale....

Paul

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I am in the same camp. I feel the only thing that I am missing is up to date obstacle data (technically on the ipad, but no EFIS warnings), but it seems that the really tall stuff (1000' TV antenna) doesn't change much and I am not worried about the 200' cell towers constantly popping up, as I rarely fly at 200' AGL.

I put non-touch G3X's in my 10 two yeas ago. Saved a hefty sum and don't feel that I am missing much, as I am not a fan of touch screens. As long as the manufacturer seems committed to the older gear, no real issue going that route. Some of us are gadgets guys and need the latest/greatest and some are not. Personal choice.

Larry

RVDan said:

One time I had that philosophy, but then there was a number of airports had their designations changed. . Finding airports in the database became hard forcing me to update.

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Tangential issue....

I saw a variant of this just this morning, when I was teaching an IR student in a simulator about VOR tracking and victor airways.

The sim database, which had not been updated in a long time contained a fix and an airway that no longer exist. The poor guy was getting frustrated as I told him to intercept an airway and fly to a specific intersection. He couldn't find it on his Foreflight chart because it literally didn't exist. Found out later it was because the specific VOR had been de-commissioned and the sim hadn't been updated.

Advanced Flight provides a Seattle Avionics subscription for $99/year. I don't update the map database immediately, but downloading a new database only takes a few minutes, and uploading the new database to the EFIS from the flash drive is simple and takes less than 60 seconds. So...I update it fairly often. I started doing this after some confusion landing at KDTL. Although the runway was the same, they changed its published heading and the confusion came when the runway heading didn't match what I had in the EFIS database. My 5400 provides an audio warning at startup if the database isn't current. I'm sure I could disable it in Settings, but haven't felt the need.

(I also have Foreflight and usually fly with an iPad suction-cupped to my panel).

RV7A Flyer said:

Eventually, sure. But for most avionics, support for discontinued products seems to be pretty good for quite a long time (e.g., GNS-430W, etc.). I imagine that someday in the future, they may finally drop support for them, but then a whole cottage industry should spring up to support them; after all, you can still get avionics techs to work on some *really* ancient pieces of equipment, right?

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i would not count on a cottage industry springing up to support un-supported equipment. newer designs use ultra high density surface mount chips, custom programmed and configured chips, and custom designed displays. these types of designs are not meant to be repaired. try to change a 164 pin surface mount chip.

the repair process is, change the whole board.

these types of components are most often made in big batch of "how many will we ever need?" run. when the supply is gone, it's over. sometimes that is long while, like in the case of the 430, however, even that is support is coming to an end. the killer there is the display screen. the supply is almost gone, and the cost to run a batch is not an economic possibility. when they are gone, garmin will shut down support and that will be the end of getting them fixed. the fact that garmin has been raising the price of repairs to those units indicates that they are trying to push people to upgrade rather than repair them.
there will be a market for used equipment, but the price will be based on throwing it away when it dies. which means if you are willing to take the risk, there will be very capable equipment at a good price, but maybe not a good long term economic idea.

n82rb said:

i would not count on a cottage industry springing up to support un-supported equipment. newer designs use ultra high density surface mount chips, custom programmed and configured chips, and custom designed displays. these types of designs are not meant to be repaired. try to change a 164 pin surface mount chip.

the repair process is, change the whole board.

these types of components are most often made in big batch of "how many will we ever need?" run. when the supply is gone, it's over. sometimes that is long while, like in the case of the 430, however, even that is support is coming to an end. the killer there is the display screen. the supply is almost gone, and the cost to run a batch is not an economic possibility. when they are gone, garmin will shut down support and that will be the end of getting them fixed. the fact that garmin has been raising the price of repairs to those units indicates that they are trying to push people to upgrade rather than repair them.
there will be a market for used equipment, but the price will be based on throwing it away when it dies. which means if you are willing to take the risk, there will be very capable equipment at a good price, but maybe not a good long term economic idea.

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Well, you have to pay your money and take your chances at *some* point. What's the alternative?

The 430W was end-of-lifed around a decade ago (just a few months after I bought mine, LOL!), and they're still supporting it. I don't know that it's "coming to an end" anytime soon, but so what? It's worked for 10 years, it'll probably work another 10, and if the worst happens and it fails and can't be repaired or replaced, well, guess I'll have to spend money. Goes with the hobby.

And unless your EFIS manufacturer goes out of business, most of them are new enough I expect we're at the beginning (or, at worst, the early middle) of the complete product lifecycle for any of them from the major players (Dynon, etc.).

n82rb said:

...in the case of the 430, however, even that is support is coming to an end. the killer there is the display screen. the supply is almost gone, and the cost to run a batch is not an economic possibility. when they are gone, garmin will shut down support and that will be the end of getting them fixed. the fact that garmin has been raising the price of repairs to those units indicates that they are trying to push people to upgrade rather than repair them.

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BTW, I don't know what Garmin's business model is, but if a shortage of *one* component of a multi-component system shuts down the entirety of support, that seems pretty poor to me. What if what failed on a unit is NOT the display screen, and you have those parts on hand? Maybe it's not economical to keep people trained in how to do those repairs, but maybe there is still money to be made in continuing to repair the ones you can, eh?