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RV-10 Panel Design

RV10ITIS

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I've been working on a panel design for my RV-10. After many hours of planning and research and some great help from the masters at Stein Air, I have confirmed the layout and I am thrilled with it! Any suggestions or comments before going into production are welcome.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RqZC-llSKVcOhCtSJ5VKFKS0KXzJ9m9D/view?usp=sharing
view
 
Well…..
I wish the gps navigator was higher. You’ll spend head-down time setting up approaches. Depending on PFD annunciations it might even be out of TSO compliance.
Same for the autopilot controller.
 
Nah...

I have the symmetrical panel, so I do not have the real estate for the 750...but my 650 is in that location. Setting up approaches is a non issue. My autopilot head is mounted above the 650, and it works great; I do not think you will have any issues where you have it located.

Sweet panel...I wish the 310 panel had been available when I did mine!

My only question is why you would add an external AOA indicator to the glare shield when it is readily available on the PFD...
 
Love the panel. You will too. It doesn't look like you missed any of the bells and whistles.

My only comment is to rethink the layout and sequence of the switches on the pilot side. (which I am sure you have done numerous times) In flight you are going to be using the cowl flaps switch. I don't like it being that close to the AVI Master switch (assuming it is avionics master). You may inadvertently it the AVI master when you want to engage the cowl flaps. The CoStick and AP switches will rarely be used. Maybe, from left to right, AMBat, AVIMaster, AP, CoStick, CowlFlaps, Pitot, FuelPump. This separates the switches used on/after engine start from the inflight switches.
 
I've been working on a panel design for my RV-10. After many hours of planning and research and some great help from the masters at Stein Air, I have confirmed the layout and I am thrilled with it! Any suggestions or comments before going into production are welcome.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RqZC-llSKVcOhCtSJ5VKFKS0KXzJ9m9D/view?usp=sharing
view

Looks great. I'd delete the "start" button on the stick--especially if you don't have a switch on the panel that deactivates all but the PTT on the co-pilot side (which would be my preference even without a start button). Depending on which buttons are where, that could leave room for a flap toggle on the stick. Some like them there, others don't. If putting flaps on the stick, I'd recommend a toggle that is spring-loaded to off from both directions. Otherwise, it's too easy to inadvertently activate the flap motor without noticing.
 
I would change the 750 to a 650 and put the AP panel above it. I use that panel a lot on X-C flights, especially IFR flights. With 3 PFD/MFD screens, not sure what you would be looking at on the GPS and therefore not a lot of value in a large screen. Other than tuning a freq or setting up an approach, I never look at my 430 and have never wished it was a larger screen.
 
Personally, I don't understand the fascination with 3 screens and aerosport type panels. From a functional perspective having 2 screens and the 750 in a flat metal panel allows everything to move toward the middle and up, I always strive to keep the PFD/MFD as high in the panel as possible for the best viewing angle and the 750 in the best position from a user standpoint. Lots of other advantages to this as well but those are the main ones
 
You do have all the bells and whistles. Some thoughts (it is your panel so take them with a grain of salt):
- I consider the larger display on the 750 wasted as you will not use it over the EFIS displays. Here is opportunity to save a few dollars - replace it with a GTN-650 (or GNC-355 and add a remote NAV receiver) and move to the highest point on the center of the panel. The value of the screen on the 650 or 750 is secondary to the need input all the “modification to your flight plan” stuff coming from ATC. Having the TSO navigator down that low will make this a real PITA.
- To do the above, recommend deleting the center G3X display. It gains almost nothing over two displays (very easy flying IFR on the right display from the left seat) and the space is needed for moving stuff you do need. After you find the new home for the TSO navigator up high in the center you will have space to move your G5 to the center as well.
- Remove the engine start from the stick. Do add flaps to the stick. Here you can keep the panel mounted flap switch as well.
- Add a “Pilot/Co-Pilot) trim/flap control switch on the panel to select which stick is in control (in other words prevent the co-pilot from doing something stupid). I use a simple DPDT locking toggle switch in the center of the panel - it connects or disconnects the common ground to the stick switches for trim and flaps
- The AOA indication is, at least for me, of very limited value as the AOA audio feed is the primary AOA indication. Here is opportunity to clean up the top of the glare shield.
- Your EFIS system has the Hobbs and Tach function, no need to add the old school Hobbs meter.
- Personally I don’t care for quadrant engine controls in an RV-10, or the associated center console. I do like vernier push/pull for mixture and prop, but not throttle. I suspect the center console will also make Condition Inspections that much harder - but perhaps you can design around that.

