What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

notam interpretation

tkatc
I fly into an airport that currently has a notam which includes the language "rwy clsd except dalgt vmc". My question is what is the FAA's definition of dalgt (i.e. daylight)? Is it between sunrise and sunset for the airport's latitude and longitude? Is it civil twilight (where the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon but still provides adequate light to see) at the airport's location? I asked two different controllers why they used sundown and not civil twilight. Neither controller was able to tell me if it was in the FAR's or in a controller's handbook. I just would like to be able to read it in an official source.
Twice in the last month I have had to deviate around weather which caused me to arrive 7-10 minutes after official sunset, and I had to land at another airport while my hangar and car were 12 miles away. The last time was Wednesday coming back from Oshkosh.
Thanks
N41HS
RV6
 
ILS Intercept Altitude

Hi tkatc, if I am cleared for an ILS and cleared to maintain 3000' till established, and the min altitude for the segment is 2000', does the controller expect me to descent to 2000' to intercept the GS,or stay at 3000' and intercept the GS? Thanks
 
Not tkatc but...

Hi tkatc, if I am cleared for an ILS and cleared to maintain 3000' till established, and the min altitude for the segment is 2000', does the controller expect me to descent to 2000' to intercept the GS,or stay at 3000' and intercept the GS? Thanks

That phraseology means that you should maintain 3000 until established on the localizer, at which point you may descend to the appropriate segment altitude. My interpretation of "established" is that the localizer CDI is off the peg and I am confident I know where I am...

Don
 
Aerial...to transit class c or d you have to establish 2 way radio communications. Without radios you must remain clear of that airspace. I have seen special requests by telephone for aircraft without radios (agcats) to operate low level between a specified time period and that was permitted but only because the agcats operate so low to the ground they are not a hazard to other traffic.

Hobby...that is a very good question. I do not know the answer off the top of my head but I do know the intent of that NOTAM is to protect the FAA from law suits and such. Typically, the reason such a NOTAM is issued, is because of poor or nonexistant airfield lighting. If you cracked up a landing in the dark they don't want to be blamed. I will have to look up such a definition when I get to work. ( am off til mid August, RV transition training Aug-9-11th)

barry...a controller has responsibilites to keep you clear of other aircraft. he is also responsible to clear you for such an approach so you intercept the glidepath from BELOW. Depending on how far you are from the airport, that 3000' may be in compliance but may not. He also issues the phrase "until established on the localizer" meaning you should be dead on it before you descend via the glideslope. If the controller isn't protecting you from other traffic, using the example you gave, it is a poor technique on the part of the controller. I prefer to say something like "maintain at or above 2000 until established" This allows you to descend (possibly below the glideslope) to intercept properly.
 
If the controller is clearing you onto the approach at 3000, then it must be far enough away from the airport to still be under the glideslope. The instruction is to maintain 3000 until established on the localizer. Once established on the localizer, you COULD descend to the minimum altitude for that segment of the approach.... BUT, if you just stay level you'll intercept the GS shortly and be able to follow it in from there anyway.

This is often done keep you clear of other traffic, or if the intercept to the approach occurs at a point in the controller's airspace where the minimum vectoring altitude is higher than the approach altitude. A controller can't descend an IFR aircraft below the MVA because of obstacles/terrain (with some exceptions), so he must ensure you remain at the minimum vectoring altitude until established on a segment of the published approach. Those are just a couple examples of why you'd receive such a clearance.
 
Last edited:
Need a Ride?

And why do you guys all live if Florida, California or Texas? I WANT a ride!!!!

Thanks for this thread! I have been following it and appreciate your comments. I am in PA at N13 and can give you a ride in a 6. Just call or email me and we can hook up.

570-204-4745
 
They are not permitted to fly at my airport....and I would think they would be prohibited at most if not all other airports. AMA is an organization that handles the R/C thing and they have specific fields and insurances set up just for that hobby. I doubt anybody could stop you from flying R/C on your own property but certainly could stop you at a public airport.
 
Class C Vector

Once, I was VFR with Flight Following and I was about to fly over the Class C airspace of an airport that I won't mention. I was 2,000' above the ceiling of the Class C and the approach controller told me to "remain clear of class charlie." I think, "No problem, I'm way above the class C." When I didn't turn the controller told me to fly to a landmark that was not marked on the sectional. (I used to live near this airport so I just happened to know where it was.)

