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my crash debriefing

I see the value in testing without the boost pump on. Is there not value in leaving the configuration you had during the runup the same as during the takeoff? Since I'm going to take off with the boost pump on, I like to do the runup with the boost pump on. I've tested the mechanical during taxi, although that's certainly not full power. I wonder if testing boost both on and off during the runup would be best?

I'm sure I've read of a crash that was caused by the boost pump causing too much fuel to get to the engine - I think it was a mooney or bonanza. I'd hate to find out something is wrong when running the boost pump during the takeoff roll.
There is always value in limiting configuration changes close to starting the take-off roll but in this instance it is adding the operation of an additional fuel pump… not likely to cause an unintended issue, and in my opinion, individually confirming the operation of both fuel pumps being able to provide sufficient fuel flow on their own is far more important.
I.e., one of the purposes of the run up is test equipment for proper operation vs just configure it for takeoff.
 
I see the value in testing without the boost pump on. Is there not value in leaving the configuration you had during the runup the same as during the takeoff? Since I'm going to take off with the boost pump on, I like to do the runup with the boost pump on. I've tested the mechanical during taxi, although that's certainly not full power. I wonder if testing boost both on and off during the runup would be best?

I'm sure I've read of a crash that was caused by the boost pump causing too much fuel to get to the engine - I think it was a mooney or bonanza. I'd hate to find out something is wrong when running the boost pump during the takeoff roll.
I have also heard of a crash where the pilot used the electric fuel pump, but I believe that’s on a big bite Continental engine, where the manual specifically said not to use both the mechanical and the electric pump on takeoff, as the pressure and flow is too much and cause flooding..
 
I have also heard of a crash where the pilot used the electric fuel pump, but I believe that’s on a big bite Continental engine, where the manual specifically said not to use both the mechanical and the electric pump on takeoff, as the pressure and flow is too much and cause flooding..
Continental engines use a fuel injection system with a very different design than what is used on a Lycoming, so as you have pointed out there operating procedures are not relevant to RV’s ( except for RV-10, N220RV, which does have a Continental engine)
 

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I have also heard of a crash where the pilot used the electric fuel pump, but I believe that’s on a big bite Continental engine, where the manual specifically said not to use both the mechanical and the electric pump on takeoff, as the pressure and flow is too much and cause flooding..
Yes, I recall this, now that you mention it. A little knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing!
 
Continental engines use a fuel injection system with a very different design than what is used on a Lycoming, so as you have pointed out there operating procedures are not relevant to RV’s ( except for RV-10, N220RV, which does have a Continental engine)

Yup. Here is a relatively recent one, Bonanza with a Continental IO-520-BA:

From the NTSB Final Report:
"Probable Cause and Findings
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
The pilot’s activation of the auxiliary fuel boost pump shortly after takeoff, which resulted in an excess amount of fuel to the engine and a total loss of engine power."
 
Continental engines use a fuel injection system with a very different design than what is used on a Lycoming, so as you have pointed out there operating procedures are not relevant to RV’s ( except for RV-10, N220RV, which does have a Continental engine)
Continental use a gear driven mechanical fuel pump, as opposed to Lycoming diaphragm style pump. The gear driven pumps (think like an oil pump) are more reliable and don’t typically need the electric backup unless there’s a failure, which I hear are rare. (There are times at high altitude where the manufacturer may recommend low boost for vapor suppression.)

Titan used to sell a fuel injection setup for Lycoming clone engines that was positive displacement like the Continental style, so you shouldn’t say that ALL Lycoming engines use a boost pump for takeoff.. you should know your systems and understand what you have.
 
There is always value in limiting configuration changes close to starting the take-off roll but in this instance it is adding the operation of an additional fuel pump… not likely to cause an unintended issue, and in my opinion, individually confirming the operation of both fuel pumps being able to provide sufficient fuel flow on their own is far more important.
I.e., one of the purposes of the run up is test equipment for proper operation vs just configure it for takeoff.

My run up procedure is to bring the engine up to run up power with the boost pump off, then once stabilized for a few seconds I turn on the boost pump and it remains on for the remainder of the run up through the takeoff. I also verify the fuel pressures before and after turning on the boost pump.

With that said, my CS IO-360 only flows ~ 5 GPH during run up which is much lower than takeoff fuel flow, so the overall value of "testing" the mechanical pump by leaving the boost pump off during at least a portion of the run up is pretty limited.

Skylor
 
Continental use a gear driven mechanical fuel pump, as opposed to Lycoming diaphragm style pump. The gear driven pumps (think like an oil pump) are more reliable and don’t typically need the electric backup unless there’s a failure, which I hear are rare. (There are times at high altitude where the manufacturer may recommend low boost for vapor suppression.)

