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VERY bad day

prkaye

Well Known Member
My engine had suddenly started consuming oil at an alarming rate and running a bit rough at high power settings. I took it to a very experienced AME at my airport today. He opened the oil filter and saw a significant amount of steel in it (picture below). The oil in the filter was black, after only 15 hours since new oil and filter.
His recommendation with this much steel in the filter and the black oil, is that the engine needs to be torn-down, inspected and re-built.
460 hours hobbs time, 12 years flying. In winter i pickled with 2F, fogged cylidners. Flew every 2 weeks on average, never longer than 4 weeks (except when pickled for winter). Engine was purchased as an overhauled engine from Aero Sport about 13 years ago (new cylinders).
 
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Read this first

I suggest you take a look at some of the Savvy articles, this one in particular released this week and is a good read for your exact issue.

I'm all about second guessing and early death of an engine. I dont know much else about your engine, TT, OH'd status, etc... I had a similar issue, followed Mike B's suggestions and I came out just fine with over 150 hours since I was planning an early death of my engine. Oil comes back all within the Lycoming metal in filter specs.

https://mailchi.mp/savvyaviation.com/1j20vrh4sa-890048?e=585f1f6158&fbclid=IwAR3Z_UWNcuRjh5SdSA5i3Duxm__HtfhSMFQUtFAyt5o6i0_l0394ww9pJDc
 
I agree that metal in the filter is not necessarily the death of the motor. I would figure out where the metal is being made before committing to an overhaul.
 
Thanks guys, i've been reading that article. I don't have a prop governor (FP prop). I don't have the expertise or confidence to try to track this down myself. The mechanic on the local field clearly doesn't think it's worth having him chase it down further, so i'd need to fly it somewhere else. I might send the photo to another mechanic at a different field and get their opinion and recommendations. The engine has been developing power just fine, so I would feel ok flying it 30 min to another mechanic, but i worry that it's a wild goose chase with a small chance of catastrophic failure en-route to another mechanic.
Although reading that article makes me think that maybe i should sign-up for the Saavy MX service and let them guide me through the next steps.
 
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Wash that filter in a small container of unleaded auto gas to get all the metal out of the filter element. Then decant the fuel from the container so all the metal is in a small pile in the bottom.
Now you can assess how much metal there is, and compare with the Lycoming SB guidance. The amount in your photo does not look like it would add up to 1/4 teaspoon, but it might. That amount is the threshold where Lycoming says to start thinking about doing something about it other than just change the filter and keep flying.

The "sudden increase" in oil consumption is concerning. It might also be an indication of what might be wrong inside. Rapidly wearing steel parts don't usually make oil consumption increase. I imagine that fine metal in the oil will accelerate the wear of the oil control rings. Be interesting to hear what other folks think about that.
I've had one experience with an O-320 that sat for 2--3 years and then resumed service. It exhibited a gradual but steady decline in power (evident by static RPM achieved with a F/P prop) and a gradual but steady increase in oil consumption. These were considered classic symptoms of badly wearing lifters and cam lobes. When the power output became unacceptable for the mission, the engine was overhauled.
 
Call Savvy and see what they suggest.
I would at least borescope the cylinders. Perhaps the metal and oil consumption is coming from one cylinder. How do the plugs look? How about the individual exhausts. Plugs and exhaust can give an indication of oil burn.
 
Yes, check the plugs to see if a cylinder or 2 are wet with oil. Would explain the rapid oil usage & dirty oil if you have a broken oil ring.
 
I suggest you follow the Savvy guide in the article to continue to dig into the issue. If you're not confident, then maybe sign up. If I wasn't tuned into the process and able to execute as described I would have already sign up. I can tell you the day WILL come when I hand over my money to Savvy for some solid guidance in these situations. I see it as money well spent.

All that said, if I recall correctly the process is:
1- Figure out how much metal you have in the filter using the gas cleaning method described above.
2- If you are less than 1/4 teaspoon then...
3- Change the oil and filter, ground run for an hour, check filter again
4- If it's cleaner, then change filter and run for a couple more hours in flight
5- check filter, if you're good, run it for 25 hours I think.

Not the exact steps, but what I'm getting at is follow the process and see what you get. You may, like I did when I was making metal, find that the problem settles down and you can continue to fly in comfort.

I upped my oil changes to every 25 hours, also switched to the reusable oil filter to cut on change costs and allow me to more frequently check the filter between oil changes.

My 2 cents, worth nothing more than a read and your consideration.

YMMV
 
Have you cut previous filters to know if this is a change in trend?

