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Instrument Panel Review (another one!)

lostpilot28

lostpilot28

Well Known Member
OK, my turn...I'd appreciate any feedback you all may have. The top picture is the end product "down the road" when I can afford an autopilot and the 2nd EFIS. The lower pic looks asymmetrical but money dictates one EFIS for now.

I feel like I'm missing a switch or two...not sure, but should I add a switch to kill the Autopilot?. I'm using Bob's Z11 modified for dual P-Mags and the Plane Power's internal regulator. Everything runs off of either the Main, Endurance or Battery buss...there is no "avionics buss". Comments welcome.

instpnl.jpg


instpnlmin.jpg
 
Switches...

Sonny, minor point, but you might want to separate the Strobe/Nav Light switch into two switches.

There may be occasions where the strobe will reflect back and be annoying, but the nav lights should remain on....

On my Tiger the following is a required placard...

On instrument panel:
"CAUTION: FLASHING BEACON IN CLOUDS MAY CAUSE VISUAL DISORIENTATION."
"TURN OFF STROBE IN CLOUD, FOG, OR HAZE. TAXI WITH STROBE OFF."

gil A
 
Redundancy

I'm a real fan of redundancy. I've got nothing against MGL products, but you're putting all of your eggs in one basket. I'd want at least a second airspeed indicator. Some people use GPS groundspeed as a emergency backup, but if your EFIS goes out, you lose that also. An airspeed indicator and altimeter would look great above your radio stack.

I just read that the new Icom radio has a built in VOX intercom, so that may be an option if you're trying to save some money and panel space. Of course, there are a lot of guys that like having a separate intercom also.

With Dynon's new autopilot feature, you may be able to replace both autopilot boxes and the second EFIS with a Dynon in the future. With two different brands of EFIS the likelihood of simultaneous failure due to software or hardware design is greatly reduced.

FWIW,
Paige
RV-8A
 
Software?

I agree with the redundancy comments above.

May I ask what software you used to draw your panel? It dosen't look like EPanelbuilder.

Thanks,

Neal

[email protected]

RV-9A
working on second wing
 
So far, so good...keep 'em coming...

Thanks guys. Gil, great suggestion regarding the Nav/Strobe switch.

Neal, I used Microsoft Visio. The cool thing about the downloaded cad file from Van's is that when you start adding pictures of instruments you can resize them to the correct proportional size because there's a measurement indicator for each picture.

OK, so about redundancy...I like redundancy, too. But the MGL units connect together as to give you a Master/Slave setup but if one fails then the other takes over as the Master. The only way to lose both would be for the AHRS module to **** out. Some guys spring for 2 of those, but I'm not one of them. I should also mention that I don't ever plan on flying "hard IFR".

Also, MGL is incorporating their own built-in autopilot just like Dynon. I really am becoming a fan of MGL's stuff, though because their product is very feature rich for the cost. Because each EFIS has it's own built in GPS, I can skip the handheld (when I've got 2 EFIS's, that is).

I don't (can't?) fly IFR yet, but when I do, then the 2nd EFIS and autopilot will be necessary (imho). I would also add a 2nd radio (SL30 probably) to get glideslope and use the A200 as the backup comm.

So, the single-EFIS-panel is just a daytime VFR panel until I get more cash. I do have a Lowrance Airmap 500 which I could use if I really needed to for Airspeed.
 
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A minor thing...

It look like a great panel that should meet your mission needs for a long time to come. I have a minor suggestion about separating the Carb Heat from the Cabin Heat. I know that there would be no confussion by the owner/pilot but we should always consider how logical the panel is to someone else who will be flying it for the first time. Having the Carh Heat and Flaps right around the throttle makes good sense but what is the rational for having an environmental control right next to a engine control? Obviously it looks good in balancing the panel layout but the Cabin Heat would look just as good on the far right side.

Okay, now everyone do what I do and separate the heat controls!

Have a great day,

Nick
 
I highly recommend some kind of traffic monitor device.