Titan used to sell a fuel injection setup for Lycoming clone engines that was positive displacement like the Continental style, so you shouldn’t say that ALL Lycoming engines use a boost pump for takeoff.. you should know your systems and understand what you have.
I think I was still correct because Titan is from Superior…. Correct? 😉
 
My run up procedure is to bring the engine up to run up power with the boost pump off, then once stabilized for a few seconds I turn on the boost pump and it remains on for the remainder of the run up through the takeoff. I also verify the fuel pressures before and after turning on the boost pump.

With that said, my CS IO-360 only flows ~ 5 GPH during run up which is much lower than takeoff fuel flow, so the overall value of "testing" the mechanical pump by leaving the boost pump off during at least a portion of the run up is pretty limited.

Skylor
I agree it does not test the worst case condition but it is better than not testing it at all.
 
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I see the value in testing without the boost pump on. Is there not value in leaving the configuration you had during the runup the same as during the takeoff? Since I'm going to take off with the boost pump on, I like to do the runup with the boost pump on. I've tested the mechanical during taxi, although that's certainly not full power. I wonder if testing boost both on and off during the runup would be best?
Maybe the best method would be to taxi with the boost pump off and not turn it on until somewhere in the runup, perhaps after the mag check and before the carb heat/switching tanks etc then turn it on and leave it on. That way you have part of the runup with just the engine pump and part of it with both. 🤷‍♂️I would not depart using just the engine pump. :oops:
 
How do you see the light if it's under your thumb? With the light that far out of your normal field of view, can it effectively operate as a reminder that it's on? It seems that a light on the panel would be much more effective.
Busy weekend, apologies for the late response. Yes the light is out of my normal field of view but not a real problem. I may not have stated in my original post that the button is depressed when "on" and sticks out when "off", so tactilly it is very easy to know if it is on or off without looking. For me, this really works well as it has just become procedural to feel for it during critical phases of flight when the Mark Is might be busy on other things. When I positively absolutely must confirm, I can glance down for the light. It's not so much for a reminder as an integrated cockpit flow thing. I mean no disrespect when I say that I am uncertain how a panel light indicating the pump is on or off will remind someone to turn the pump on when required. As with the throttle button, it's still passive. I think the only way we could foolproof this kind of thing is contextual. For example, the G3 detects you are entering the runway and checks that the pump is on, flashing a message and a tone indicating action necessary if it is not. I can think of a few parameters that would work for this, I don't even know if Garmin and Dynon support these kinds of functions, but my panel isn't there yet.
 
Maybe the best method would be to taxi with the boost pump off and not turn it on until somewhere in the runup, perhaps after the mag check and before the carb heat/switching tanks etc then turn it on and leave it on. That way you have part of the runup with just the engine pump and part of it with both. 🤷‍♂️I would not depart using just the engine pump. :oops:
My standard op is to select the tank I will use for take-off, before starting, and then not switch tanks again until after take-off. This lets me affirm the tank will run the engine for an extended period with no problem (like passing some un-sumped water or a problem from a flow restriction), since that tank was used for all taxi and the run-up.
I usually make my first tank switch after 30 minutes which is a short enough time that if there is a flow issue with the second tank, I have enough fuel in teh one used for tak-off to return to the departure point.
 
Yes the light is out of my normal field of view but not a real problem. I mean no disrespect when I say that I am uncertain how a panel light indicating the pump is on or off will remind someone to turn the pump on when required. ........
No offense taken. HOWEVER: I have warning lights on my panel: three half-inch lights (and two small LED's bottom right corner to tell me if the landing and/or taxi lights are lit). The BIG ones (read: difficult to ignore!) are: top: a RED light for the canopy being open or not properly latched; :oops: middle: an ORANGE one that tells me when the fuel pump is on; bottom: a RED on that tells me if the alternator is off line. Since I am constantly monitoring what my engine is doing, looking at oil temp and pressure, manifold pressure and CHT/EGT temps, it is RIGHT THERE to be noticed. My GOOD ENGINE call-out when I am departing makes me look at that light. Can't miss it! When I mostly notice it is after departure, getting up to cruise and, oh heck: the pump is still on! Click..... ;)

Slowing for descent: I will notice if it is on or off. It is part of my check list, of course, but hit that point in the descent check off, look up at the light as my hand moves to the pump switch......Click....ORANGE......;) Mind/muscle memory with a little....er.....BIG orange light to help me not forget......
 

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I'm totally unclear what happened here.

There is a TON of discussion on this thread on everything from helmets to checklists, but next to nothing I could find about why the issue occurred in the first place.

Simply running a tank dry is not a reason for a problem.

