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Air conditioner for RV 10

Would you own a $250K luxury automobile without A/C?

I wouldn't put in an aerobatic, bush, or light sport for obvious reasons, but I wouldn't have a luxo-cruiser in which I would be carrying friends and family without it.
 
Would you own a $250K luxury automobile without A/C?

I wouldn't put in an aerobatic, bush, or light sport for obvious reasons, but I wouldn't have a luxo-cruiser in which I would be carrying friends and family without it.

There are always trade offs, of course, beyond the obvious dollars. The other obvious one is weight. Do you want a three adult luxo-cruiser, or a four adult airplane that’s warm (or hot) on the ground? This is why different folks make different choices.
 
Lower OAT at altitude with the "fan" on

I agree with Bob. And I do have a nice car, but it stays on the ground 100% of the time (that we know of ;) )

I evaluated A/C thoroughly for my -10, which included cost comparison of available systems, system specs and performance, installation costs and effort and impacts on the airframe (weight, drag, maintenance, installation and access). I concluded it would be wonderful on the ground and down low, and my wife wanted it...but looking at our normal mission, that very often includes four people, we agreed a higher usable load was more important. Which includes utilizing the lighter weight and improved usable load to climb a bit faster to take advantage of the lapse rate of temperature at altitude - and putting the saved money toward the fuel to do so.
 
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AC or not

It depends on the mission. After flying my 14 for 3 years in Florida I can quickly get to 10,000 ft. where the air in July is 70 F. If I had A/C would need to haul 60 lbs. added baggage with me. Plus the added drag of the intake system slows me down 3 to 4 knots. I'm building a 10 now and would not think about A/C. Maybe if I lived in Houston and needed to taxi 30 to 40 minutes on the ground. We are experimental builder, go forth and prosper......
 
Desert heat

I live in Tucson and have 900 hours on my RV10.

In the summer knowing it will get hot we typically fly in the morning. By “WE “ I mean most Az pilots.

Occasionally I wish I had AC, but for the most my “Climbs like a Rocket RV10” gets me to cool air pretty quickly.
 
but I wouldn't have a luxo-cruiser in which I would be carrying friends and family without it.

Similar to Bob's opinion, there are trade off's to be made. I would argue that you probably can't carry family and friends with A/C if that family/friends equaled 4 contemporary, adult sized people; Maybe if they were highly limited in baggage allotment or if they were long distance runners.

My recommendation to people considering this option is to estimate total weight (based upon the polls on this site, as it appears very few built are in the neighborhood of Van's weight numbers) and then add in the AC (weights well documented). Then determine what you can carry as a load with full fuel. This allows for better decision making IMHO.

Larry
 
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Why not use ice cube based "air conditioner"

Has anyone tried this solution ? It is a cooler with a fan that blows air through packs of ice cubes.

https://www.icybreeze.com/

Assume it works, it can be modified to work for more than one person. Ideally, the main box can be placed in the baggage area, and with X-number of air hoses routed toward the X-number of occupants.

Those needing heavy ballast can afford a bigger cooler or multiple big coolers:).
 
I'm based in Tampa. My wife refuses to get into the plane without a working air-conditioner. You can decide if that's a plus or minus. :-D
 
Don't think I've posted a pic before, so not sure what you'll get.
Kinda like her hair, you never know what you're gonna get on any given day. But regardless of hair color, she wants AC in the plane. We've had other pilots make fun of it, but after experiencing it they usually admit that it's pretty nice.
https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOgHuZwhh5nr-NvpMvuWg7MsRF6BwaI5jN2dnVe

https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipP1fuSkJqfVzW8ixf0RCCIp7e4EfB7Y8lkvQKyD

https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipO9IvJJOgQJE_lUE4nGWvHZecocfjFdkdWbtSdE



https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOeF5XmyvqoUhATg-WAeMAsBU7otyfU4mg1XTeP
 
In the summer knowing it will get hot we typically fly in the morning. By “WE “ I mean most Az pilots.

I flew for about two years in El Paso (all in planes w/out AC, including a lot of flight training). Even though we're more like New Mexican pilots than Az pilots, I 100% agree w/ this sentiment. Even if you could stay cool in the afternoon, it's going to be a very bumpy climb to smooth air, and smooth air is probably high enough that you won't need AC.

In San Antonio now and I often wish I had AC on the ground, but I bought a side window scoop for my Arrow and am going to see how that works.

I have heard of "portable" AC systems that run off 12V electrical systems and are self contained. These systems require slightly bigger alternators on the certified airplanes, but I don't believe the system itself is STCed. Has anyone heard of something like this? It eliminates the engine driven compressor and intake, from what I understand.
 
There are always trade offs, of course, beyond the obvious dollars. The other obvious one is weight. Do you want a three adult luxo-cruiser, or a four adult airplane that’s warm (or hot) on the ground? This is why different folks make different choices.

Great summary of the trade offs! I’m in south Texas with 100+ days in summer. When I fly alone, wish I had it. On trips with four adults, bags, and fuel, I’m glad I don’t.

I do have straps tied to gear leg support (in cabin) that ties to door handle so I can get plenty of prop wash with doors open about 2”. It’s been a great solution for those of us that covet useful load over comfort for a short time on hot summer days.
 
I have heard of "portable" AC systems that run off 12V electrical systems and are self contained. These systems require slightly bigger alternators on the certified airplanes, but I don't believe the system itself is STCed. Has anyone heard of something like this? It eliminates the engine driven compressor and intake, from what I understand.