It was obvious the controller was trying to keep me out of the lateral bounds of the Class C. I considered using the word "Cancel," and continuing my flight but I complied with the detour. I wouldn't think the controller would be allowed to tell me to "remain clear of the Class C," let alone give me a vector to fly that was outside of his airspace

I complied because there wasn't any real inconvenience and I'm sure the guy had a reason. I'd probably comply again for the same reasons but I've always wondered about the legalities of it. Had I not been on FF I would have simply flown right over his airport. Am I missing something?
 
They are not permitted to fly at my airport....and I would think they would be prohibited at most if not all other airports. AMA is an organization that handles the R/C thing and they have specific fields and insurances set up just for that hobby. I doubt anybody could stop you from flying R/C on your own property but certainly could stop you at a public airport.

I flew into KOHC Nacogdoches Tx the other morning and there were about 10 guys flying RC's about 200 yards due east of a N/S runway. Seemed kind of weird to me.
 
You are popular

TKATC,

Thanks for answering so many questions. You are part of our Aviation family and your expertise is much appreciated.

:)
 
Birkel...I do not know the reason for the vector. I could speculate on several things but it is just a guess. At my airport we have fighters, sometimes the fighters do an SFO (simulated flame out) from 7000 agl. When they practice this manuever we sterilize the airspace the best that we can even though VFRs could be overflying legally. So you are correct...you could have just canceled flight following and legally flew right over the top without talking to them....but it sounds as though it might not have been the safest thing. If he wasn't too bust I would ask him for an explanation....I use the phrase "Hey so and so, do you have time for a question?" I say that to planes and I have heard pilots ask me that. That gives the controller some time to handle priorities and then get back to you if he/she can.

RV9798...Thanks. Like I said when I started this...I cannot contribute as far as a builder/owner/or flier just yet so this is my area of expertise. And I have learned far more from you guys than you guys have learned from me.
 
And that, my friends.....

.... Like I said when I started this...I cannot contribute as far as a builder/owner/or flier just yet so this is my area of expertise. And I have learned far more from you guys than you guys have learned from me.

....is why this forum is more like a family than a collection of RV nuts:)

Thanks Terry,
 
Pierre...thanks for your replies...I know they are filled with good intentions...but you have been calling me Terry for weeks. My name is TONY!!! LOL
 
Established

That phraseology means that you should maintain 3000 until established on the localizer, at which point you may descend to the appropriate segment altitude. My interpretation of "established" is that the localizer CDI is off the peg and I am confident I know where I am...

There is a definition for established as +/- 5 degrees or half scale deflection and 2 1/2 for an ILS. Not that anyone can see your instruments. Unfortunately its not contained in the Pilot/Controller Glossary; but buried in the text of the Instrument Flying Handbook. It is an ICAO definition.
 
Squawk code xxx8?

I posted this to a Key West Florida thread, relating to working with the controllers down there.

I don't think your experience there is atypical. The Navy controllers are not making things easy. After transitioning in January, and getting poor service both directions (I had to press ATC) it would appear the Navy controllers are tired of dealing with Key West GA traffic and trying to "train" us GA guys to just steer clear. One direction they issued a transponder code that included an 8, I replied unable, so only then did they give me a code that was possible. The other direction they tried to get me to just fly around their airspace, something I'd do if high, but I told them I was low and I wanted to stay closer to land. Ultimately, they worked with me, but only after prodding. Granted, I don't know their side of the story (I'm sure they've seen some crazy pilot tricks) but if they are treating folks that way just to avoid work, I hope they find a different line of work.

An 8? Bored senseless? Wanting us GA's to go away? Thanks much Tony! I'm enjoying the insight you are providing.
 
Last edited:
Nomocon....sorry to hear about sub-par service. My experience (and I was one of them) is that military controllers are fairly young...and GREEN. They are just kids and still learning. Of course, there are veterans watching over them and hopefully trying to correct them and hone their skills. You can usually tell after a few transmissions if the controller is seasoned or not.

I think you may find many more "fresh" controllers in the near future. When Reagan fired the striking controllers in '81 the FAA brought in all new controllers and those guys, who are today's veterans, are retiring. The FAA's recent hiring practice (which is now on the mend) left us with people with little to NO experience. I fear it will be a few years before you start seeing the "seasoning" creep back into my profession.
 
A two part question

TAATC,
I have been following this thread with much interest and have learned much as a result so many thanks in advance.

I have a two part question would appreciate you and all others shedding some light here if you can.

