VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #1  
Old 06-15-2022, 05:17 PM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,258
Default Alternative Engines?

With Lycoming and other current aftermarket players seemingly unable to supply engine parts or engines in a timely fashion any more, it would appear to be a good time for someone new to step into the clone market or offer new engines/ parts for Experimentals.

Prices of a Lyc 540 is now in the $60K range which might open the doors to some competition I'd think

Does this take the shape of another Lyc clone, something like the Adept V6s or a professionally developed and tested automotive based engine?

I've contacted Adept a few times and they were very forthcoming with info in 2020 which I used in a YT video. A couple subsequent attempts were met with promises but so far not much new info other than they are fitting their engine to a Velocity in the US.

Would/ is Rotax planning to go upmarket with something like their canceled V300?

I talked to an experienced player designing a new aero CI engine in Europe in this hp range recently so perhaps others are starting to see that the time is right to potentially take some market share here.

Aeromomentum is apparently offering a Hyundai based FWF package which may fit RV-10s. Not aware of any flying yet though.

Or, will Lycoming step up and double production somehow to meet demand?

Thoughts or info welcome.
__________________

Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 457.6 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 06-16-2022 at 09:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-15-2022, 07:24 PM
VA Maule VA Maule is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Bucking ham, Virginia
Posts: 289
Default Here’s mine

Now granted it’s a long ways off the standard Vans reservation, but I’ve got the FWF working well for the Rotec 3600.
Just started taxi testing last week , so far all’s well
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	5C3330BF-A200-4C07-8C8E-941908405AFE.png
Views:	206
Size:	367.8 KB
ID:	27100  
__________________
Maule MXT-7(daily flyer)
Lancer 235(partner)
Raidial RV-8R Ephanage Done, Wings Done, Fuselage on it's tall Grove gear & engine hung
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-16-2022, 05:04 AM
David Z David Z is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
Posts: 933
Default

UL Power is making great headway, and spending dollars on marketing too. If they made a FWF kit with all the goodies that Van's offers (or better), I bet they'd sell lots. The reputation of alternative engines is a ton of fabrication, delays, cost overruns. If UL Power can promise none of that will happen, I'd bet they'll take a chunk of sales from Lycoming/Ly-clones.

Only problem with them is the 3300rpm needed for max power. Not many props can spin that fast. Limit it to 2800 or 2900, and still most of the power is available, so not a deal breaker. They do have some prop connection too.
__________________
RV8
Empennage Passed Pre-close Inspection
Wings mostly done
Fuselage assembly, it's a riveting job!
83126
Dash 8 day job is financing the RV8
Donation till September 2022
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-16-2022, 05:19 AM
chopperchops chopperchops is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 67
Cool UL Power 520T

The UL Power 520T (220hp turbocharged 6 cylinder) redlines at 2,700 RPM.
I am putting this in my RV-8, in fact the engine has just rolled of the production line and should be in Oz in a few weeks.
Ray Lawrence at UL Power USA has a fwd kit for the RV-7 I believe, and is working on the RV-8 cowl and engine mount.
Air master Props in New Zealand also do a lineup of props that marry up nicely with the UL Power range as well.
I had my engine mount made locally, engine on its way, prop from across the ditch, and cowl from the US…it’s getting there!
__________________
Rob Chopin
QB RV-8
Wings done, fuse and wiring in progress.
Queensland Australia
VAF Dues 2022 paid-worth every penny!!!
http://www.mykitlog.com/ch0pperch0ps
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-16-2022, 06:56 AM
plehrke's Avatar
plehrke plehrke is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Defiance, MO
Posts: 1,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
With Lycoming and other current aftermarket players seemingly unable to supply engine parts or engines in a timely fashion any more, it would appear to be a good time for someone new to step into the clone market or offer new engines/ parts for Experimentals.

Prices of a Lyc 540 is now in the $60K range which might open the doors . . . . .
Why has Continental not been a player in the RV world?

Would Lycoming ever look into what business case would warrant putting a brand new design in development? Maybe due to push for electric development a new internal combustion engine does not have the product legs to invest in.
__________________
Philip
RV-6A - flying 1000+ hours
Paid dues yearly since 2007

There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. —MARK TWAIN
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-16-2022, 07:30 AM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plehrke View Post
Why has Continental not been a player in the RV world?