Up here in the Vancouver airspace, Nav Canada is now recommending these devices for all aircraft. I've flown with one for 4 years and it's truly an eye-opener.

Vern
 
vlittle said:
I highly recommend some kind of traffic monitor device.

Up here in the Vancouver airspace, Nav Canada is now recommending these devices for all aircraft. I've flown with one for 4 years and it's truly an eye-opener.

Vern
Click to expand...

Hi Vern, I'd like to go that route when money permits...probably the Zaon unit. The cool thing with the MGL is that it interfaces to the Zaon and displays the traffic on the EFIS. :D

Nick, I know what you're saying...the 2 knobs should be separated. Any suggestions for a good location within reach of the pilot?
 
My planned upgrade panel is similar to yours with space for 2 MGL Voyagers in the long run (one to start). Some differences are that I'm doing a modular panel approach with a center 'stack'. Initially in the center stack will be the backup GPS. That can go away later with the second EFIS. Also to the left of the 1st Voyager, I plan to have some basic backup instruments (ASI, ALT, etc). That's just my personal preference until I get 'comfortable' with the EFIS.
 
Sonny,

Like the others, the panel looks good. Here are a few of my thoughts.

1. Replace the master toggle with a slit Cessna Master switch.
2. Move the ELT panel way over to the right. You won't need that except in the rare event. Or move the intercom to the left and put it on the same "row". See this picture to get an idea of what I'm talking about:

3. Swap the carb heat and flap switch placements. That way you can push the carb heat in with your thumb and toggle the flaps up with your middle finger on a go around. Click on the this pictures to see what I'm talking about:

The way you have it configured you will have to move your hand off the throttle to toggle the flaps up or down. This way your hand can stay on the throttle when raising or lowering the flaps.
4. Move the cabin heat over the far right side. You will still be able to reach it while strapped in.
5. Put the fuel pump to the left of the newly relocated carb heat. (Don’t forget to space the carb heat far enough to the left of the throttle quadrant that you can pull it out. Same goes for the spacing of the flap switch, make it close enough that you can reach it with your hand on the throttle quadrant. There are more pictures of my layout on my web page, you might want to check it out.)
6. Put a space between the fuel pump and the other switches so you don't accidently hit it on or off. While you are at it, put a green fuel pump on light top dead center, above your main EFIS. This is a check list item and that light will tell you if you forget to turn the pump on or left it on in cruise.
7. Fuses or breakers? I see no placement for either. If using fuses, you can use a three way position for the strobes and landing lights, per Aeroelectric Bob. Down is off, middle it nav lights, and up is nav and strobes.
 
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Sonny,

In addition to the excellent suggests above, I'd suggest moving your "EFIS backup battery" switch over to the right side of the panel somewhere -- for the same reason that Bill R. suggested moving the ELT over there: it's a rarely used item.
 
Placards

smithhb said:
Gil, Other than the Passenger Warning, what are, or where can I find the "required" placards for an RV-9?
Click to expand...

No required placards on experimentals, other than the Passenger Warning you mention.

I just pointed out the required one on my Tiger to show that strobes and nav lights switches should be separated.

An example of the certified required placards can be found on this TCDS...

http://www.aucountry.com/ACA_Folder/Technical/Type_Cert/AA5B_Type.html

...you wonder how many are pilot required and how many are lawyer required...:rolleyes:

gil A

PS .. placards might be used to define limits that are not marked on instruments...
 
Speaking of eggs in a basket! I just can't get my head around the integral autopilot thing. If you lose yours monitors how do you control the autopilot, it'll keep you straight and level as long as you don't mess with it, but what if you "do" find yourself in hard IFR and need to change something and you have no frame of reference. I'm sticking with a separate Tru-trak connected to everything else.
 
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Not to Initiate Another Controversy, but.....

It is obvious, from reading these posts, and the many others on the topic, that some people are just more comfortable with typical guages as part of their redundancy. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all have to fly within our comfort levels. However, there is also nothing wrong with configurations such as the one here, that choose to NOT use staem guages.

