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  #1  
Old 11-14-2022, 09:14 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
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Default Hartzell Information Manual for Experimental Aircraft

Hartzell has released a document dedicated to propeller vibration compatibility. Apparently it is new, with a cover notation of "Original September 2022".

It lists all the currently approved hub/blade/engine combinations, with restrictions when applicable. Listings include guidance for Continental/Titan and Superior, as well as a few electronic ignitions.

All in all, a convenient and valuable resource for builders who wish to fly behind approved combinations only, and within restrictions.

https://hartzellprop.com/information...ft-manual-193/
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  #2  
Old 11-14-2022, 09:24 AM
Freemasm Freemasm is offline
 
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Location: Orlando
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Default Not Hartzell's job, but

Great info. Sure would be nice to have this in .csv or similar format. The resulting searchability would be great since most settle on a PP before a prop. "Cntl F" has it's limits.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2022, 10:01 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Location: LSGY
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Default

Thanks Dan.

One challenge is that many people run electronic ignitions, and it would be great to understand their impact on the prop beyond what Hartzell has published:

Quote:
Electronic Ignition Compatibility

The combinations listed in Tables 1 and 2 in the Vibration Compatibility Tables chapter of this manual are considered acceptable only with the ignition systems noted. Hartzell is actively testing to investigate the effect that electronic ignition systems have on propeller vibration. Preliminary data has shown that electronic ignition systems can produce increased vibrational loads for the propeller. The specific effects of adding electronic ignition can vary depending on the exact propeller/engine/ignition system combination.

Electronic ignition systems operating at fixed timing also have the capability to increase propeller stresses. At this time, Hartzell can only endorse use with the exact ignition systems listed, in conjunction with the exact propeller/engine combination listed.

Electronic ignition systems in Tables 1 and 2 in the Vibration Compatibility Tables chapter of this manual have been verified to be compatible when tested using the manufacturer's instructions, setup procedures, and preset timing profiles. Changing the timing profile from the manufacturer's settings or other modifications to the setup can change the propeller vibratory loads and is therefore not covered by the compatibility finding.

Use of engines with unverified electronic ignition systems is done at your own risk.

A lot of us fall in the category of "at your own risk" due to running EI, and it seems like Hartzell could do some testing of a few EIs to see if there is an issue. I fully get that this testing is hard and expensive.
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2022, 10:14 AM
MJarreau MJarreau is offline
 
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Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
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Default Better Searching Available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freemasm View Post
"Cntl F" has it's limits.
Scott,

Try an advanced search. I use FoxitReader and it has a decent search function I've used quite successfully.

Thanks, Dan!

Cheers,
Mike
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2022, 10:32 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8ch View Post
One challenge is that many people run electronic ignitions, and it would be great to understand their impact on the prop beyond what Hartzell has published.
I suspect we need only be patient. I have no inside info, but I do note they called this document "Volume 1"
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  #6  
Old 11-14-2022, 01:29 PM
Freemasm Freemasm is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8ch View Post
Thanks Dan.

One challenge is that many people run electronic ignitions, and it would be great to understand their impact on the prop beyond what Hartzell has published:




A lot of us fall in the category of "at your own risk" due to running EI, and it seems like Hartzell could do some testing of a few EIs to see if there is an issue. I fully get that this testing is hard and expensive.
Does EI really have anything to do with the application? I would assume that is a "catch-all" for any timing that isn't fixed I.A.W. the engine data plate. If I'm missing something or oversimplifying, someone here will let me knmow.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2022, 05:14 PM
TParker TParker is offline
 
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Location: OH
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freemasm View Post
... since most settle on a PP before a prop.
Part of our hope and goal with Manual 193 is that people will start to consider the propeller as part of the powerplant, because decisions about engine configuration will impact propeller options, safety, and/or operating restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8ch View Post
Thanks Dan.

One challenge is that many people run electronic ignitions, and it would be great to understand their impact on the prop beyond what Hartzell has published:

A lot of us fall in the category of "at your own risk" due to running EI, and it seems like Hartzell could do some testing of a few EIs to see if there is an issue. I fully get that this testing is hard and expensive.
While I understand the frustration, what has been published in the manual either in the text or the combination tables is what can be confidently stated based on the testing conducted so far. Combinations of specific propellers, engines, and electronic ignition systems that we have determined to be compatible are listed in the tables. We have been testing EI systems, testing is still ongoing, and more information will be published when it can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
I suspect we need only be patient. I have no inside info, but I do note they called this document "Volume 1"
We appreciate patience; we're actively working on this but it will take more time. Subsequent volumes will cover other topics, though part of Volume 2 will discuss some further background on engine/propeller compatibility. Additional information on compatible combinations, including information for electronic ignition systems, will be added to Volume 1 via revision as the information becomes available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freemasm View Post
Does EI really have anything to do with the application? I would assume that is a "catch-all" for any timing that isn't fixed I.A.W. the engine data plate. If I'm missing something or oversimplifying, someone here will let me knmow.
Yes, EI can matter to the application, as noted "Preliminary data has shown that electronic ignition systems can produce increased vibrational loads for the propeller" and "Electronic ignition systems operating at fixed timing also have the capability to increase propeller stresses.". The catch all here is not for things that are not fixed IAW the dataplate, it's for any configuration detail that falls outside the published details for the compatible combination; whether that's a change in ignition, compression ratio, or any of the other details discussed in Manual 193.
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Opinions, information, and comments are my own except as noted. Guidance provided here may or may not be applicable to your specific installation.
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  #8  
Old 12-02-2022, 02:10 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TParker View Post
Part of our hope and goal with Manual 193 is that people will start to consider the propeller as part of the powerplant, because decisions about engine configuration will impact propeller options, safety, and/or operating restrictions.



While I understand the frustration, what has been published in the manual either in the text or the combination tables is what can be confidently stated based on the testing conducted so far. Combinations of specific propellers, engines, and electronic ignition systems that we have determined to be compatible are listed in the tables. We have been testing EI systems, testing is still ongoing, and more information will be published when it can be.



We appreciate patience; we're actively working on this but it will take more time. Subsequent volumes will cover other topics, though part of Volume 2 will discuss some further background on engine/propeller compatibility. Additional information on compatible combinations, including information for electronic ignition systems, will be added to Volume 1 via revision as the information becomes available.


Yes, EI can matter to the application, as noted "Preliminary data has shown that electronic ignition systems can produce increased vibrational loads for the propeller" and "Electronic ignition systems operating at fixed timing also have the capability to increase propeller stresses.". The catch all here is not for things that are not fixed IAW the dataplate, it's for any configuration detail that falls outside the published details for the compatible combination; whether that's a change in ignition, compression ratio, or any of the other details discussed in Manual 193.
Hi Trevor, thanks very much for your responses. I think those of us that have been in aviation for more than about 5 minutes understand that this topic is a real minefield, and that any statements you make can be used in ways that they were not intended. Best of luck with the testing, and please keep us posted on any progress.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2022, 09:44 AM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Default

I am not able to see anything in the table and I do have Adobe. Am I missing anything or they changed the file to include nothing?

Edit: please disregard as I was not clicking the "volume 1"
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