Carl
 
I will provide some of my opinions that are opposite some of those above. One of the great things about this forum is you get lots of opinions, and quite often they are polar opposites. Remember, it is your panel and do it the way you want it, and what works for you and your mission.

I find that an efis screen on the co-pilot side is useless to the pilot in the left seat. Having the efis in front of the pilot and the second screen in the center ideal. The only reason for the third screen is if you frequently fly with a second pilot in the right seat. Then they would have the flight instruments directly in front of them. But that third screen is still a luxury, it is not difficult flying from the efis in the center position.

Buy the largest screen IFR navigator your pocket book can afford. I installed an IFD440 and I wish I had worked out a way to get a larger navigator incorporated into my panel. You will use the navigator primarily for managing the flight plan, but the extra screen real estate is well worth it.

I did not see circuit breakers for the two alternators. I am not sure how you are managing the field circuit from the regulator.

I have IDENT on my stick and it is used frequently.

I don't like having flaps or start on the stick. I feel they would be too easy to press accidently. The flap switch should be near the power controls. On take off and landing one hand is going to be on the stick and one hand on the throttle. You will want to be able to manage the flaps with little hand movement. With my push pull controls on the panel, the flap switch is in between the throttle and prop control, with minimal hand movement I can move the flaps.. With your throttle quadrant down on the tunnel, it is a longer movement to the flaps. Not sure what would be best in your case. Just food for thought.
 
Auto pilot controller position

Since you asked for comments, the auto pilot controller should be as high on the panel as you can get it, right below glare shield at eye level especially if you plan on flying in actual instrument conditions. In actual IMC looking down that low could cause spatial disorientation

There’s a solid reason why almost every manufacturer puts it up there.

D8846933-3ACE-4E48-8E53-A1ADB6BDCD11.jpg
 
I've been working on a panel design for my RV-10. After many hours of planning and research and some great help from the masters at Stein Air, I have confirmed the layout and I am thrilled with it! Any suggestions or comments before going into production are welcome.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RqZC-llSKVcOhCtSJ5VKFKS0KXzJ9m9D/view?usp=sharing
view

The typical utilitarian nay sayers are out...

Build what you want, want what you build...It is a beautiful panel and if you like it, that is all that really matters.
 
Any suggestions or comments before going into production are welcome.

The typical utilitarian nay sayers are out...

I'm pretty sure he asked for suggestions or comments, and he got some very good ones.... take em or leave em.

Or perhaps it's more polite to do what you did and just say it's beautiful build it like you want it bla bla bla

KISS still rules in my book, this aircraft is anything but.
 
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I'm pretty sure he asked for suggestions or comments, and he got some very good ones.... take em or leave em.

Or perhaps it's more polite to do what you did and just say it's beautiful build it like you want it bla bla bla

KISS still rules in my book, this aircraft is anything but.

Bla bla bla? Really?
 
In my experience (300+ hours G3X Touch), there's little if any advantage to using full screen windows -- the screen real estate on the side usually has no useful information.

My RV-9A has two big screens, each has the engine instrument stack on the outside, then flight instruments, and the inside half of each is usable for MFD functions. Radio stack in the middle with autopilot controller at the top.

If it were me on an RV-10, I'd ditch the center screen, allowing autopilot controller to be at the top, then 750 underneath -- vertical head movement in IFR is to be avoided. The two remaining big screens could be closer, so you could use the inside of the right screen as an MFD readable from the left seat.

Do the exercise of how you would use the screens at various stages of flight, which screens would be split and which full screen, etc. That should be a major guiding factor in how many and what screens you want. Presumably with this setup, you'd want flight instruments available on each side. What's nice is that the 750 essentially gives you another screen for many functions.