That's about what my filter looked like 1-1/2 years ago, was about 10x the amount of metal from the previous filter. Oil analysis also indicated a sudden uptick in metals. We pulled a cylinder and found spalled lifters...5 months later I was flying again with all new lifters and a new cam.
 
Years ago another AME looked at my oil filter and there were a few flakes of metal, but not enough that it worried him. If i recall, those flakes were a bit larger than the fine metal particles that are all over this filter.
My only hesitation about doing that Savvy diagnostic method in my case is the massive oil consumption that I'm seeing. Like a quart per hour. I feel like that is excessive, and that flying with the engine dumping out that much oil could be asking for trouble? (Plus the slightly rough running).
 
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Phil - what kind of cylinder coating? If it’s Cerminil from the old ECI, we’ve got a number of folks that experienced ring delamination that caused a sudden, dramatic increase in oil consumption.
 
I'm pretty sure they are ECI cylinders and I seem to recall being told they have some kind of nickel coating.
Ring delamination - would this show up in a compression check? Could it also account for the metal in the filter?
 
As Ironflight said, with such an increase in oil consumption I would suspect cracked or broken rings, it is possible that some of the metal your seeing is from the ring but unlikely. If I were your mechanic I would boroscope and inspect for scoring on the cylinder walls, also doing the fresh oil and filter changes is good idea as well, did you or your mechanic pull the suction screen on the engine sump to inspect that for metal? there are plenty of checks to do before just throwing in the towel. A trick I have done in the past to check cam lobe wear is pull each rocker cover off and measure each rocker movement and make sure they are all equal. Hope some of this info helps
 
I've asked him to do a compression test and he's agreed - probably in the next couple of days. Can broken rings be seen on a borescope? Or is that what scoring on cylinder walls show? Could that metal in the filter be from a cylinder wall? It seems unlikely that i have two separate unrelated engine problems at the same time (cylinder and cam/impellor failing simultaneously?).
 
You may want to check out my thread on ECI cylinder issues here.

These were later (post AD) ECI cylinders with Cermanil coating.

Not saying this is your issue, but it's a possibility.
 
Remove two cylinders

I was in the same situation 6 month ago.
I flew the plane to an experienced shop.
They removed two cylinders for inspection.
There where corrosion on the camshaft, lifters and one cylinder.
My superior 360 engine was new 2006.
Now I´m in the process of running in the rebuilt engine.

Good luck
 
If the ring problem doesn't account for the steel in the filter, then i have two simultaneous unrelated problems, which seems highly unlikely. Is it possible that the metal in this photo is actually not steel, and is a result of the ring/cylinder problem? I wondering if the mechanic assumed it was steel without actually checking.
 
My engine had suddenly started consuming oil at an alarming rate and running a bit rough at high power settings.

What is the rate of oil consumption. I agree that metal in the filter at that level does not in it's self mandate a tear down. However, that should NOT universally mean that a tear down is not the best approach.

If an engine, lets say, goes from burning a quart in 10 hours and overnight starts burning a quart in 2 hours AND develops a noticeable loss in max power AND you find metallic evidence in the oil filter, you don't need to be an ace mechanic to realize that something has changed and that change is significant. Something in there has likely broken. Though that is not a guarantee either. I was making almost that much metal (aluminum in my case) when the piston pin caps started wearing down.

I will avoid speculation on the issue with the amount of info provided, but given symptoms of either burning a lot of oil or pushing a lot of oil out the breather, combined with a noticeable drop in performance the issue likely resides in a cylinder.

Some things I would do before tearing engine apart

determine if oil is being burned in the combustion chamber or being pushed out the breather due to blowby. This can help in speculation of cause.

run a compression test

Do a borescope analysis

Determine if metal is ferrous or not and possibly send to a lab for analysis to determine exact composition of metal. With this data, Lyc can tell you which part it came from.

IMHO, there is a decent likelihood that you have only one bad cylinder that needs to be replaced. A complete teardown just doesn't make sense until you can identify what the issue is. At minimum, I would pull all four jugs for analysis and THEN decide if a case tear down is required based upon that analysis and the issues found or not found.

Larry
 
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If the ring problem doesn't account for the steel in the filter, then i have two simultaneous unrelated problems, which seems highly unlikely. Is it possible that the metal in this photo is actually not steel, and is a result of the ring/cylinder problem? I wondering if the mechanic assumed it was steel without actually checking.