First the easy one, when you are given an IFR clearance that involves a route such as 'cleared to ABC vortac 190 radial to XYZ vortac 250 radial to 123 Vortac?' do you have to repeat all the radial (routes between the two VOR) or can the read back be just 'cleared to ABC , XYZ, 123.. and so on?

Second question is as a result of a goof up I did last week when I was on a IFR flight plan to San Carlos (KSQL). My goof up was that I had dialed in the wrong frequency for the SQL tower instead of 119.00, I was on 119.80

On the GPS approach after I was asked to go to tower, I announced my position by some thing like this..' San Carlos tower, EXP 12345 ON GPS APPROACH JUST BEFORE FF' and then I got a response back ' REPORT ONCE AIRPORT IN SIGHT'? so after a bit of flying I reported back once I had the airport in sight maybe about 2.5 miles out. Then some time goes and he ask me again WHAT IS YOUR POISTION and I go '1.5 MILES AT 1600' with no response back from him. I continued with the approach till almost over the fence but since I did no have the cleared to land instruction, I decided to do a go around (I was VFR condition)? then some one comes on the radio and says to tower that I am on the wrong frequency, and tower asked me what airport I was intending to land and once I said SQL, we realized that I was on the wrong frequency and things got cleared from then on and I contacted SQL tower and landed VFR at SQL without any incident.

So, here is my question knowing well that I own the mistake? but shouldn't have the tower that I was communicating with have known that I was not at his airport not seeing my plane in his radar. I am also baffled as why he never said any thing about that he was not San Carlos, since my radio calls always started by the word "San Carlos Tower"
I am fairly certain that an IDENT instruction from him would have cleared the situation much earlier.

Anyway, the lesson for me is to double check my frequency specially number eight and zero.
Many thanks if you can shed some light as what tower sees and what can not see in such situation.

Mehrdad
P.S. the fact that the other airport (119.80) had runway 30 as their active runway and planes landing and taking off was some what in line as what I was seeing.
 
VFR on top

On a recent flight in eastern Washington State, I was flying at 8,500' in heavy haze. I was VFR - I was able to see the ground from my altitude, but I was concerned about going over the Cascade mountains in the haze.

I was on FF, so I notified Center that I was going off freq temporarily to get a weather update from Flight Watch.

Flight Watch told me that I could climb to about 9500' and get above the haze to safely cross the Cascades, with clearing skys west of the Cascades.

Wtihout going into all the details, at 15,000' I finally had a good horizon and was VFR on Top. But I couldn't descend because the haze was too thick to see below me.

Problem was... I did not have O2 on board!

When I notified Center that I was VFR on Top at 15,000' and no O2, they asked me to climb to 15,500 for VFR altitude. I replied "Unable to climb - I am negative O2 and on top of a solid layer." Long story short - I was VFR on Top at 15,000 for about ten minutes until I crossed the Cascades and found clear skys to descend on the other side of the mountains. Center worked with me to look for the nearest hole for me to descend and kept track of my time above 12,500'.

When I got back to lower altitudes, I was expecting Center to give me the dreaded telephone number to call when I land. Never happened. I descended into my home airport, dropped FF, and landed safely under clear, blue skys!

So my question is... Could I have gotten in trouble (legally) for being above 14,000' with no O2? Since I had recieved an in-flight weather update from flight watch saying that I would be VFR on Top at 9,500', could that have been used as a defense as I climbed above the haze?

(Disclaimer)I have to admit that I really never felt the effects of the altitude (I'm in very good health), but I was very concerned as the ground disappeared below me! I did keep my single axis A/P engaged to remove some of the workload from me, and had my plane trimmed for a very shallow descent.
 
Bavafa,
Question 1. I would advise you read back all IFR clearances verbatim. Sometimes those radials go straight to the next VOR...sometimes there is a bend in the route. If I notice a clearance like that I will read it verbatim, unless I know it is a direct route from VOR to VOR, and in that case I would like to hear you read it back exactly as I read it to you.

Question 2. We have already identified the main cause of the problem. I doubt you will make that mistake again. My suggestion to you though would be if you didn't recieve a clearance to land...ASK!! And if no response you could always look toward the tower and see if they are emitting some sort of light gun signal to you. I think you did the right thing by going around without a clearance.

As for the controller you WERE talking to...keep in mind, not every control tower has RADAR equipment. So when he asked your position I am confident he had the binoculars out and he was looking for you. I think by you calling out the name of the tower, it should have triggered a better response from the controller unless he never heard it. If the frequencies are so similar I am sure it has happened before and they should be alert for this situation. But many times a pilot will cut himself off initially because he starts talking before the radio has a chance to start transmitting.
 