There is more than one way to provide reasonable redundancy, but there is NO way to provide 100% redundancy(that's another topic). Before suggesting that additional guages be added, more questions should be asked about things such as multiple busses, standby backup batteries, etc.. They are not obvious from looking at the panel, but provide all the redundancy of additional guages.

I feel strongly that, while I want to move carefully forward with technology, I nonetheless want to move foreward. You will not be seeing any steam guages in my panel (unless I can find a WWII fighter guage that I could make use of, since I'm a WWII fighter buff), and you will probably NOT see the redundancy, but there will be plenty there!

The suggestions about redundancy might have been better phrased as questions or even a "don't forget about redundancy". However, I can't agree with the suggestions to use any ONE particular form of redundancy. What I CAN agree with is that there are different solutions and different levels of redundancy and that we need to consider the topic seriously as builders.

I think that those making these suggestions have their hearts and intent in the right place and most builders interpret it that way, including me. I believe there is a sincere attempt to help. But, I did want to use this example to try and raise awareness and sensitivities on the topic, without flaming anybody or any position. However, writing is a tough business; we all can't write like Bob Collins (sincere complement intended, Bob). If I've insulted anybody here, please accept my apologies!
 
N941WR said:
Sonny,

Like the others, the panel looks good. Here are a few of my thoughts.

1. Replace the master toggle with a slit Cessna Master switch.

6. Put a space between the fuel pump and the other switches so you don't accidently hit it on or off. While you are at it, put a green fuel pump on light top dead center, above your main EFIS. This is a check list item and that light will tell you if you forget to turn the pump on or left it on in cruise.
Click to expand...


Certainly don't want to pick nits with anyone, but the "master toggle" has worked great in my plane for many years. Not sure why you would want a split Cessna switch. This is assuming you have some sort of over-voltage protection for your alternator that will take it off-line automatically if needed.

Another useful indicator light is a "starter" light. I have one wired to the starter side of the starter solenoid so it will indicate a stuck solenoid if it is still lit after I release the starter switch.
 
Bill Ervin said:
Speaking of eggs in a basket! I just can't get my head around the integral autopilot thing. If you lose yours monitors how do you control the autopilot, it'll keep you straight and level as long as you don't mess with it, but what if you "do" find yourself in hard IFR and need to change something and you have no frame of reference. I'm sticking with a separate Tru-trak connected to everything else.
Click to expand...

I'm leaning toward the separate Trio autopilot just because of this. The added cost of a standalone autopilot & altitude hold is around $2,500 (not including servos). So there has to be some cost justification...but for the very occasional "break through a marine layer to takeoff or land" scenario, it may not be worth it. I don't plan on flying IFR hardly ever...and if it looks like "hard IFR" I probably just won't fly that day.

macrafic said:
... but there is NO way to provide 100% redundancy(that's another topic).
Click to expand...

Nicely said, Rich...I agree with you 100%. I'm concerned with "reasonable" redundancy. A spare 0-360 engine waiting to take over for the primary would be great...but it's not reasonable.

That said, I think dual EFIS's that run on separate buss's is perfectly acceptable to me. The primary runs off the Essential Buss, and the 2nd EFIS runs off the Main buss. There will be a 2.5 Ah backup battery for the EFIS's alone. The P-mags are self-powering, and that leaves the battery to run the comm, transponder and Autopilot if needed. I think I'd land ASAP if I had electrical problems.
 
Bill, thanks for the great tips. I like Bob Nuckolls' DPDT Master switch idea. I also like your idea of swapping the flap switch and carb heat around...makes sense.

I'm going with Fuses. The 3 fuse blocks (batt, main, essential) are mounted up under the panel where I can't get to them in flight (I like it that way, so no offense to those that don't!).
 
switches

In my -8 I used a single 3 position switch for the nav/strobe. The middle turns both nav and strobes off. Down is nav only. Up is nav & strobe. This allows for just nav or nav and strobe. By having Nav in the down positon, when I shut down all my switches are in the down / off position. If I forget to turn the master off, the nav lights are still on to remind me. Saves space, saves money.
 