Yes that is possible. There is a lot of aluminum in these engines, BUT the oil consumption change along with power reduction IMHO makes it likely that it is some type of steel or coated steel part. With proper parts, you can't make that quantity and size of ferrous debris from just typical wear between the rings and wall. However, if you have coated parts (either rings or cyl walls) that are failing, then yes you can see that size and quantity of debris, as it can be the coating breaking off vs the very fine stuff seen from parts wearing together. A standard nitrided cyl wall with a cast iron ring cannot make that size and quantity of debris without a serious problem being present. OTOH, a coated ring can create relatively large, yet thin pieces of debris, as it is not wear, but actually delamination of the coating that is occurring.
 
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I'm pretty sure they are ECI cylinders and I seem to recall being told they have some kind of nickel coating.
Ring delamination - would this show up in a compression check? Could it also account for the metal in the filter?

ring delamination may or may not show in a compression test, depending on many factors. Yes IMHO it could produce the size and quantity of the debris in your pic.
 
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I've asked him to do a compression test and he's agreed - probably in the next couple of days. Can broken rings be seen on a borescope? Or is that what scoring on cylinder walls show? Could that metal in the filter be from a cylinder wall? It seems unlikely that i have two separate unrelated engine problems at the same time (cylinder and cam/impellor failing simultaneously?).

Broken rings cannot be seen via a borescope. Broken compression rings can be noted via a compression test. A broken oil ring can only be confirmed with an cylinder teardown, though can often be deduced when a cyl shows signs of HEAVY oil consumption (wet plugs, pooled oil visible through sparkplug hole, etc.). Typically a broken ring will not show scoring on the walls, though it can in some cases.

Cam failure is quite unlikely in your case. Cam failure does NOT increase oil consumption and the performance decline happens slowly over MANY hours and will not appear as an overnight loss of engine performance. Also spalled lifters create a very unique type of metal shaving that looks like very small finger nail clippings (1/4 moon shape).
 
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My engine had suddenly started consuming oil at an alarming rate and running a bit rough at high power settings.

I flew an IO-360 powered ship across Canada 3x that had 0.100" worn off one intake lobe and 0.150" worn off the other. Normal lift on a new 320/360 cam is 0.340" It did not run rough. Oil consumption was normal. (The final trip was to have it replaced with a new IO 390 with roller lifters)

The "running a bit rough" observation would make me more than a bit nervous to fly it. Best of luck diagnosing where the metal is coming from. I agree that it is most likely not a cam / lifter issue , at least not the start of the metal in the filter.
It is only a very bad day if it quits or grenades over non landable terrain.
 
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Thanks so much to all of your advice here. It convinced me to dig deeper and not just take the mechanic's conclusion that the engine requires immediate tear-down. I went out today and dug deeper.... here's what i found:
Metal: I retrieved the filter element from the AME. I borrowed their magnet and we ran it over the metal on several of the pleats. Very little (if any) of it was sticking to the magnet. They insisted that yesterday they had checked it with a magnet and found steel, but I don't know... if it is steel shouldn't it very obviously cling to a magnet?
Compression test (cold): Cylinder #1 would not pressurize at all. Zero pressure. It wasn't obvious where the air was going. We tried repeatedly, trying the prop several time in all positions. Nothing. The other cylinders were 74, 78 and 79.
Question 1: If i have a cylinder that isn't pressurizing, shouldn't i have noticed this with a significant power reduction or very rough running in flight?
Question 2: is there a lab where i can send the whole filter element for analysis?
 
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Thanks so much to all of your advice here. It convinced me to dig deeper and not just take the mechanic's conclusion that the engine requires immediate tear-down. I went out today and dug deeper.... here's what i found:
Metal: I retrieved the filter element from the AME. I borrowed their magnet and we ran it over the metal on several of the pleats. Very little (if any) of it was sticking to the magnet. They insisted that yesterday they had checked it with a magnet and found steel, but I don't know... if it is steel shouldn't it very obviously cling to a magnet?
Compression test (cold): Cylinder #1 would not pressurize at all. Zero pressure. It wasn't obvious where the air was going. We tried repeatedly, trying the prop several time in all positions. Nothing. The other cylinders were 74, 78 and 79.
Question 1: If i have a cylinder that isn't pressurizing, shouldn't i have noticed this with a significant power reduction or very rough running in flight?
Question 2: is there a lab where i can send the whole filter element for analysis?
Borescope. You need to get your borescope in there. Sounds like your A&P does not have one or he/she would have already told you what they saw. Just buy one on ebay or amazon or directly from the supplier. There are a couple of good options, and a dozen VAF threads.
 
We removed the cover and the valves appeared both to be operating normally. Would a broken ring be consistent with the oil loss and metal (if the metal is indeed non-ferrous)?
 