It was obvious the controller was trying to keep me out of the lateral bounds of the Class C. I considered using the word "Cancel," and continuing my flight but I complied with the detour. I wouldn't think the controller would be allowed to tell me to "remain clear of the Class C," let alone give me a vector to fly that was outside of his airspace

tkatced address this already but I wanted to clarify on a few things you said here. An instruction to remain clear of a surface area (Class D, C or B) is legitimate, though it sounds like you were clear vertically and so a "remain clear of class C" didn't make any sense. However, the vector he issued was not outside of his airspace.

Approach controllers own a lot more than the lateral/vertical dimensions of airport surface area (the Class C in your case). They control all the Class E airspace typically up to a 40-60nm radius from the primary airport, and vertically from the Class E floor up to typically 12,000ft MSL (in my area anyway). The Center takes over above the ceiling of Approach's airspace, and also outside of the lateral boundary.

You were still in that controller's airspace, even though you were clear of the Charlie. Now, the portion of his airspace you occupied was Class E, so there is no communication requirement on your part. You are correct in that you could have canceled flight following and continued on. Truly, the vector could never have been issued to you if you hadn't had flight following in the first place (but I think having FF is always a good idea.) I'm not sure why the controller didn't specify the need for the vector, but asking for clarification is perfectly acceptable :)

As for the controller you WERE talking to...keep in mind, not every control tower has RADAR equipment. So when he asked your position I am confident he had the binoculars out and he was looking for you. I think by you calling out the name of the tower, it should have triggered a better response from the controller unless he never heard it. If the frequencies are so similar I am sure it has happened before and they should be alert for this situation. But many times a pilot will cut himself off initially because he starts talking before the radio has a chance to start transmitting.

All great points, and had the controller replied as he was supposed to, with his identity first, perhaps Bavafa would have caught the error before the controller. Just one difference in a chain of events would have made the difference.

So my question is... Could I have gotten in trouble (legally) for being above 14,000' with no O2?

It's possible, but I don't think ATC would have been the ones to initiate any kind of investigation. I'm not sure who would typically "catch" a pilot in the act and lodge a complaint, but I certainly wouldn't. I think most controllers wouldn't even know there was a problem, being that oxygen requirements are a private pilot reg, and we don't necessarily keep up with all of those :) I don't say this to try and encourage a false sense of security about ATC. Some controllers can be real jerks and try to stick something to a pilot just because, but I don't think your situation would be likely noticed by ATC as a problem.
 
Obstruction clearance question

Hi,

I was wondering what the obstruction clearance is in a airport environment ?

Also, how much fuel does a 0-360 use at full throttle.


Thanks,


exp2ex
 
Great thread here! I have a question...as a newly minted IR pilot, I took my wife on a short flight to a local class c airport. I filed an instrument flight plan, and was "cleared for the visual runway 29L, make short approach" if I wanted to otherwise traffic would be delay me significantly. I told the controller I was able to make the landing, and that I wanted then to depart to the west after my touch and go. He replied "you want to do WHAT?!" He thought I was making a full stop. I said that if it was a problem I could exit the runway and then taxi back to the end, and he said "XXX, contact tower..." and seemed really put off. Did I do something wrong? I planned on departing VFR after my touch and go, as I figured my IFR flight plan would be automatically closed. advice?
 
Chris....seems like you did everything exactly right if you ask me. But let me try to explain a "possible" scenario for you....

Obviously the controller was trying to separate you from another aircraft who was also inbound. The controller was looking at your IFR "strip" and that told him you were landing at whatever airport. "Typically" those aircraft on an IFR flight plan that accept a "Visual" approach are operators who are actually going from "A" to "B"....as in traveling and not "practicing". Many aircraft that are practicing usually request some sort of approach, ie. ILS, VOR, GPS etc etc. Controllers tend to give real world "travelers" proirity over aircraft that are just practicing. In your case it sounds as though the controller had to make a few moves to make you number 1 for the airport and then when he realized you were just the "practicing" sort...he got a bit annoyed.

Again, you didn't do anything wrong...it was just an educated assumption on the part of the controller....an assumption that was obviously incorrect. No big deal either way though.
 