Would Lycoming ever look into what business case would warrant putting a brand new design in development? Maybe due to push for electric development a new internal combustion engine does not have the product legs to invest in.
I assume because RVs are designed around Lycomings but all it would take is for Conti to buy an RV-10 and engineer the mount and installation of a 550 and do the flight testing. Of course they already made/make Lycoming clones in the Titan X540. What is their timeline on supplying 540 clones or 550s these days?

I notice the X540 is no longer listed on their website. Are they still producing it?

As far as the UL goes, it doesn't produce enough power for the the RV-10. Maybe they'd consider a larger displacement six?
__________________

Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 457.6 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-16-2022, 08:25 AM
Carl Froehlich's Avatar
Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
Posts: 3,740
Default

As a dreamer, I always wanted a better engine. The Lycoming does quite well for our applications, but fuel requirements are the Achilles Heal.

What I would like to see:
- A two stroke diesel. Two stroke to keep the weight down and to reduce power pulses on the prop. For the RV-10 a six cylinder in the 250-280 hp range. Ok with Jet A.
- Direct drive. I suspect there are reduction schemes out there that work and are reliable, but I’ve never seen one that passes my muster.
- Turbo/super charged to keep HP up at altitude.

20 years ago Delta Hawk was the shiny bobble for this engine but it never came to market (I still have the Delta Hawk T shirt from Oshkosh 1999). Over those years projected delivery dates have ranged from 2001 to next fall. I also suspect that if a model ever does ship, it will be grossly overpriced (got to pay all those Angel Investors somehow….).

Carl
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-16-2022, 08:38 AM
Ironflight's Avatar
Ironflight Ironflight is offline
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 13,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I assume because RVs are designed around Lycomings but all it would take is for Conti to buy an RV-10 and engineer the mount and installation of a 550 and do the flight testing. Of course they already made/make Lycoming clones in the Titan X540. What is their timeline on supplying 540 clones or 550s these days?

I notice the X540 is no longer listed on their website. Are they still producing it?

As far as the UL goes, it doesn't produce enough power for the the RV-10. Maybe they'd consider a larger displacement six?
For a gouge on what is currently available, might be available, or used to be available, folks can start their research with Tom Wilson’s deep dive into the market in the Kitplanes Engine Buyer’s Guide:

https://www.kitplanes.com/2022-engine-buyers-guide/

This will give you some insight into the current players in the market, but doesn’t really help with the question “why don’t we have…..?” I think that to answer that, you really have to understand economics more than engineering. Coming up with a new engine from a blank sheet of paper is horribly expensive, and the market is truly very tiny. Established companies understand that. New companies find it out the hard way.

As for this pilot, I am happy flying behind (or ahead of) anything that produces thrust in quantities required for flight - I have flown power plants originally designed for airplanes, cars, boats, and motorcycles (hey, that electric Zero motorcycle power system is pretty cool!). As a builder, I enjoy tinkering, but not as much as flying - and as an owner, I want something that works whenever I want it to, and isn’t going to surprise me with a major issue that costs lots of money to keep flying.

One of the advantages of my job is that I get to fly a wide variety of power systems for an hour each, and the odds that they will keep running for that hour are very good….and they don’t cost me (the visitor) anything to fly or maintain. But……ownership is something that requires deeper research to avoid surprises.

Technology advances are never cheap - but I admire those willing to take the plunge!
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-16-2022, 08:57 AM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,258
Default

My criteria for a 540 alternative would be near equal or better weight, fuel burn, power and maintenance hours per flight hour and of course better availability than 2 years and price in the same ballpark or lower in an ideal world.

Jabiru proved you could build a billet engine in small quantities to be price competitive with legacy aero engine designs. The first few gens were not really good designs but it wouldn't cost more to do it right using the same sort of recipe.
__________________

Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 457.6 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-16-2022, 09:08 AM
echozulu echozulu is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Ocean City, MD
Posts: 106
Default

In 2020 Titan told me the X540 is discontinued for the foreseeable future. Not enough demand to justify the resources I think and they were focusing on their smaller engines. Maybe once supply returns to pre-pandemic levels they will have enough spare parts and manpower to start making them again.
__________________
RV-10 - Empennage 95%
QB Fuse - Working
QB Wings - Delivered
San Diego, CA

www.wheelswelded.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:08 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.