I personally am using steam for my main guages, and the D180 for everything else. Why, I don't want to put a whole bunch of money into the panel. I also fly over 300hrs a year and if the D180 needs to get worked on, so what, I'll have everything I need in backup, I still fly. I have no problem with a single switch for master, my other plane has that, so will this one, along with two toggle switches for the mags. I'm only putting the ptt in the stick, I bought a minnie switch from B&C for that. I guess I rather fly out the window than get too involved with the panel, which by the way, I will be able to land my airplane without any guages, I'm doing that with the plane I have currently, not a big issue for me, than again I do over 5000 touch and goes a year as well.
 
BuckWynd said:
Sonny,

In addition to the excellent suggests above, I'd suggest moving your "EFIS backup battery" switch over to the right side of the panel somewhere -- for the same reason that Bill R. suggested moving the ELT over there: it's a rarely used item.
Click to expand...

Buck,
Actually it'll be used every time the electrical system is turned on or off. The reason is that the MGL wiring is setup so that the EFIS runs off the backup battery when no other power is applied.

If you kept the switch on all the time then it would drain the battery between flights and would take a long time to charge back up. If you kept the switch off, it never trickle charges the backup battery. So, on when the power comes on, off when it goes off. I figured a switch next to the Ebuss would be appropriate.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Another useful indicator light is a "starter" light. I have one wired to the starter side of the starter solenoid so it will indicate a stuck solenoid if it is still lit after I release the starter switch.
Click to expand...

Speaking of Indicator lights...the MGL EFIS has a(nother) cool feature if you connect the I/O extender module (~ $150). If I understand it correctly, it can detect analog signals (like trim and flap position sensors) and hi/lo signals...I would use the "hi" signal to flash a warning on the EFIS for a stuck starter, or lo for a dead alternator, etc.

Of course, you can also have it give you an aural warning - which I plan to use. I love betty. :D
 
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lostpilot28 said:
I'm going with Fuses. The 3 fuse blocks (batt, main, essential) are mounted up under the panel where I can't get to them in flight (I like it that way, so no offense to those that don't!).
Click to expand...
Sonny,

Even though you don't plan on getting to the fuses in flight, design and install your fuse panel so it flips down. This will just make future maintenance easier. There is nothing worse than pulling out a seat and sliding under the panel, head first, to work on something.

From this point on, plan everything with future maintenance in mind.

To this end I used lots of plate nuts and Adel clamps secured with cap screws. The cap screws were used because they are much easier to install and remove than Phillips head screws. You can see some of the plate nuts and Adel clamps I used in this picture:
 
OK, newest Revision

OK, I've used some of your suggestions. Bill R., I sat in my plane and found that with my hand on the throttle I was more comfortable with the flaps on the left and the carb heat on the right...not sure why, but chalk it up to personal preference.

I've also added the emergency brake, a 12V DC plug and rearranged the switches. I feel good about everything at this point. Thanks for everyone's help!

instpnl2.jpg
 
lostpilot28 said:
Bill R., I sat in my plane and found that with my hand on the throttle I was more comfortable with the flaps on the left and the carb heat on the right...not sure why, but chalk it up to personal preference.
Click to expand...
No problem at all. Remember, this is your plane, build it the way you want it and don't let anyone tell you you must do it their way.

I put the flaps to the right of the TQ because that is where it was on the plane I learned to fly in. There is nothing wrong with your location, as long as you are happy with it.

In my panel layout, I arranged the switches by what I call "phase of flight" rather than function. Thus all the lights are not grouped together.

One thing I did was to put together a full size panel moc up and looked at every day for two months. In that time I kept moving things around until I was happy with it.
 
az_gila said:
Sonny, minor point, but you might want to separate the Strobe/Nav Light switch into two switches.