"Line up and Wait"

I'm departing at a towered field (KEFD), I don't see any other departing aircraft, I've completed my run-up and advised tower that I'm ready. Tower's response was "9er siera uniform, line up and wait". Ok.... I don't see any other departing aircraft and I've never heard this request so I respond, "tower, exactly where do you want me to get in line". Tower responds with a chuckle, "that's the new international standard for position and hold". Seems that we lost some of our prowess to the Brits.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply...yes, he there was other traffic he was separating me from, as he told me I could either accept a short approach or be routed out behind the other traffic as it was much bigger/faster than my skychicken. I said that it didn't matter to me, whatever works best for the flow. Also told him I'm in "time building mode" and being extended way out aways wasn't going to hurt my feelings. He gave me the short approach and the rest is history.
Maybe next time I'll just put a remark in the flight plan that says I want a touch and go, with VFR departure. Would that help do you think?
 
... "that's the new international standard for position and hold". Seems that we lost some of our prowess to the Brits.
The ATIS at KAUS mentioned that the "new international standard phraseology is in effect".

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/lauw/

The other one that seems to get controllers to chuckle is when people used to flying outside the US say "ready for departure" instead of "ready for takeoff". Not sure if this one will be or has been adopted in the US.
 
The other one that seems to get controllers to chuckle is when people used to flying outside the US say "ready for departure" instead of "ready for takeoff". Not sure if this one will be or has been adopted in the US.

I can't really tell you why...but I've always said "ready for departure".

(I guess it seems more appropriate when I'm not sitting on the runway, since I'm not technically ready to takeoff at that very moment on some taxiway...but am ready to be routed as appropriate for departing.)
 
I took a trip south from Michigan to Florida, planned fuel stops on the other side of some class B, I was treated differently at each. In Cincinatti I was "cleared through class Bravo airspace", in Atlanta it was "remain clear of class Bravo airspace", around Atlanta I heard "remain clear of my airspace". My intention was to fly the corridors through the airspace. If I'm told I am "cleared through the airspace" does that mean it may be a slow time with minimal traffic and I don't have to stick to the corridors? Otherwise can't I fly the vfr corridors even if they say "remain clear of B airspace"?

Dave Ford
RV6 flying, RV10 building
 
Dave....I have not used a VFR corridor myself so I am not well versed on how one should proceed. I think I saw an AOPA (perhaps it was the FAA site)online class providing guidance on this subject but I won't even begin to give advice on that one. I suspect the chart would offer more advice than I could.

As for certain times when you are granted access versus not granted access....yes, it is safe to assume the volume is generally lower and/or the controller is comfortable with taking on more responsibility than he is required to. Some controllers are more GA friendly than others....
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure if all "VFR Corridors" are the same, but in the Houston area, we have such a corridor that runs along I-10. the Houston Class B is a "double bubble", with circles of "B" to the ground over both Hobby and Intercontinental. the I-10 corridor runs between these two "inner circles", so as long as you are below 2,000', you aren't in the Class B, and the controller can't actually tell you to do anything - you aren't even required to talk to him.

Class B is Class B - you MUST have an explicit clearance to operate within it. The area surrounding it is free for VFR traffic. I have no clue what "remain clear of my airspace" means in an official, legal sense.

Paul
 
Is there really such a thing...

...as a "VFR Corridor"?

The one I am somewhat familiar with is the Los Angeles one, and it is specifically called out on the TAC as a "Los Angeles Special Flight Rules Area", with fixed requirements, including having a current LA TAC on board.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.6713797....45502956073593,-111.17041971703145:A.K2.KCGZ

The other "corridors" are also shown as VFR "Routes" and specifically require ATC clearance.

I think VFR Corridor is too generic a term to reference...:)

The Houston one is not even marked on the chart, and as Paul referenced is an E-W non-B area with a ceiling of 2000 ft between Hobby and International airports.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=29.7575791....45502956073593,-111.17041971703145:A.K2.KCGZ

I'm not sure if all "VFR Corridors" are the same, but in the Houston area, we have such a corridor that runs along I-10. the Houston Class B is a "double bubble", with circles of "B" to the ground over both Hobby and Intercontinental. the I-10 corridor runs between these two "inner circles", so as long as you are below 2,000', you aren't in the Class B, and the controller can't actually tell you to do anything - you aren't even required to talk to him.

Class B is Class B - you MUST have an explicit clearance to operate within it. The area surrounding it is free for VFR traffic. I have no clue what "remain clear of my airspace" means in an official, legal sense.

Paul
 
Last edited:
This is why I don't really want to touch this one. I am familiar with the VFR corridor through NYC and although not "B" airspace it does have specific requirements.