On switches, avoid long rows of switches -- you should be able to find a switch without having to read a bunch of labels. Standard position for flaps is on the right side of the center stack. Don't get button happy on the sticks -- things that belong there are those that are used frequently or in a hurry. Fuel pump and start do not qualify, radios probably not -- when you're tuning the radio on the touchscreen, it's easy enough to swap or to use the monitor function.

Add pushbutton on the panel for transponder ident. Rarely required but saves you a bunch of touchscreen pushes. If you look at your digital flight data, put a button for an Event recorder (using an uncommitted discrete).

Consider grouping engine switches next to the power knobs -- fuel pump, cowl flaps (do you really need them?), TO/GA fits in there too, not up on the panel away from everything else. If the flap switch is close, you've then got most of your pre-landing checklist items grouped.

If you're planning to fly IFR, going in and out of clouds means strobes off/pitot heat on and vice versa. Put the switches close.

Separate Alt Air and Parking Brake.

AOA above the panel does nothing but get in the way. I've done extensive research on AOA for GA, and ask yourself this -- why is it that all of the videos promoting AOA are shot on calm days on straight in approaches?

There's more, but the philosophy is think functionality, not bells and whistles.

Hope this helps!

Ed
 
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Pitot heat

Get the GAP26 Regulated Pitot tube.

Turn it ON after engine start.

Turn it OFF before engine shutdown.

Never have to worry about it.
 
When I bought my RV-8 it had the flaps and start on the stick. I couldn't understand that and was prepared to remove it as soon as practical. Came to find out I love both. Some like these. Some don't.

I hadn't realized how much safer a hot start can be accomplished with one hand on the stick with a start button and the other on the engine controls. I have a start button arming switch on the panel that is disarmed after start that kills the switch during flight. I also have a standard key start switch that can be used independently for backup or for the uninitiated pilot.

As far as flaps it is very nice on landing roll-out to flip up the switch on the stick without moving a busy hand to find a switch on the panel all the while tower is issuing instructions to turn off and call ground. I like to instantly start flap retraction as soon as the wheels touch while my eyes and hands don't move.
 
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Nice panel

Nice panel design overall. Well from a slightly different experience perspective of a lot of military and airline time and a little GA time here is my two cents:

- Ditto on these comments:
- Definitely move the Cowl flaps switch away from AVI Master. Human factors says you will get the wrong switch at some point. Swap the Cowl Flaps w/ the AP switch. Even consider a plastic bar between switches being used during T/O and Landing and administrative electrical. Or use different type of feel switches.

- The 750 is a great product albeit it's not the most cost effective (and Garmin knows this!). I prefer it over the 650 however since you have the center 10" screen it becomes a little overkill. The comment that it's to low, I disagree with. Yes you are a little more "heads down" but that's ok. I like that's it's slightly tilted up; that mitigates the fact that it is lower. In the airlines it's along side your inboard leg and much lower and horizontal so location is ok.

- Now the AP panel may be to low. Generally from a human factors point it's at the top of the panel above the center 10" however It' would get messy in your design. If you chose to take out the center and go w/ just the 750 higher or a 7" landscape, then put it above the 750 or just below it. That brings the discourse to the center 10"...

- Virtually all large transport two pilot aircraft have a PFD/ND display on two different screens usually horizontally orientated and sometimes vertically. But there's always two dedicated screens. That's what the 10" center does for you. The 10" left/right screens are your PFD's (Pilot/co-Pilot) and the 10" center becomes your ND. Great 2 pilot configuration panel you have there and "balanced" symmetrically. Virgo's will love it. So a three 10" panel setup is a bit overkill for single pilot but just right for a two pilot operation. The Pilot is not going to use the Right 10" panel because it "belongs to the Co-Pilot" and vice versa.

- The G5 "BACKUP HSI" should ALWAYS be in the center for a two pilot configuration. How is the Co-pilot going to use it in this configuration? Well Most of the time small A/C panels don't have enough panel real estate to put it in the center and it gets side lined to the Pilots left. That's a fair compromise. I see that a lot in panel design's. But you have designed a "Two Pilot" panel here. So leave it where it is unless you want to "shrink" the center 10" to a 7" and get some more real estate...