There may be occasions where the strobe will reflect back and be annoying, but the nav lights should remain on....

On my Tiger the following is a required placard...

On instrument panel:
"CAUTION: FLASHING BEACON IN CLOUDS MAY CAUSE VISUAL DISORIENTATION."
"TURN OFF STROBE IN CLOUD, FOG, OR HAZE. TAXI WITH STROBE OFF."

gil A
Click to expand...

Or you can do as I did and use a switch where down is OFF, center is NAV, and up is NAV and STROBE. That way still only 1 switch.

Steve
RV7A
 
The concept of going with a cardboard mockup panel is an excellent one. I made a mockup with colour pictures of all the bits and pieces taped to the cardboard. That sat where I could see it from my office for over a month. Then I had a pilot friend over for a visit and as we sat in the living room I could see him eyeing up my panel mockup. He's a great guy and so didn't want to bruise my ego, but couldn't help himself and had to make a suggestion. That suggestion entailed large-scale change in the panel layout.

After another month or so of staring at the mockup I made a couple of minor tweaks and then cut the metal. Now, with about 40 hours on the new panel, I can honestly say that my investment in cardboard and scaled pictures was worth every second of time I put into it. And my friend's suggestions are what transformed this panel from a "good" panel to a "great" panel. After flying behind this panel I wouldn't change a thing, except I might consider using an electric primer instead of the Essex primer mounted in the panel. "Might" - I'm still not sure this luddite wants to depend on an electric primer. ;-)
 
One quick point to add... Others here have suggested moving the ELT switch to the far side of the panel because it is infrequently used. I would caution against this approach. When you need to use an ELT switch the situation is grave and you likely won't have a whole lot of spare time on your hands. For that reason I would suggest mounting the ELT switch where it can quickly and easily be reached by your non-flying hand. Mine's installed under the EFIS do so I can hit it with either hand if necessary.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
One quick point to add... Others here have suggested moving the ELT switch to the far side of the panel because it is infrequently used. I would caution against this approach. When you need to use an ELT switch the situation is grave and you likely won't have a whole lot of spare time on your hands. For that reason I would suggest mounting the ELT switch where it can quickly and easily be reached by your non-flying hand. Mine's installed under the EFIS do so I can hit it with either hand if necessary.
Click to expand...


You are also more apt to see the little LED flashing due to a false trigger if the ELT panel is in front of you.

Did I miss the aux fuel pump switch on the panel layout?

My panel has toggles, starting from the left, for master, fuel pump, left mag, right mag, strobes, etc, (the starter is off by itself so I can't hit it accidentally). That way the prestart flow is to start from the left and work to the right across the switches. Makes it harder to leave something out...... :)
 
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Breakers

Sonny,

AeroElectric Bob's fuse based schematics still utilize a few breakers....

Are these on the panel, or have you hidden them somewhere?

gil A
 
az_gila said:
Sonny,

AeroElectric Bob's fuse based schematics still utilize a few breakers....

Are these on the panel, or have you hidden them somewhere?

gil A
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,
You must've read a different Aerolectric Connection. ;) Just kidding...Bob actually says that you can use breakers, but fuses are cheaper and easier. I'm wondering why anyone would use breakers considering the cost.

Aside from that, I almost used one 60-Amp breaker for the Alt Field, but ended up deciding to use his really-big-60-Amp-fuse idea instead (mounted just like Dan C's). I like the idea of keeping the high current lines out of the cockpit.

My last airplane (Pulsar XP) had lots of RF issues and I'll do anything at this point to avoid that frustration. Even if it means doing exactly as Bob suggests by keeping the large wire runs around 6 inches...which is partially my reason for having the fuse blocks mounted way up front.