As far as "Remain outside my airspace" goes....I assume the controller means his B, C or D airspace as depicted on any chart.
 
What I am referring to as vfr corridor, maybe incorrectly is the airspace per the chart or gps showing the altitudes of the class airspace and the arced lines drawing that airspace. According to my current understanding as long as you don't fly within the posted altitudes of the layouts of the airspace you are not flying "in" their airspace. Is this correct?

Dave
 
Umm...yes. If you are not inside the confines of any B, C, or D airspace and vertical limits...then you are not "in" their airspace. Controllers often are responsible for airspace outside these confines but that is not what they refer to when they say "Remain clear of my airspace" (which is not a very good way of communicating that they mean B, C or D). More appropriately they should say "Remain clear of the bravo airspace" or something to that affect.
 
VFR airspace terminology

My intention was to fly the corridors through the airspace. If I'm told I am "cleared through the airspace" does that mean it may be a slow time with minimal traffic and I don't have to stick to the corridors? Otherwise can't I fly the vfr corridors even if they say "remain clear of B airspace"?

Dave Ford
RV6 flying, RV10 building

Dave, your question caught my eye as a curiousity. Just what is a VFR corridor?

(Regards Tony, pilot keying the mike here, I'll clear the channel in a moment :D)

There aren't many VFR corridors. I suspect we want to be careful we don't confuse the airspace below class B airspace or maybe transition routes (which are common) with true vfr corridors (rare). Thanks Gil for the LAX example of a corridor. It cuts right through the B, above LAX, NW bound aircraft at 4500 ft, southeast bound at 3500 ft, and class bravo is above, below, and on every side, so it is as if a hole was bored through the bravo. See AIM reference lower. Another corridor that comes to mind is the Grand Canyon VFR corridors that cross the canyon, a little bit different, but same idea (surrounded by airspace on all sides where you are NOT supposed to be)

The I-10 route, because it doesn't cut through the controlled airspace, rather it goes underneath, is VFR flyway. Class E from 700 to 2000 ft, and class G below 700ft. Granted, with a bravo on both side and all those obstacles poking up, it certainly meets the Webster def. of a corridor :eek:

I took at cursory look at Cincinatti and Atlanta TAC and didn't see any info suggesting a certain route for transitioning traffic THROUGH the class B, so no clue there. In contrast, if you take a look at SLC or Seattle TAC, you'll see transition routes clearly marked, so when you talk to ATC, that is what they will be expecting and your chances are very high of getting cleared bravo.

How about the back side of the Atlanta TAC, does it suggest VFR Flyways under the class Bravo? (don't have ATL TAC here) Is that what you ended up flying?

As to the "remain clear of my airspace"; I'd think it would be just like Tony said.. their b, c, or d airspace, but, I'd probably ask, since it really is all about clarity.

I suppose this raises another question.

Tony, What can we do as pilots to increase our chance getting, "cleared class bravo"?

best
Stan

AIM 3-5-5
b. VFR Corridors.

1. The design of a few of the first Class B airspace areas provided a corridor for the passage of uncontrolled traffic. A VFR corridor is defined as airspace through Class B airspace, with defined vertical and lateral boundaries, in which aircraft may operate without an ATC clearance or communication with air traffic control.

2. These corridors are, in effect, a "hole" through Class B airspace. (See FIG 3-5-2.) A classic example would be the corridor through the Los Angeles Class B airspace, which has been subsequently changed to Special Flight Rules airspace (SFR). A corridor is surrounded on all sides by Class B airspace and does not extend down to the surface like a VFR Flyway. Because of their finite lateral and vertical limits, and the volume of VFR traffic using a corridor, extreme caution and vigilance must be exercised.
 
Increasing your chance of getting clearance....hmmm....I like Bacardi!!! LOL

Just kidding. The easiest way, if it is even possible for the controller to accomodate, would be to communicate precisely and clearly. All to many times I hear VFR pilots that give me thier life story with long drawn out stories about their intentions. If a pilot is "thinking" on my frequency I tend to gloss over and perhaps work on other tasks while he is tying up my freq. (For example...Approach, Exp123 is 15 miles Northwe....umm...north...heading to Kilo Alpha Bravo Charlie airport....blah blah blah.) My latest pet peave is when they say KILO and then spell out the airport. Just give me the name of the airport....I probably KNOW it and I certainly don't need the KILO in the beginning. Basically....if you sound well versed i am more willing to invite you into my airspace versus somebody I will have to babysit every step of the way. (although I do take pride in helping pilots more than most if i have the time.)