Not practical.

An electric A/C system that can produce the 8K BTU minimum to be worthwhile is going to require at least a 120A alternator and even with that, you will be draining the batteries pretty fast on the ground, as 120A Alternators produce around 2/3 of that at idle, though some tweaking of the pulley sizes can improve that some.

Those are 110 or 220 AC systems. 12VDC systems top out around 2K BTUs with 24VDC systems getting to 3 or 4K. If you use a DC alternator, you lose around 25% of power in the conversion to AC and produce a decent amount of heat. Alternators are actually AC generators with rectifiers that strip it down to half wave / DC. It can be gutted and converted to AC for greater efficiency, but then a good bit of work is required to keep the cycles at 60 Hz, typically dictated by generator RPM.

Larry
 
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Not practical.

An electric A/C system that can produce the 8K BTU minimum to be worthwhile is going to require at least a 120A alternator and even with that, you will be draining the batteries pretty fast on the ground, as 120A Alternators produce around 2/3 of that at idle, though some tweaking of the pulley sizes can improve that some.

One needs at least 8K BTU to cool down the entire cockpit, while you only feel the temperature of a small area near the body. As a matter of fact one can feel comfortable if the body's core and the head are cooled down, which should need a small fraction of energy that is needed to cool down everything, including the luggage.

Is there a reason this was never considered ?
 
12 Volt AC in RV-10

At Sun-N-Fun this year there was a new vendor selling totally self contained R134 12/24 volt systems. I cannot remember the name. You would need to exhaust the hot air output from the condenser coil out the back through the rear baggage bulkhead. It would be fairly simple to install. I remember them being about 4-5 K. they did use up to 80-100 amps at 12 volts. If you just use while on the ground, you could hook up a 100 AMP-HR lithium to it and be just fine for 1 hour.

This should get you up off the ground to cool air. It would be possible to charge the battery while airborne. It would also be removable when you need the added load capability.

http://www.arcticaircooler.com/default.asp used to sell a similar set of two models. It appears they have been discontinued. I have one that used to work and was tested in an RV-10. I just need a new control board if I cannot get it repaired myself. $350.00. It uses up to 40 amps max and I believe the output is around 6K BTU.
 
I haven't done the math but perhaps the weight savings of a composite prop vs the conventional 2-blade aluminum Hartzell would balance out the added weight of the A/C enough to make it a viable option.
 
The vast majority of the builders in my day set their MGW at 2800 instead of 2700. There have to be hundreds flying at the higher weight and they still are such stellar performers that they blow spam cans away. A lot of people who don't choose A/C, still do overhead consoles which is a large percentage of the A/C package weight.
There are a lot of very valid reasons to not choose A/C, but IMO performance degradation due to weight is not one of them.
One other point. Temperature is just part of the justification for A/C. Another huge one is humidity. Not only is humidity uncomfortable, but it is damaging to avionics, interior materials and interior structure. There's a reason old airplanes smell like they do. It is amazing how much water gets dumped overboard by the use of A/C.

A/C, 3-blade props, soundproofing, electro-wizzies galore, the beauty of our avocation is that one can build the way they want.
 
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I have the Airflow Systems A/C. IMO the weight and the load on the engine are too small to noticeably effect speed. The scoop on the bottom, on the other hand, probably costs me 3-5 knots at cruise, which is irrelevant for most flights.
 
I have the Airflow Systems A/C. IMO the weight and the load on the engine are too small to noticeably effect speed. The scoop on the bottom, on the other hand, probably costs me 3-5 knots at cruise, which is irrelevant for most flights.
Tyson, I don't recall - did your plane have A/C when you bought it or did you retrofit?
 
If you just use while on the ground, you could hook up a 100 AMP-HR lithium to it and be just fine for 1 hour.

You will find that most lithium battery sellers use PB equivalent ratings. That means that a 100 Ah battery can deliver 100 amps for about 5-10 minutes. Even Lead Acid batteries set the Ah rating at the 10 or 20 hour reserve level. My 18Ah SLA battery will only give me about 10-11 amps for an hour and a PB equivilancy is 1/3 of that. It is rare to find a battery that can actually deliver upon it Ah rating; The industry just doesn't work that way.

Larry
 
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. A lot of people who don't choose A/C, still do overhead consoles which is a large percentage of the A/C package weight.
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Lets try to keep our assistance to realistic data here. I put in an aerosport O/H console. It is carbon fiber and can't weigh more than 3 lbs. AC system data that I have seen put the weight in the neighborhood of 50 lbs. Not sure that I would classify 6% as a "large percentage."

To the OP, the O/H vents are quite effective on the ground and provide a good stream of air directly to your head. They do help to take the edge off on very hot days and find it worth the 3 lb penalty.

Larry
 
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You will find that most lithium battery sellers use PB equivalent ratings. That means that a 100 Ah battery can deliver 100 amps for about 5-10 minutes. Even Lead Acid batteries set the Ah rating at the 10 or 20 hour reserve level. My 18Ah SLA battery will only give me about 10-11 amps for an hour and a PB equivilancy is 1/3 of that. It is rare to find a battery that can actually deliver upon it Ah rating; The industry just doesn't work that way.

Larry

What?! Larry...I don't want to derail this fine discussion on A/C, so I've posted a response to this in the Electrical Forum. For those who don't want to go there, in a nutshell, if a battery doesn't provide at least 80% of it's rating, it's a failed battery and should be replaced.

...now back to the justification of adding weight... ;)
 
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