- Move the flap switch closer to the quadrant. Maybe swap it w/ your light switches or stack the light switches 2x2?

- Don't put a start switch on the stick. Bad "fen schway". You use it once during a flight. why is it where you can click the wrong switch?

- Do you have a Trim runaway disconnect or a dedicated CB (not VPX)? If not, put it in. Trim runaway will kill you.

- I haven't flown the aerosport panel down the center but those who have tell me it can get in the way space wise. Since you have virtually committed your design to a center console/quadrant configuration, this design is pretty dam good.
Thanks for posting, I'm taking notes!
Dave
 
Everyone's choice but you asked

First I am a 100% believer that choosing what one wants is what makes experimental aircraft builders "unique" so my thoughts only after flying almost 200 hours behind Garmin 750 and G3X.

I agree with the comments on the AOA. The G3X has an audible tone that when the AOA comes into play works fine. It also has a display on the screen that I infrequently look at. The audible is enough. I would not clutter up the wind screen.

I also have VPX and Aveo and you might want to have pulse of wig-wag controlled by the Aveo system and not the VPX. I had issues with the slight delay in the VPX system making the wig-wag, wig-wag appropriately. Also I don't see the wig-wag switch but might have missed it.

For my panel on the 10 I've added a Smart Glide button. I placed this where the flap switch normally goes on the panel (Same as yours) and flaps are on the stick. (2 axis control on top of the Infinity Aero grips which I love) I guess on the panel would be ok the grip by now seems very natural.

Since someone made the comment ident on the grip I like but on the G3X also ok.

OK, here is where it might become more controversial. I have start on the grip and panel. For a tail dragger (And to help with hot starts) I found this useful and to keep the sticks with the same set-up installed on the 14A (Yes A) and now on the 10. My choice, your choice. I do have a enable/disable switch on the panel that get's disabled immediately after engine start.

On the 14 the 750 is on top and the 10 will be the same both in the middle. I went with the 2 screen approach and believe that's enough. The autopilot is right below the 750. Again my thoughts only.

I think you are going to need a switch for the Mountain High O2 system. (Emergency on) It might be on their and I might have missed. (It's a complicated display)

Good luck and nice panel !!
 
3 more:

I added an extra switch as a spare and ended up using it before the airplane even flew, in case you forget something. Since the switches are labeled easy to change from "spare" to something needed. Speaking of switches if anyone knows how to keep the AML's from "blinking" let me know. I've tried bending the contacts, rubbing on a de-oxidizer, swearing and to date no joy.

I don't see a key or maybe it has a remote start?

I did add a 3rd AHRS (Counting the G five) to break a tie if needed.
 
You definitely have it all. Just food for thought. With the Touch screen you can operated the 750/650 on the touch screens except loading approaches. You just toggle the external/internal GPS on the Touch to make any changes. If doing an IFR approach you can split the screen on the PFD and have the approach plate directly in front of you and it’s part of your scan. So the 650 with the touch screens works great. The IPad mini works great with this system and works as a 3rd screen. I have it so the iPad sits above the 650 in a center stack configuration. I have found having the iPad on the center stack and also being removable has been an asset. Function wise is a 3rd screen needed, no. But if you want it then go for it.
 
AOA position

Ensure that the AOA indexer does not obstruct your vision of the runway during landing. It should be just left of your direct sight line to the runway. Yours looks positioned too far to the right. It should be in your peripheral vision.
 
Since you asked for comments, the auto pilot controller should be as high on the panel as you can get it, right below glare shield at eye level especially if you plan on flying in actual instrument conditions. In actual IMC looking down that low could cause spatial disorientation

There’s a solid reason why almost every manufacturer puts it up there.

View attachment 18303

Yep what he said. IMHO, ditch the center 460, save the $$$$ and move the autopilot controller to the top of the center panel, and move the 750 up as well. Other than that, I like it!
 
- To do the above, recommend deleting the center G3X display. It gains almost nothing over two displays (very easy flying IFR on the right display from the left seat) and the space is needed for moving stuff you do need.

Yep what he said. IMHO, ditch the center 460, save the $$$$ and move the autopilot controller to the top of the center panel, and move the 750 up as well. Other than that, I like it!