Thanks so much to all of your advice here. It convinced me to dig deeper and not just take the mechanic's conclusion that the engine requires immediate tear-down. I went out today and dug deeper.... here's what i found:
Metal: I retrieved the filter element from the AME. I borrowed their magnet and we ran it over the metal on several of the pleats. Very little (if any) of it was sticking to the magnet. They insisted that yesterday they had checked it with a magnet and found steel, but I don't know... if it is steel shouldn't it very obviously cling to a magnet?

Not necessarily. First, it is a VERY small piece of metal, so a magnet won't pull very hard on it. Second, if it is truly a delaminated coating, the iron content may be low. You are also dealing with the surface tension of the oil and that can be almost as strong as the magetic force. I observed my alum flakes stick to the magnet. This wasn't due to the magnetic pull, but from the surface tension of the oil.
 
Compression test (cold): Cylinder #1 would not pressurize at all. Zero pressure. It wasn't obvious where the air was going. We tried repeatedly, trying the prop several time in all positions. Nothing. The other cylinders were 74, 78 and 79.
Question 1: If i have a cylinder that isn't pressurizing, shouldn't i have noticed this with a significant power reduction or very rough running in flight?
Question 2: is there a lab where i can send the whole filter element for analysis?

That really depends upon why it is reading 0 and there are several possible reasons. Some leaks are significant during static testing, but not that bad during dynamic testing. In these cases, there is enough dynamic compression to ignite and therefore will show as reduced power instead of no power. This is why everyone in the auto world starts with dynamic compression instead of a static or leak down test.

Either way, you found a place to start. Pull #1 and see what is going on. I wouldn't bother with a particle analysis. Once you pull number 1 it will likely be obvious what the problem is.
 
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With magnetic metal in the oil filter and the age of the engine and low hours
i would have the shop remove cylinders 1 and 3 for inspection.
This will reveal the problem (s) regardless what it is.

Good luck
 
Ok thanks, so it seems to me my next steps are:
1) send the filter media to Blackstone for analysis,
2) send the offending cylinder back to Aero Sport for analysis,
3) find somebody local who knows how to borescope to inspect my cams.
 
We removed the cover and the valves appeared both to be operating normally. Would a broken ring be consistent with the oil loss and metal (if the metal is indeed non-ferrous)?

A broken ring will not typically produce much of ANY metal particles. A broken ring land on the piston MAY produce measurable quantities of non-ferrous particles. I would stop speculating and just pull the #1 jug. That will likely produce definitive results. If you mechanic didn't bother with a compression check with the reported symptoms (reduced power and significant oil consumption increase), or worse, ignored a 0 reading and recommended a tear down, it is time to find a new mechanic.
 
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With cyl 1 and 3 removed the cam and lifters can be inspected.
A qualified mechanic should be able to inspect the cylinders in the shop.
Try to have one person/ company to be responsible for the work.

Good luck
 
Where is the air going?

Mickey is right, a looksee with a borescope is the right path, but until the borescope shows up, you can hook up the compression tester, put air in with the piston at TDC on the compression stroke. Listen to the breather to see if the rings leak, or much more dire, you broke a piston, which would sure explain the high oil consumption. Listen the the exhaust to see if the exhaust valve leaks. It could be burned, cracked, broken or sticking. Or some combination of those. Listen at the air intake to see if the intake valve is leaking. That’s pretty rare, but conceivable. At this point, I don’t see a need to pull #3 cylinder unless you find some compelling reason.
 
Not intending to be, and at the risk of coming off as an jerk, I respectfully disagree with "very bad day". Of course no one wants an engine problem, but...
because you took prompt action, absolutely no one was hurt, nor even inconvenienced away from home. The airplane is safely at your home, with your people safely diagnosing an issue that quite possibly could have turned ugly in a hurry. I commend you for investigating and not continuing to fly in denial and hope that it will clear up. Of course no one looks forward to major engine repairs, but it is a direct result of "having an engine" - while very reliable, they do wear out or mechanically fail at times. We are very fortunate to have such reliability that it almost escapes our expectations when we fly ... it may fail.

Anyway, I hope that you can see the the brighter side of the bad day...

I hope that it is a quick and painless fix!
 
Not intending to be, and at the risk of coming off as an jerk, I respectfully disagree with "very bad day". Of course no one wants an engine problem, but...
because you took prompt action, absolutely no one was hurt, nor even inconvenienced away from home.
Yes, of course you're absolutely right. I am fortunately enough that i've never had a very bad day with my plane, and i should be thankful for that. It was just a "relatively" bad day, and one i wasn't expecting. On the bright-side, it's a forced learning-experience.
 