I like the idea of a flip-down panel, but that's a minor convenience. Besides, if the fuses protect the wires, and your system is wired correctly, you should never want to change a fuse (or push in a breaker) in flight. Aside from the maintenance hassle of "diving" under the panel head-first, doing it this way is preferable to me...and you should only have a couple instances where you'll have to change a fuse (shorted wire or malfunctioning equipment). I know somebody will tell me there are other reasons! ;)
 
lostpilot28 said:
I know somebody will tell me there are other reasons! ;)
Click to expand...

I have read Bob's book many times, and agree with him on about 95% of everything he says. I personally prefer circuit breakers, not so much for in-flight use, but for the fact that during installation, development, and maintenance, I frequently find that I am energizing and de-energizing circuits, over, and over again. I don't' want to mess up your thread with a debate on EFIS power during engine start, but when I turn on my Master, my EFIS and EIS boxes come up - no switches,. If I want to power cycle them for testing purposes, software loads, etc, I pull breakers. It is a whole lot easier (for me) to reach down by my knee and cycle the AHRS breaker to reboot than if I had concealed fuses. I'm not saying that this is for everyone - or anyone but myself in fact - but it is something that some folks may not have thought about. Maintenance, test, and checkout will be big parts of your life when working on an electronically-oriented experimental aircraft.

Paul
 
AeroElctric Bob does use some breakers

lostpilot28 said:
Hi Gil,
You must've read a different Aerolectric Connection. ;) Just kidding...Bob actually says that you can use breakers, but fuses are cheaper and easier. I'm wondering why anyone would use breakers considering the cost.

Aside from that, I almost used one 60-Amp breaker for the Alt Field, but ended up deciding to use his really-big-60-Amp-fuse idea instead (mounted just like Dan C's). I like the idea of keeping the high current lines out of the cockpit.

My last airplane (Pulsar XP) had lots of RF issues and I'll do anything at this point to avoid that frustration. Even if it means doing exactly as Bob suggests by keeping the large wire runs around 6 inches...which is partially my reason for having the fuse blocks mounted way up front.

I like the idea of a flip-down panel, but that's a minor convenience. Besides, if the fuses protect the wires, and your system is wired correctly, you should never want to change a fuse (or push in a breaker) in flight. Aside from the maintenance hassle of "diving" under the panel head-first, doing it this way is preferable to me...and you should only have a couple instances where you'll have to change a fuse (shorted wire or malfunctioning equipment). I know somebody will tell me there are other reasons! ;)
Click to expand...

I only said some breakers...:D

Actually not, I read the same book.....:)....the basic Z-11 schematic shows 1 breaker - ALT FIELD, and the dual alternator/single battery option seems to show 5 on Z-12. The dual battery/Dual Alternator Z-14 uses two breakers.

Check the exact Z schematic that you intend to use.....:)

I fully agree that not bringing the heavy wire and a 60 Amp breaker/fuse inside the cabin is a good idea. The ANL is a good solution.

gil A
 
az_gila said:
... Z-11 schematic shows 1 breaker - ALT FIELD, and the dual alternator/single battery option seems to show 5 on Z-12. The dual battery/Dual Alternator Z-14 uses two breakers.
Click to expand...

Doh! You are correct...I omitted the 5A breaker because my Alternator has internal over-voltage protection (Plane Power) do I didn't copy that part of Bob's Z-11 schematic. But, the Plane Power schematic shows having the Field Switch inline with a 5A breaker...I think originally I was just going to use a 5A fuse and didn't give it a 2nd thought. Is there any reason I should not use a fuse for this? I'm trying to think of an instance where I'll want to pull the Field breaker and reset it (in flight).

Paul, you make an excellent point. The MGL EFIS does not have a power switch so cycling would require flipping the Master switch. I'm already committed to using fuses, so my alternate thinking would be to add a switch for each EFIS. Not sure I like the idea of loading up my panel with switches, though. I can certainly see the value that you're pointing out with regards to maintenance. The good thing about my panel though is that everything else does have an on/off switch (comm, xpndr, intercom), so using the Master Switch on the ground is essentially the same thing. I'm open to further discussion on this, too...If my thinking is going down the wrong path, please let me know! :)
 
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