That is absolutely incorrect in an RV10. From the pilots seat, you cannot usefully reach and use the rightmost screen with the 310 panel.

The MFD is the panel I interact with the most during flight. Panning around the map, checking weather, checking waypoint info, checking the detailed engine page, etc. You want that screen as accessible and as close as reasonable. The PFD is important visually, but the main interaction with the PFD is frequency/baro/squak changes. Almost everything else is done thru the MFD.

Even to change the right screen to traffic (which I do when flying into OSH) I have to loosen my shoulder belts and really REACH.

Please sit in an RV10, with a 310 panel, with your seat belt on, and see how useful the right screen is to the pilot before making suggestions like this.



I second the thoughts about moving to a GTN650 vs a 750. The 750 looks awesome, but the stuff that needs all the screen realestate (plates, maps) will be interacted with on your center MFD.
 
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That is absolutely incorrect in an RV10. From the pilots seat, you cannot usefully reach and use the rightmost screen with the 310 panel.

The MFD is the panel I interact with the most during flight. Panning around the map, checking weather, checking waypoint info, checking the detailed engine page, etc. You want that screen as accessible and as close as reasonable. The PFD is important visually, but the main interaction with the PFD is frequency/baro/squak changes. Almost everything else is done thru the MFD.

Even to change the right screen to traffic (which I do when flying into OSH) I have to loosen my shoulder belts and really REACH.

Please sit in an RV10, with a 310 panel, with your seat belt on, and see how useful the right screen is to the pilot before making suggestions like this.



I second the thoughts about moving to a GTN650 vs a 750. The 750 looks awesome, but the stuff that needs all the screen realestate (plates, maps) will be interacted with on your center MFD.

I keep my right display on full size map mode. Never mess with it much. But then again I only fly hard VFR. I just use the display in front of me to check weather and plates when I need to. Putting the autopilot panel at the top center does align the build with most manufacturers design philosophy. Forcing a pilot to look down to twiddle with autopilot panel while being vectored for an approach in IFR is not good design imho.
 
That is absolutely incorrect in an RV10. From the pilots seat, you cannot usefully reach and use the rightmost screen with the 310 panel.

SNIP
Please sit in an RV10, with a 310 panel, with your seat belt on, and see how useful the right screen is to the pilot before making suggestions like this.
SNIP

Shoot fire - I got my IFR exam in my RV-10 with dual SkyView displays (one on each side) that included the left SkyView turned off (the partial panel part of the ride). It was trivial to do a full, under the hood approach using the right panel from the pilot seat. So trivial the examiner was not sure if he met the partial panel criteria.

Now what I will grant you, I never flown with whatever a 310 panel is (I assume the OPs is example). I used the Van’s a stock piece of aluminum for the panel, the left screen up and as high as it will go, the 650 as high as it will go in the center, and the right screen mounted just to the left of the center stack (as in not right in front of the co-pilot). Standard setup is the right screen is half EMS, half moving map. I use that moving map as the long range look ahead.

Side note - I have a lot of time in that plane flying from the right seat. No issues.

Below is the panel after the current owner did the latest modification (fourth panel update in ten years). Builders should assume they will want to chance something - so the fancy custom panel will not last all that long. Plan ahead. These four panel updates, other than component changes, consisted of a new $28 panel blank from Van’s, some time cutting holes and paint.

The new RV-10 will be similar except:
- The GTN-650 will be replaced with the GNC-355.
- The center section will be just wide enough to hold the GNC-355, the right screen will move back to the left (just right of the GNC-355) as I had it before.
- The G5 will be replaced with an AV-30.
- Will add a remote NAV, if not a remote NAV/COMM (preference but waiting on TRIG, if not TRIG then perhaps MGL).
- No wet compass (I added that on this RV-10 only to meet the local FSDO office issues - back when they had little to no experience with glass panels…

Carl
DCC344-BE-7253-443-E-AF52-2-C525-FAF0802.jpg
 
....Add a “Pilot/Co-Pilot) trim/flap control switch on the panel to select which stick is in control (in other words prevent the co-pilot from doing something stupid). I use a simple DPDT locking toggle switch in the center of the panel ....

