VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #11  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:01 AM
cderk's Avatar
cderk cderk is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Park Ridge, NJ
Posts: 870
Default

That?s what I was thinking Steve. The autopilot would control everything and just tell the pilot to advance or dial back the throttle to control the airspeed.
__________________
RV10 N688CD flying since 2020
Lifetime EAA Member
FlyingThe10 on YouTube
FlyingThe10 On Facebook
FlyingThe10 On Instagram
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:10 AM
wcalvert's Avatar
wcalvert wcalvert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Anacortes Wa
Posts: 481
Default

A no autothrottle approach (AT) is often called a "CAT II Monitored" approach when coupled to an ILS.

Following the Glide Slope down the chute on an RNAV type approach is no big tech deal, and having the pilot control airspeed with the throttle is pretty simple too (in a two person crew the pilot monitoring would act as the AT). In a certified aircraft the Radio Alt is critical since GPS isn't accurate enough to determine the start of the flare. In a "Passive Fail" system with no rudder inputs from the AP, assuming you hit the runway and flare properly, the aircraft has no way to track the centerline on roll out (maybe not a big deal here).

So if you can develop an AP that will track Vertical Nav (VNAV) and the course (LNAV) you can fly a RNAV RNP type approach all the way to the flare... then some piloting may be required for the last few feet!

I don't know of any RNAV RNP type approaches that are currently certified for Auto Land in the certified world...
__________________
RV-7 Tipper
Bill (Wild) VA-165 '90-'93
Anacortes, Wa

First Flight 7/17/2021!! 200 hours 6/22
- Been there, Donated 2022
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:17 AM
rv8ch's Avatar
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGY
Posts: 4,909
Default emergency landing system

You could just hook it up to your magnetos and the autopilot could fly with whatever throttle setting it has to a safe approach, cutting the mags when it has enough potential energy to make the runway or field.

Believe it or not, all aircraft used to run at full throttle, and cutting the "mags" was how the pilot reduced power.
__________________
Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/help-people-in-ukraine/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-01-2019, 12:29 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 3,122
Default umm...

"...(in a two person crew the pilot monitoring would act as the AT)..."

Yeah, no...
__________________
Bob
EAA Tech Counselor
Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10-ER
N464RL
Going to Paint at Evoke!
Garmin G3X-T, Barrett EFII S32, CAI, MTV-9B

Dues+ Paid 2021,...Thanks DR+
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-01-2019, 01:18 PM
supik supik is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 260
Default Congrats to GARMIN

Great achievement!

AT is not required for Autoland. I can imagine some kind of graphics on the G3X screen commanding the passenger/remaining pilot to operate the throttle as required to keep the airplane flying, but I am sure Garmin has already solved this step. Fadec/AT on the Lycosaurus would be a nice addition and it's long overdue with today's technology.

My guess is that for a G3X system a yaw damper servo and a radio altimeter would be required to accomplish a successful autoland. +the button to activate it

EDIT: after reading the article I realized everything was mentioned there. I should read before writing
__________________
Igor

RV-10 (Test Phase)
Build Log

Last edited by supik : 11-01-2019 at 02:29 PM. Reason: little more reading
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-01-2019, 01:30 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 3,122
Default umm...

"...AT is not required for Autoland..."

Uh, if you don't have AT then it isn't an autoland because you are intervening...
__________________
Bob
EAA Tech Counselor
Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10-ER
N464RL
Going to Paint at Evoke!
Garmin G3X-T, Barrett EFII S32, CAI, MTV-9B

Dues+ Paid 2021,...Thanks DR+
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-01-2019, 01:37 PM
bkervaski's Avatar
bkervaski bkervaski is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 1,929
Default

Seems in addition to the 3-axis AP a throttle servo and a mag ground would be all that's needed for a safe automated landing.

May not be as sophisticated as the full solution they are offering with the announcement but it would be way better than the alternative.

Automated broadcast over CTAF or Tower and ADSB should widen the safety margins enough.

I'd install that.
__________________
N196 RV-14A #140376 (Flying) 2019 Bronze Lindy
N169 Carbon Cub EX-3 (Finishing)
N15Z RV-15 (Waiting ... impatiently)

Last edited by bkervaski : 11-01-2019 at 01:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:03 PM
joe gremlin's Avatar
joe gremlin joe gremlin is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 183
Default

Don't forget servos for the brakes. Otherwise the system would have no way of steering or stopping once on the runway.

All the media I've seen on this so far talks about autoland as a tool for emergency situations. Pilot incapacitation and the like. Can the system also be used just as an autoland by the pilot i.e. without the automated airport selection, without the automated radio calls and without the 'hey idiot watch this video or die' canned videos taking over the displays.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:34 PM
plehrke's Avatar
plehrke plehrke is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Defiance, MO
Posts: 1,974
Default

Auto land
Technically feasible- absolutely
Economically practical for general aviation- maybe
Market demand if to be used only for emergencies - very little
Market demand if can be used for any landings - somewhat more than very little
Reduction in general aviation deaths - minimal (save about equal to that from ballistic parachutes but loose some that “hit the button” to land in a situation that should be avoided like bad weather and outside parameters envisioned for the auto land system)

Your opinion may differ.
__________________
Philip
RV-6A - flying 1000+ hours
Paid dues yearly since 2007

There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. óMARK TWAIN

Last edited by plehrke : 11-01-2019 at 02:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:55 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 8,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe gremlin View Post
All the media I've seen on this so far talks about autoland as a tool for emergency situations. Pilot incapacitation and the like. Can the system also be used just as an autoland by the pilot i.e. without the automated airport selection, without the automated radio calls and without the 'hey idiot watch this video or die' canned videos taking over the displays.
For non-emergency use, the system clearly lacks the triple-redundancy built into cat III autopilots, so a rule change would be needed.

Since this system is designed for emergency use only, I think many of us are not too far away already - if the goal is saving lives, not the airplane. I run a Trio autopilot/GRT efis/G420W/SL30 ILS. I'm sure other avionics are equally capable. If I set up a coupled approach (ILS or LPV) at 70 kias/partial flaps, the system will fly the airplane onto the runway (nose first), likely breaking the nose gear, prop strike, possibly exiting off the side of the runway, maybe breaking the main gear if the airplane is in enough of a crab, etc. - but most likely survivable for passengers. "All" that's needed is to automate the initial set up (to something a passenger can do), and to set the throttle to an appropriate setting.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.