Back when I was flying AA5's running a tank dry was a regular occurrence, in fact its part of the standard fuel management practices. Start on the left 30, right 30, left 30, right 30, burn left dry, I know I've got 45 minutes (or whatever it took) in the right side. Did it a million times and never an issue. I rarely fly the 8 as close to its max range as I did the AA5, but I'm pretty sure I've run a tank dry a couple times without issue (once as #2 in a 4-ship, in echelon, right as lead gave the pitch out, arriving for a formation clinic and witnessed by dozens of people on this forum lol, yeah I got a call sign out of that).

As soon as you've switched to a tank with fuel in it and kicked on the boost pump (assuming it wasn't already on which it should have been in the pattern) that engine should be running again in a second or two. I get the PIC was faffing around a bit, but that still should result in just a couple seconds.

Why did the engine not relight?
 
Simply running a tank dry is not a reason for a problem.

Back when I was flying AA5's running a tank dry was a regular occurrence, in fact its part of the standard fuel management practices. Start on the left 30, right 30, left 30, right 30, burn left dry, I know I've got 45 minutes (or whatever it took) in the right side. Did it a million times and never an issue. I rarely fly the 8 as close to its max range as I did the AA5, but I'm pretty sure I've run a tank dry a couple times without issue (once as #2 in a 4-ship, in echelon, right as lead gave the pitch out, arriving for a formation clinic and witnessed by dozens of people on this forum lol, yeah I got a call sign out of that).

As soon as you've switched to a tank with fuel in it and kicked on the boost pump (assuming it wasn't already on which it should have been in the pattern) that engine should be running again in a second or two. I get the PIC was faffing around a bit, but that still should result in just a couple seconds.

Why did the engine not relight?
Not saying this was the OP's issue, but a warning from Airflow Performance:

Something else to consider if a tank is run dry or unported. Excerpt from the Airflow Performance Auxiliary Pump document:

i-JLK8nmz-M.jpg
 
Not saying this was the OP's issue, but a warning from Airflow Performance:

Something else to consider if a tank is run dry or unported. Excerpt from the Airflow Performance Auxiliary Pump document:

i-JLK8nmz-M.jpg
wow, had not seen that before.

its not been a problem for me, but that seems like quite an issue as tanks get run dry all the time.
 
wow, had not seen that before.

its not been a problem for me, but that seems like quite an issue as tanks get run dry all the time.
If you have the AFP purge valve, a full return system, and have the presence of mind to open the return valve, then you can probably get the pump re-primed if it's run dry. I personally just choose to not run a tank dry, since I'm not much of a risk-taker.
 
If you have the AFP purge valve, a full return system, and have the presence of mind to open the return valve, then you can probably get the pump re-primed if it's run dry. I personally just choose to not run a tank dry, since I'm not much of a risk-taker.
I occasionally think I should have fuel injection on SuzieQ, then read threads like this and think how thankful I am to have a piece of equipment on my airplane that has been around since back when fuel first hit a cylinder! 😆

I'm not one to run tanks dry, either. For several reasons: regardless of how much I KNOW it is about to run out and the engine is going to not like it, I'm still bold-upright startled every time! Especially bad if it is close to a fuel/pee stop! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Works much quicker to make my heart jump than a defibrillating pace maker ever could!!:oops::oops:
 
I rarely fly the 8 as close to its max range as I did the AA5, but I'm pretty sure I've run a tank dry a couple times without issue (once as #2 in a 4-ship, in echelon, right as lead gave the pitch out, arriving for a formation clinic and witnessed by dozens of people on this forum lol, yeah I got a call sign out of that).
Love your new call sign!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
As everyone has said before, thank you for posting this. I am building an RV14 and this helps immensely. I am looking at my boost pump switch placement as well as other switches now. Here are a couple of takeaways for me:
-For me, a low altitude engine failure in the traffic pattern necessitates an immediate turn to the runway. At this point all other things (ie switches, boost pumps etc) are secondary to flying the airplane and frankly, I don't think I would be able to do anything else but fly the aircraft. Looking at MSO, a low altitude 180 degree engine out turn started abeam the intersection of 8 and 30 would put me on rwy 30 with 1000 to 2000 feet remaining. A low speed excursion off the end of rwy 30 would be an acceptable outcome. An overshooting final turn with a landing on taxiway alpha would be acceptable as well. A controlled landing on the infield between rwy30 and taxiway A would be acceptable also.
-At high altitude airports, your true airspeed is likely to be higher, meaning you will be carrying much more energy than you might realize. This means turn radius and flight geometry might be different. Not as much a factor for home grown pilots but possibly for x-country pilots it might be something to think about.
-Initial flights with a helmet and fireproof flight suit and gloves are something I am going to think about.
-I have never been good at chair flying, but sitting in the cockpit I built and doing blind switch position and emergency procedure exercises until they are rote memory seems like a good idea.
-I will know the amount of fuel I have in each tank for every flight. This will be verified during phase 1 flight testing by sticking the tanks.
-First radio call after the engine failure is "Call sign, emergency, engine failure". Not sure I would be able to get anything else out on the radio.
-Flight test traffic patterns will be done at an altitude/airspeed so that an engine failure anywhere in the pattern will result in a safe landing.