Another way to try to get a clearance through the bravo is to have the previous (less busy) controller enter your intentions in the "machine" (the computer). This makes the transfer of all data about you automated and no excess workload would be involved for the receiving controller. You should ask nicely though because this treatment is definately above and beyond the normal scope of radar service.

Lastly, try to get a tour of the bravo facility one day and have a controller explain the less busy areas which would yield a more likely chance of getting clearance.
 
Question for ATC...

Do you care if I file IFR from one airport direct to destination that is 600 nm away at somewhere between 7000 and 14000 feet. Or would you prefer a VOR or airway in between. Yes, IFR GPS w /G suffix.

I've been doing this for the past couple years without any issue...just wondering what the controller's think.

Thanks,

Jim
 
VFR Traffic Advisory or Flight Following

Thanks for helping us to be better pilots and to understand how ATC is serving us.

Does ATC care which phraseology: VFR Traffic Advisory or Flight Following?

And, I hear other pilots claim that even though not /g legal, when requesting "direct" and letting ATC know they are GPS equipped, they are getting a direct routing. Your thoughts?:D
 
After reviewing my post, my description was not accurate, I was referring to the class B corridors and altitude references to those drawn out areas; flying below those lower altitudes to transition that area and not technically getting into the B airspace. So when I was referring to those as vfr corridors I was incorrect. My question then is when they say "remain clear of class Bravo", can I fly under or over the posted altitudes of Bravo without a clearance "through" the airspace?

Dave
 
After reviewing my post, my description was not accurate, I was referring to the class B corridors and altitude references to those drawn out areas; flying below those lower altitudes to transition that area and not technically getting into the B airspace. So when I was referring to those as vfr corridors I was incorrect. My question then is when they say "remain clear of class Bravo", can I fly under or over the posted altitudes of Bravo without a clearance "through" the airspace?

Dave

Yes. If you under it or over it, you are clear of it.

Under or over a Bravo shelf you would be in Class E...or if down lower than 700/1200' AGL then in Glass G. Assuming you are not in the area of a Class D underlying airport of course.

(This happens sometimes when I ask for a transition direct across IAH to get to DWH from the Southeast side of Houston. If I get "remain clear" then I just fly through the VFR corridor between IAH and HOU, outside of the Bravo. But, since I'm on flight following they will often clear me "just" inside the Bravo right at the floor altitude...I suppose it keeps me out of the way of the VFR traffic they are not talking to below me, and the primary airport traffic they are busy with above me. Always seem pretty friendly around here though. :))
 
Last edited:
My question is what is the best way to ensure that the controllers have my flight plan "In the System" when I call up for Flight Following on a long CC?

It seems that just activating a VFR flight plan with FSS does not guarantee it will be in there.

So what is the best way?

I have heard that you can file an IFR one with "For VFR Flight Following Only" in the comments and that works???

Or just file an IFR one and never ask for an IFR clearance?

Or file an VFR one and hope for the best?
 
FEHDXL...When I see that some pilot has file direct, I often am annoyed that the pilot was too lazy to file anything in between. (and some controllers won't even fix the route until the pilot calls, thus delaying his clearance as a sort of payback) If you file a few points in between I feel that at least the pilot tried even if the route is flawed. I don't file IFR from a pilot's perspective but I have heard that DUATS and such will show you the prefered route. If DUATS does not list your route for you airport, you can cheat and choose a larger airport in the vicinity of your destination and that will give you some pretty accurate guidance.

DBUDS.....advisories, following, VFR flight following.....all the same, doesn't matter.

As far as going direct somewhere I am not sure if you mean IFR or VFR...I suppose it doesn't really matter to the controller. He is RADAR monitoring your course and should you stray he will catch it....but if he doesn't and you tangle up with another aircraft then you could get into some trouble (while IFR)....just as if you strayed off your IFR clearance.

Brantel....that is an interesting question. One that I have asked myself and other people several times. I am not a flight service expert so I am unsure with how to get my VFR plan in the ATC system. I do know this though...

Many pilots are confused about this process. When you file a VFR plan with flight service and call and activate it....that really has nothing to do with the ATC system. It is merely an insurance policy that somebody will come looking for you in the event you don't "close" the plan upon arrival to your destination.

If you file an IFR clearance, pick it up, get airborne and then cancel IFR and continue VFR....your chances of being in the system are EXTREMELY good. Filing VFR as stated above does little to help you with the ATC system.