Quick comment. If you do this, and it's a good idea, orient it sideways so that the toggle points to the active side. Less chance of confusion that way. I realize that it will need more lateral space and have a different look than the other switches, but IMHO it'll be worth that.

Dave
 
Don't get button happy on the sticks -- things that belong there are those that are used frequently or in a hurry. Fuel pump and start do not qualify, radios probably not -- when you're tuning the radio on the touchscreen, it's easy enough to swap or to use the monitor function.

Ed

+100

In my 6, I had a comm flip flop button on the stick; I thought that would be neat and convenient. One day fighting the stick in turbulence, I accidentally pressed it. Dead silence on the radio and wondered why the tower wasn't giving me further instructions. Realized the error and got spanked by ATC; Button gone, literally, the next day. Do that in IFR and things get ugly in a hurry. That button now switches screen modes on my EFIS and am surprised by how often it is accidentally pressed.

IMHO, you really need to think through what you put on the grip, including failure scenarios and accidental depression scenarios. Being cool should not be on the list, nor should "i have buttons left over." I think people that put a start button on the stick are crazy. Almost zero benefit and accidently pressing it starts chewing up gears or burning up the bendix drive. Really, how hard is it to move your hand another 12 inches once per flight? Some put a lockout switch on the panel. But nwo you have to move your arm that 12 inches, so why not just put the start button there? Hopefully you know, but the stick button will not pass the current necessary to activate the starter solenoid, so you must add a 5 amp relay, which is another failure point.

Larry
 
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I'm somewhat jaded having 300 hours behind my panel, not very much I would change. Here's some feedback, some echoing others mentions, to me it's a bit 'busy'.

- You have a lot of light dimmers. The cabin really isn't all that big and you get a lot of light off the panels. I honestly rarely use my light set up, when I do I usually just hit the red lights on for a few. My light controls are on the individual lights. 9 rheostats is a lot.
- I love glass as much as everyone, but you could probably replace your 750 with a 650 since you can get your maps on your MFD. I have a PFD/MFD 650 and love the set up.
- Wouldn't bother with the AOA indicator. It can be displayed on your PFD, you also get an audible tone when pushing into red.
- I prefer the AP Head to be higher as others have mentioned.
- No need for Co-pilot stick disconnect. You can easily reach over and slap someone's hands.
- Why the defrost fans switch? Just have them power on when your power is on, low amp draw and can help cool your avionics.
- Would shift your oxygen to the left, assuming you're flying there.
- G5 needed with 3 G3Xs? I use my G5 as backup ADAHRS, if you want that much redundancy and remove the G5 you would need another ADAHRS.
- Hobbs meter? As stated that's on your G3X.
- Would reorder switches with the most common on the left. For example boost pump more to the left. Would also combine a few, such as Taxi/Landing... I didn't do that but would if I was redoing it.
- Stick mapping. Lots of input to this, but I'll tell you what I have mapped and I'm extremely happy with it. PTT, Flaps, AP Disc, CWS, Trim, LVL.
 
Rocket man were you having a bad day?

The builder who posted this thread asked for suggestions and comments. He has received many different suggestions based on other pilot’s experiences . I would hardly consider the responses “the usual naysayers”. Chill out .

What’s great about DR’s wonderful website is builders/pilots can solicit input and receive lots of feedback. Your flippant reply to mine and others comments seems to indicate that such comments are not approved of by you.
 
You mentioned dual P-mags. They do have a switch to select either fixed timing or variable timing on the 6 cylinder P-Mag that I didn’t identify on your panel. It is optional if you only plan on running in variable mode but is recommended if you install a boosted engine.
 
Actually...

The builder who posted this thread asked for suggestions and comments. He has received many different suggestions based on other pilot’s experiences . I would hardly consider the responses “the usual naysayers”. Chill out .

What’s great about DR’s wonderful website is builders/pilots can solicit input and receive lots of feedback. Your flippant reply to mine and others comments seems to indicate that such comments are not approved of by you.

Actually, it wasn't you who I was referring to, so...

Remainder of reply deleted...
 
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