Once again thanks for posting this. I feel my blood pressure go up as I read this. Like others have said, I also have done some bonehead things that I was lucky enough to survive. I plan to not do bonehead things and fly in a manner that gives me options in case my boneheadedness shows up again!
 
-For me, a low altitude engine failure in the traffic pattern necessitates an immediate turn to the runway.
Depends on where you are in the pattern. The Impossible Turn has been studied and extensively discussed in this forum. As I leave the runway, 'land straight ahead; land straight ahead' is the phrase that is going through my head and I am looking at the selection of places I could realistically get to. Straight ahead is many times the best option as things can get quiet on that initial climb out.

-I have never been good at chair flying, but sitting in the cockpit I built and doing blind switch position and emergency procedure exercises until they are rote memory seems like a good idea.
Not just memorizing where things are but getting used to being in a brand-new front office. Your first flight should be a repeat of all the times you have sat in the cockpit getting used to what this office feels like. Fewer things to think about when you are in a familiar place.
-First radio call after the engine failure is "Call sign, emergency, engine failure". Not sure I would be able to get anything else out on the radio..
Should be far down the list of 'things I need to do'. There are other activities that are way more important than talking to someone who will have no hand in getting you back on the ground.
 
Thanks for sharing your story. It creates an opportunity to discuss boost pump usage.

SOP for me is that the boost pump is on in at least the following situations:

1) Takeoff to substantially higher than pattern altitude, on-course, and out of the airport environment.
2) Any time I'm below 2,000'.
3) Inbound for landing, my practice is to turn it on when I make my first radio call to the field. Probably 5-10 miles out and several thousand feet AGL.
4) Whenever I'm switching tanks.

I figure the boost pump is one of the longest lasting mechanisms in the airplane. It is doubtful that I'll wear one out from over-use, considering they operate continuously in the automotive world and last for decades in that application.
Kyle... appreciate your comment on boost pump longevity. I actually did have to replace mine in the RV9A a while back. It was not difficult. But I kind of hesitated to let it run a long time. Did not know the automotive situation. Now, I am inclined to let it rip for much longer. I like the 1500 AGL rule of thumb mentioned here. My switches make for a simple rule on departure and arrival. All toggles UP. That puts all the lights, boost etc. on. Why not? Can be done blindfolded. Cheers and have a good week.
 
Depends on where you are in the pattern. The Impossible Turn has been studied and extensively discussed in this forum. As I leave the runway, 'land straight ahead; land straight ahead' is the phrase that is going through my head and I am looking at the selection of places I could realistically get to. Straight ahead is many times the best option as things can get quiet on that initial climb out.


Not just memorizing where things are but getting used to being in a brand-new front office. Your first flight should be a repeat of all the times you have sat in the cockpit getting used to what this office feels like. Fewer things to think about when you are in a familiar place.

Should be far down the list of 'things I need to do'. There are other activities that are way more important than talking to someone who will have no hand in getting you back on the ground.
Yup. All good points. Your comments are mostly self evident and I omitted them for space and time constraints. Thanks for the input, it makes me thing more thoroughly about what I am doing.
 
Maybe your AOA is different from mine, where a solid tone means I’m at stall speed. A pulsating tone indicates I’m approaching stall.
Hmm, You are correct. As I said...work in progress. Some "unlearning from my A-10 days where the tones went from solid to chopped as you approached stall AOA. I will change it.
 
I think I was still correct because Titan is from Superior…. Correct? 😉
Continental Titan and Superior Air Parts are completely different companies. The product lines are similar, Continental makes genuine Continental parts and some PMA aftermarket parts for Lycoming(R) engines. Superior sells some PMA parts for Lycoming(R) and Continental engines.
 
I just checked out your youtube vid. on a practice panel.

I love this idea! I've been flying my homebuilt 8 years and recently had my first real inflight emergency. Like you, I thought I was prepared. I was not. I missed the most critical, bold face, item.

What I discovered was even though I thought I knew what to do (I have been flying for 30 years), I was not really prepared me for the real thing. Also, all of my planning assumed I was at altitude with time to run a checklist. In this case I was down low, with no time to review.

I am going to do a mockup like this to practice at home.

Thanks for sharing your story.
 
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