You could call your local clearance delivery controller and ask them to enter you in the system. But you will have to ask for this specifically, workload permitting, they may accomadate.
 
I understand that VFR flight plans almost never make it to the ATC "system/computer" but do all IFR flight plans get loaded in?

Is it possible to file an IFR flight plan and never request an IFR clearance but use that data for calling up and requesting VFR flight following? Will the IFR plan be in there system?

I would like to avoid obtaining an IFR clearance sometimes because I may not be IFR current or the airplane I am in may not be IFR equipped.

I just hate trying to give a busy controller/center my complex VFR routing (around special airspace etc.) on the radio while requesting VFR FF, if there is a way I can be sure that there system has my plan in there, I would love to find it and use it sometimes.
 
I understand that VFR flight plans almost never make it to the ATC "system/computer" but do all IFR flight plans get loaded in?

Is it possible to file an IFR flight plan and never request an IFR clearance but use that data for calling up and requesting VFR flight following? Will the IFR plan be in there system?

I would like to avoid obtaining an IFR clearance sometimes because I may not be IFR current or the airplane I am in may not be IFR equipped.

I just hate trying to give a busy controller/center my complex VFR routing (around special airspace etc.) on the radio while requesting VFR FF, if there is a way I can be sure that there system has my plan in there, I would love to find it and use it sometimes.

you can call and setup a profile with lockheed, then you give them your cert # and tail # and they have everything on file, they just confirm your fuel and souls on board, and you're set


but no IFR plans can't be used for VFR plans, unless the controller is nice and writes all the details down and ports it for you, but that's, well, rare around here
 
Does the controller...

....
I just hate trying to give a busy controller/center my complex VFR routing (around special airspace etc.) on the radio while requesting VFR FF, if there is a way I can be sure that there system has my plan in there, I would love to find it and use it sometimes.

...really care what your complex VFR route is?

I just fly my route under FF, and if a controller sees you do something he doesn't like, or is concerned about, he will let you know....:)

Of course, if they elect to give you vectors, especially around class B airspace, I follow them.

This happened last summer just North of Dallas while I was decending from 11,500 and weaving around towering cumulus clouds going into Sherman, TX.

The controller was concerned because one of my turns pointed me at his class B airspace - a quick reply saying I was turning to "remain VFR" took care of his concerns.

Again, does the controller care where you go as long as your are in legal airspace under VFR?
 
Controller radios

I'm a long time lurker (a Velocity guy), but this is a great forum. Created an account just so I could ask the controller a question.

I was flying in to FWA a few months back. Picked up the controller and much local traffic loud and clear a good ways out. On my call to the controller, no response. Called a few more times, no response. Now I'm getting pretty close to the Class B so begin decent (get under the first ring) and continue to call. I get a "last plane calling, unintelligible" or something along those lines. Call a few more times and either no response or "unintelligible". As I approach the inner ring, I decide to do a radio check and give a call out to one of the commercial flights. He says I'm "loud and clear" and tells me he's heard me call several times. I get a few other unsolicited call outs "load and clear". As the 430W says I'm about to enter class B, I turn due North and give them one more call.

The controller answers this time and he's NOT HAPPY, "What, you going to enter our airspace without calling, I've been watching you all the way in." I decided the radio wasn't the place to discuss, asked for permission and in I came. Landed and all was fine the rest of the way in.

So, I could hear him. I have 2 radios and 2 antennas. Tried both multiple times. Other traffic can hear me. FWA couldn't hear me for squat. I've had this problem with FWA on multiple occasions, but almost nowhere else.

So, two questions:
1) How would you, as a controller, have wanted me to handle this. I stayed clear of Class B since we weren't talking. Should I have gone high and circled on top trying to get through. Should I have circled outside the upper ring, what?
2) Do some facilities have radio problems? I've had a problem with only two places - Mansfield (MFD) and Fort Wayne (FWA). I've flown this plane throughout the midwest for the last 7 years. I do get complaints on occasion of hard to hear, but nowhere except FWA and MFD have I had consistent problems.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
Last edited:
antenna placement

Jeff, Welcome to VAF!

Is it possible that the traffic that could hear you was above and the FWA antenna was of course below? Where is the antenna in your Velocity? (nice plane, btw)
 
Mark the tape

Jeff, Welcome to VAF!

Is it possible that the traffic that could hear you was above and the FWA antenna was of course below? Where is the antenna in your Velocity? (nice plane, btw)

Should Jeff have asked the controllor to mark the tape?
 
Back
Top