So i'm going to pull jug #1 and send it back to aero sport power to be looked at. Questions:
Question 1: can anybody point me to photo or video instructions for removing a cylinder? I've never done this.
Question 2: How do i protect/preserve the engine while the cylinder is off?
 
Since you have verified these cylinders are ECI/Titan, with the associated trouble with them, if it were me I would replace all cylinders with new Superior of Lycoming. I was in your very same position 3 years ago and had I known about the trouble with ECI/Titan cylinders I would have done it immediately and saved lots of heart ache and expense. Unfortunately I did not have any idea bout Titan cylinders and by the time I addressed the issue I had to do a full TDI after the nickel coating went through the whole engine. Mid 2000's ECI Titan cylinders are little ticking time bombs ready to sluff off the improperly installed nickel coating. Just my opinion.
 
Since you have verified these cylinders are ECI/Titan, with the associated trouble with them, if it were me I would replace all cylinders with new Superior of Lycoming. I was in your very same position 3 years ago and had I known about the trouble with ECI/Titan cylinders I would have done it immediately and saved lots of heart ache and expense. Unfortunately I did not have any idea bout Titan cylinders and by the time I addressed the issue I had to do a full TDI after the nickel coating went through the whole engine. Mid 2000's ECI Titan cylinders are little ticking time bombs ready to sluff off the improperly installed nickel coating. Just my opinion.

Been there, done that and have four Titan/ECI doorstops sitting in my hangar. Got to pay for the overhaul twice because the payment check was stolen and cashed. Now that was a very bad day!
 
Since you have verified these cylinders are ECI/Titan, with the associated trouble with them, if it were me I would replace all cylinders with new Superior of Lycoming. I was in your very same position 3 years ago and had I known about the trouble with ECI/Titan cylinders I would have done it immediately and saved lots of heart ache and expense. Unfortunately I did not have any idea bout Titan cylinders and by the time I addressed the issue I had to do a full TDI after the nickel coating went through the whole engine. Mid 2000's ECI Titan cylinders are little ticking time bombs ready to sluff off the improperly installed nickel coating. Just my opinion.

I agree that if he’s having the ring delamination problem, the solution is to change the jugs. There is supposedly a way to re-hone the Cerminil, but I have been told it is extremely hard to do (I haven’t tried it - listened to some former ECI employees who told me this years ago…). The problem was with the rings sloughing off BW, not the coating coming off the cylinder walls.

Teh only problem right now is finding new jugs - the only supplier in the industry right now is Superior, according to my engine-builder sources.
 
Any special reason for Mogas vs. some other solvent (paint thinner, 100LL, etc)?

Hi Bill. Just recommending to avoid using leaded fuel as a solvent.

I had an old car mechanic friend in the 1970's who used to clean carburetors all the time in gasoline, leaded of course in those days. He had dull gray, brittle hair and started having bleeding problems in his gums. He was diagnosed with acute lead poisoning.

Mineral Spirits would probably be OK too.
 
I observed my alum flakes stick to the magnet. This wasn't due to the magnetic pull, but from the surface tension of the oil.

This, by the way, explains the observed behavior described in the Savvy story where the mechanic insisted the metal was steel and disregarded the lab analysis. It stuck to his magnet. But the lab said it was aluminum.
 
So i'm going to pull jug #1 and send it back to aero sport power to be looked at. Questions:
Question 1: can anybody point me to photo or video instructions for removing a cylinder? I've never done this.
Question 2: How do i protect/preserve the engine while the cylinder is off?

Removing a cylinder is not particularly difficult. But OTOH there's enough that can be done wrong that I would not do it based on just internet advice. See if you can find some experienced help (e.g., someone who's done it before).
 
Removing a cylinder is not particularly difficult. But OTOH there's enough that can be done wrong that I would not do it based on just internet advice. See if you can find some experienced help (e.g., someone who's done it before).
+1
Having done it before but supervised, I absolutely would not have wanted to do it the first time solo.
Either way read up on it first, the LYC engine overhaul manual and other sources. In particular pay attention to the torque instructions - many A&Ps don't even know that the cylinder hold-down muts are to be torqued WET using specific lubricants, ref. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defa...Tightening Procedures for Thru-Studs and .pdf
 
If I pull the jug now, and the engine may be sitting for the winter until i can get a replacement sourced and installed, how can i protect the engine from further corrosion while it sits? I won't be able to run preservative oil through it with a cylinder off.
 
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